Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

maximus419 said:
Exactly, Putin is making the threat and people are so weak it's like okay Vlad, anything you say, would you like fries with that.

Pathetically weak and this is why the likes of Putin exist. We need stronger aggressive leaders in the west, we have become so weak. An old senile president and a clown in the UK, it's no wonder Putin knows he can do what he pleases.
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He can't though. NATO exists for a reason, he won't dare invade a NATO country - Ukraine is as far as his crusade goes. He attacks a Baltic NATO state and the world wipes the floor with him.
 
Simbo said:
Odessa is in south west, next to Moldova. Amphibious landings.
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Oh right, Odessa is indeed geographically close to Moldova on the Western borders. I was thinking more in term of demographics.

Raoul said:
Southwestern Ukraine is, since that is where Odessa is located. There have been explosions there over night.

I think Putin is planning on taking Novorossiya + Kharkiv, which would stretch from Kharkiv to Odessa and everything south of Dnieprpetrovsk. Then create a frozen conflict in northern Ukraine just as he did in Donbas over the past 8 years, so he can control Kiev without the burden of having to occupy it.
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Yeah that seems to be the plan, which looked like the more sensible option from the start.
 
Raoul said:
Time to sanction Belarus as well
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They’re already heavily sanctioned. I work for an FX company and they’re on the banned list alongside the likes of North Korea and Syria.
 
maximus419 said:
Pathetically weak and this is why the likes of Putin exist. We need stronger aggressive leaders in the west, we have become so weak. An old senile president and a clown in the UK, it's no wonder Putin knows he can do what he pleases.
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The west has been ruled by the baby boomers for too long.

Gotta keep the status quo rather then bringing in younger leaders.
 
Raoul said:
Time to sanction Belarus as well
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This will be done, I guess. A coordinated effort from US, EU, Japan etc will kill Russian and Belarussian economies. This is the only way to stop further escalation unless you go into a direct conflict.
 
Look guys I completely support self-determination from each country but in a real world stuff doesn’t work like that. I just wish America and Russia signed some accord and let Ukraine into EU but not in NATO. Let them be like Finland. There was room for diplomacy here but no one wanted it.
 
Droid_Repairs said:
He can't though. NATO exists for a reason, he won't dare invade a NATO country - Ukraine is as far as his crusade goes. He attacks a Baltic NATO state and the world wipes the floor with him.
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Even if he decides he will and threaten nukes himself as he did Ukraine?
 
Suedesi said:
I'm hoping cooler heads will prevail - none wants WW3
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A pipe dream, sorry to say it. At the start of WW2, the Allies did a major mistake by not properly hitting back at Germany when Poland was torn to shreds; that was called the Phoney War. Last thing we need is a lack of serious action from the West, which would only embolden Putin further and allow more war crimes to be committed.
 
Paxi said:
Look guys I completely support self-determination from each country but in a real world stuff doesn’t work like that. I just wish America and Russia signed some accord and let Ukraine into EU but not in NATO. Let them be like Finland. There was room for diplomacy here but no one wanted it.
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There was no room for diplomacy with Russian government after Georgia and Crimea. From now on the diplomacy will be of even lesser use. Make no mistake Russia will lose so much more than it will gain after today. The economic power of the west is incomparable to that of Russia's. The latter are already lagging behind technologically, and from this time on the gap will only grow. Welcome to new Russia - the richest country in the world when it comes to land and mineral resources but one of the poorest ones in Europe.
 
Water Melon said:
There was no room for diplocamy with Russian government after Georgia and Crimea. From now on the diplomacy will be of even lesser use. Make no mistake Russia will lose so much more than it will gain after today.
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There was. They drew a line with Ukraine and NATO. There could have been trilateral talks there to sort out its NATO status and the status of DNR and LNR. Absolutely something could have been worked out.
 
maximus419 said:
Even if he decides he will and threaten nukes himself as he did Ukraine?
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We didn't defend Ukraine because it's not a NATO ally. Not because of his nuclear rhetoric.

He can threaten nukes all he wants, unless he wants to die, and for everybody else in the world to die, he can't use them. If he attacks a NATO country, all other NATO members are obligated to defend it. It was designed specifically to stop Russian aggression in the first place.
 
