Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Remember the geese]

Next season? Well, according to the reports the club simply don't have the money to buy suitable players for Amorim's system. We should sell first to buy they say but to be honest we don't have valuable players to sell. (Maybe Garnacho but is that a good idea to sell him?). And on top of that, all the other clubs know that we have to buy which puts us in a really bad position on the market. So, if we cannot buy 6-7 (or more) quality players to suit Amorim's system then we're gonna get ruined completely. We simply don't have a choice, we have to play european football next year, preferably CL. This is why i said earlier, instead of buying specific players for a certain manager we should buy simply quality players and a manager who is flexible enough to find a proper formation, tactics to create a better team.

We'll see a summer similar to last, where we'll bring one or two in and then it we will be all on a sell to buy basis. A few players departing on frees which will help the wage bill. On top of that, Sancho to Chelsea is already done. No doubt we will attempt to move Rashford, Antony and Casemiro. Garnacho may move and that alone would allow us to do pretty much whatever we'd want.

Amorim will get the summer. We'll see where we are after two or three months of next season. That's when the pressure may justifiably build.

 

[acnumber9]

Erik Ten Hag got 11 points from 9 games... points average of 1.2

Amorim has 22 points from 18 games... a points average of 1.2

And that's with a squad that has been severely weakened by injuries and players being allowed to leave

He has 18 points from 16 so an average of 1.12. The other four points were gained by the interim manager.

Of the players allowed to leave, a combination of player and manager made the situation untenable and he didn’t really play the other.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's actually 3 draws under ETH and 4 wins under Amorim - Ruud had the other win

There is no way we'd have qualified for the top 8 with ETH still in-charge.

Ah, ok. My bad. Of course, doing better than this season's ETH is a VERY low bar!

Although it does confirm how woefully inadequate our squad is. Under ETH the biggest problem has been a lack of regular goalscorers. After finally giving up on Rashford that situation has got even worse. So it seems more than a tad optimistic to expect the trend which finished ETH to magically reverse before Amorim has a chance to sign any attacking players. A situation which got even more desperate when Amad - the shining light in offence under Amorim - got a season ending injury.

 

[acnumber9]

I reckon Dalot becoming a world class wingback over the summer is marginally more likely than the player who will score the goals needed to help us charge up the table turning out to be currently playing for our U21s/U18s.

It’s not but we’ll only get evidence of one. It’s a good thing Van Gaal didn’t just think feck it, I’ll play an extra centre back instead of trying a young forward.

Whether a player can step up or not isn’t really the point and you’ve gone to the usual well of misplaced sarcasm to cover the fact. The point being argued is he has no other options. He does. He’s chosen not to try them. Rightly or wrongly we’ll never know it seems.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

He has 18 points from 16 so an average of 1.12. The other four points were gained by the interim manager.

Of the players allowed to leave, a combination of player and manager made the situation untenable and he didn’t really play the other.

I forgot Ruud existed - but even still, you're talking of a different of 0.1 its basically the same points per game.

Also he played Antony quite a lot, after December he featured in 8 games out of 13.

He featured in more games in that period then either Casemiro or Eriksen.

Either way the squad right now is far weaker then what ETH had at his disposal.

 

[red_de_pologne]

And a truly awful wingback. If Amorim prefers wingers there, why not try another one?

we have exactly one winger in the team ffs

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

The big concern for me is that the money won't be there to bring in the players he needs to get us back into the top 5 playing this formation.

There's an argument that he signs two or three key players (with one being a forward) and then explores loan/free agent markets to bulk up the squad.

I personally do not see a problem playing 3 at the back, or 5. It is about how do we attack especially. We do not have enough players where the ball is played.

8 or 9 Fulham players would have gone in our first 11? At the start of the season? Are you serious?

Sorry, misread the original post. I think 8/9 Fulham players (if signed at the start of the season) would have improved our squad in the short term (again, that's not saying a lot) and not all necessarily as starters. That being said, my point was that if we swapped squads pre match, we would have still lost 2-1. Something about the club turns everything to shit.

Do kind of agree with the part in bold though. Whatever formation we play, we're gonna struggle with Hoijlund as our main striker. Would we get more out of others though if we went back to say a 433?

 

[acnumber9]

I forgot Ruud existed - but even still, you're talking of a different of 0.1 its basically the same points per game.

Also he played Antony quite a lot, after December he featured in 8 games out of 13.

He featured in more games in that period then either Casemiro or Eriksen.

Either way the squad right now is far weaker then what ETH had at his disposal.

But we should expect improvement, not regression. That is the point of changing manager mid season.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

In this magic world where a new manager comes in and we start winning games and shoot up the table... who is the magical footballer that suddenly starts scoring goals for us? and who is the goalkeeper that isn't dodgy as hell? and who is the competent midfield? and wingers? etc. etc.

In which reality world, does a manager comes in and does worse the sacked manager?

You people are acting as if we are sweeping teams away like Liverpool in 2019. Amorim has not won 3 consecutive games in PL since he came here. Even that needs new players?