Time to rob Russia blind. We'll pay for the gas using the oligarchs money and assets.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
exactly, and threatening this flip side is what actually prevents large scale wars.
The west never should have backed down the way it did beforehand. Some say we've become so weak because of china and russia, but military speaking, we are not. We should send an immediate western threat to show that the behavior is not to be tolerated and can lead to actual war. So far, Putin knows he can do whatever he wants, because he knows there will be no repercussion, but that's the tragedy. If he at least feared it could by a small percentage result in a military involvement of the NATO allies, this would not be possible. Thing is, and it's a dreadful thought imo, but where will Putin stop now that he can freely operate? When the annexion of Krim happened, appeasement was our reaction. Now that the ukraine is getting invaded, we don't react either. Maybe it is time to see historical parallels to other cases of appeasement politics and where it led to. Because he won't stop there. It might just mark the beginning of further russian expansion and while it might be true that the west is on decline, it's still strong and a sleeping giant.
I say: send the reaction, threaten a total escalation and it won't come to that. It's the thought that it might come to that, that could prevent this.
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this is so fecking dumb.

The West/EU should have never gone in the Ukraine in the first place. It's not in the US national interest to court Ukrainian NATO membership - and Putin would never allow that. The equivalent would be for Canada or Mexico to join the Warsaw Pact and the US to sit idly.

Obama put it clearly in his doctrine "“The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do,” he said
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-obama-doctrine/471525/#3\

It is sad to see to see human lives being lost, but I hope some compromise can be reached to avoid human life loss of catastrophic proportions. Escalation with Russia just aint it.
 
Paxi said:
Look guys I completely support self-determination from each country but in a real world stuff doesn’t work like that. I just wish America and Russia signed some accord and let Ukraine into EU but not in NATO. Let them be like Finland. There was room for diplomacy here but no one wanted it.
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Granting Donbass a chance for autonomy (as was the core of the Minsk agreement and as Zelensky promised at the start of his presidency) might have defused the situation as well.
 
owlo said:
How is that even possible in a globalized economy?
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In a fantasy world, the West and democracies/like-minded countries around the world would create an economic alliance to limit or eliminate dependence on trade with Russia (or China in the future). Replacing dependencies on Russia for energy with new sources within the group. It would take years, if not more than a decade, to do.

Paxi said:
Look guys I completely support self-determination from each country but in a real world stuff doesn’t work like that. I just wish America and Russia signed some accord and let Ukraine into EU but not in NATO. Let them be like Finland. There was room for diplomacy here but no one wanted it.
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There's no chance he would have acceded to an agreement of Ukraine not to join NATO in exchange for them joining the EU. He wants control of Ukraine and doesn't believe it has a right to exist (as he's stated repeatedly over the last few days). He'd already stolen part of Ukraine and was always intent on dominating it, which he couldn't do if Ukraine joined the EU.
 
spiriticon said:
Time to rob Russia blind. We'll pay for the gas using the oligarchs money and assets.
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If their assets are indeed arrested, it will be billions. At this point in time it all comes down to what US and the allies do. Are they serious about hitting the Russia economically hard or not. If they are, there is basically nothing Russian can do.
 
Water Melon said:
If their assets are indeed arrested, it will be billions. At this point in time it all comes down to what US and the allies do. Are they serious about hitting the Russia economically hard or not. If they are, there is basically nothing Russian can do.
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There’s so much Russian money in London and donated to the Conservative Party.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
A pipe dream, sorry to say it. At the start of WW2, the Allies did a major mistake by not properly hitting back at Germany when Poland was torn to shreds; that was called the Phoney War. Last thing we need is a lack of serious action from the West, which would only embolden Putin further and allow more war crimes to be committed.
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People think dictators are rationale thinkers, they aren't. They only see power and victory, Putin lives for power and that will mean conflicts and war. He's the worst world leader since Hitler and the world should not stand by any longer and wait for him to make move after move.

The mistake people have made is thinking Russia is a weak country economically yet he's dictating the global game from a supposed relatively weak position of power. It's time the west called his bluff because this will not end with Ukraine. That is absolutely certain.
 
How sad. And the thing is that Europe, USA, and the UN knew about this at least for a month. And nobody did anything. Why are we letting the autocrats do as they please? Sometimes we need to defend smaller democracies with armies, not just empty words. If Putin knew that Europe would be willing to go to war to defend Ukraine, he wouldn't even think of invading.
 
Suedesi said:
It is sad to see to see human lives being lost, but I hope some compromise can be reached to avoid human life loss of catastrophic proportions. Escalation with Russia just aint it.
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This is exactly what Russia expects, that the world would stand by and do nothing because it'd make things worse. And that's how they took Crimea like it was nothing only a few years ago.
 
frostbite said:
How sad. And the thing is that Europe, USA, and the UN knew about this at least for a month. And nobody did anything. Why are we letting the autocrats do as they please? Sometimes we need to defend smaller democracies with armies, not just empty words. If Putin knew that Europe would be willing to go to war to defend Ukraine, he wouldn't even think of invading.
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For the 99th time. NATO fighting Russia in Ukraine = Nuclear war. Without question. Everybody dies. Cappiche?
 
Danny1982 said:
Granting Donbass a chance for autonomy (as was the core of the Minsk agreement and as Zelensky promised at the start of his presidency) might have defused the situation as well.
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This is obviously something that’s very complicated and if we knew all the answers, I doubt we’d be sitting on forums divulging them. But, yes brining DNR and LNR should have been on the agenda for Ukraine. Maybe getting Ukraine into EU would have pulled the two separatist states closer to Kiev?

A large, more than half I think, of Ukrainian weren’t that keen on NATO anyone but I guarantee you could have sold them EU membership and neutrality like Finland. I mean Fins and Russians aren’t the best of buddies but they learned to live together.

And I do believe Putin is scared of NATO, couple that with Ukraine being quite close to Russia ethically, I believe it was a step too far for him. So yeah, he was not going to have it.
 
Paxi said:
There was. They drew a line with Ukraine and NATO. There could have been trilateral talks there to sort out its NATO status and the status of DNR and LNR. Absolutely something could have been worked out.
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You do not draw a line with a country where you have seized the land. The other country is not your colony, and it does not even trust you. If you want something, you do it economically. You want a favour you give a favour. You trade and discuss. But, nah, Putin wants to play war games. He will pay the price. He has been paying already in the last 7-8 years and it will get worse for him. I am sure US and allies have enough data about the real economic situation in Russia, and now they have all grounds and justifications to act.
 
maximus419 said:
They only see power and victory, Putin lives for power and that will mean conflicts and war. He's the worst world leader since Hitler and the world should not stand by any longer and wait for him to make move after move.
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Stalin and Mao have entered the chat.
 
Sir Matt said:
In a fantasy world, the West and democracies/like-minded countries around the world would create an economic alliance to limit or eliminate dependence on trade with Russia (or China in the future). Replacing dependencies on Russia for energy with new sources within the group. It would take years, if not more than a decade, to do.



There's no chance he would have acceded to an agreement of Ukraine not to join NATO in exchange for them joining the EU. He wants control of Ukraine and doesn't believe it has a right to exist (as he's stated repeatedly over the last few days). He'd already stolen part of Ukraine and was always intent on dominating it, which he couldn't do if Ukraine joined the EU.
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He might have? Was there ever a discussion about Ukraine joining EU? EU ain’t that big of a problem for Putin. I genuinely believe that he just hates NATO more than anything.
 
Paxi said:
There was. They drew a line with Ukraine and NATO. There could have been trilateral talks there to sort out its NATO status and the status of DNR and LNR. Absolutely something could have been worked out.
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Russia was bound by the Budapest Agreements to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine, which it violated when it stole Crimea and invaded/occupied the Donbas.
 
It is not about NATO, it is about having Ukraine as an independent state that is eating him from the inside. It is flipping imperialism. If anything his last actions have severely raised tensions with NATO.
 
Sir Matt said:
Russia was bound by the Budapest Agreements to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine, which it violated when it stole Crimea and invaded/occupied the Donbas.
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That’s right. Indeed that would have been a major stumbling block. Still I don’t think they’ve left everything there was to discuss on the table and it’s horrible to think about in regards to what will happen in the next few days and weeks.
 
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