 

[NLunited]

Because he was our second best WB (after Amad) until Dorgu signed. I don't know if you've noticed but Mazraoui is even worse there. Shaw is injured, and after that there has been nobody else. Unfortunately Dorgu arriving has coincided with Amads injury, so we've not really had a chance to see what I believe is our best wing backs on the pitch at the same time.

Quenda would start at RWB over Dalot, I'm sure of it.

We‘ll see. Some of your takes are quite something.

The signings this summer and last summer weren‘t Ten Hag signings but club signings. Yoro, Zirkzee, Ugarte, Hojlund. De Ligt and Mazraoui were good deals and they have performed well overall.

Amorim is doing terrible with these club signings. Ten Hag did way better with last season‘s injury stricken squad without a backline.

 

[Theo88]

Ah, ok. My bad. Of course, doing better than this season's ETH is a VERY low bar!

Although it does confirm how woefully inadequate our squad is. Under ETH the biggest problem has been a lack of regular goalscorers. After finally giving up on Rashford that situation has got even worse. So it seems more than a tad optimistic to expect the trend which finished ETH to magically reverse before Amorim has a chance to sign any attacking players. A situation which got even more desperate when Amad - the shining light in offence under Amorim - got a season ending injury.

I'm actually happy he gave up on Rashford.
To 'change' the people sometimes you have to physically change the people. We're going nowhere with Marcus and it takes balls to cut off that one.
Granted, ETH tried to do the same with Sancho but Ruben was more authoritarian in his approach which shows a certain manager's pedigree.

I dont think he was coming in expecting to magically transform us into a top 6 team - he kind of implied there's a storm coming 2 weeks in. The team isnt there.
I suspect we get a couple of transfers and we're top 8 next year. It's all about building for the future with this one. And i'm happy to go through this as long as there's evidence we start improving structurally.
And tossing some of the dross we have accumulated over the last 4 years out, whilst bringing in some new faces that seem good value for money, is an improvement for me.

The foundation is there - Yoro, Amad, Bruno, Ugarte, Licha. Even De Ligt can be a net possitive.

 

[acnumber9]

we have exactly one winger in the team ffs

And he has started 9 of our last 17 games on the bench. So much for no options.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s not but we’ll only get evidence of one. It’s a good thing Van Gaal didn’t just think feck it, I’ll play an extra centre back instead of trying a young forward.

Whether a player can step up or not isn’t really the point and you’ve gone to the usual well of misplaced sarcasm to cover the fact. The point being argued is he has no other options. He does. He’s chosen not to try them. Rightly or wrongly we’ll never know it seems.

That's an incredibly unreasonable argument. Manager is struggling. Ah but he has "other options". None of us knows who they are or if they're good enough but the team would definitely be better if only he used them. I obviously can't argue against this but surely you can see how nebulous it is?!?

 

[NLunited]

It's actually 3 draws under ETH and 4 wins under Amorim - Ruud had the other win

There is no way we'd have qualified for the top 8 with ETH still in-charge.

You don‘t know that: the last EL games were easy compared to the first ones. Maybe excepting Twente.

 

[acnumber9]

That's an incredibly unreasonable argument. Manager is struggling. Ah but he has "other options". None of us knows who they are or if they're good enough but the team would definitely be better if only he used them. I obviously can't argue against this but surely you can see how nebulous it is?!?

You keep ignoring the original point about his inflexibility. He refuses to try something different and has said as much in press conferences. You lose benefit of the doubt when you announce you have no adaptability.

I haven’t said the team would definitely do better. I said doing the same thing over and over and expecting it to change is fecking stupid. Explain how it isn’t? If you were getting something wrong in work every day would you keep doing the exact same thing?

When we’re chasing a goal why do we always have to keep three centre backs on the pitch? Is there no ounce of your being that can see how this may be a problem? Other than the mounting evidence for it?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm actually happy he gave up on Rashford.
To 'change' the people sometimes you have to physically change the people. We're going nowhere with Marcus and it takes balls to cut off that one.
Granted, ETH tried to do the same with Sancho but Ruben was more authoritarian in his approach which shows a certain manager's pedigree.

I dont think he was coming in expecting to magically transform us into a top 6 team - he kind of implied there's a storm coming 2 weeks in. The team isnt there.
I suspect we get a couple of transfers and we're top 8 next year. It's all about building for the future with this one. And i'm happy to go through this as long as there's evidence we start improving structurally.
And tossing some of the dross we have accumulated over the last 4 years out, whilst bringing in some new faces that seem good value for money, is an improvement for me.

The foundation is there - Yoro, Amad, Bruno, Ugarte, Licha. Even De Ligt can be a net possitive.

I'm fine with him giving up on Rashford too. As are most of Amorim's critics in this thread. But even though we know he can't be relied upon, he is at least another attacking option. And miles more prolific than the alternatives currently in our squad. Hence he obviously leaves a gap in our squad. And that's what the critics are choosing to ignore.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

I personally do not see a problem playing 3 at the back, or 5. It is about how do we attack especially. We do not have enough players where the ball is played.

8 or 9 Fulham players would have gone in our first 11? At the start of the season? Are you serious?

1. There is a very big problem with having 5 defenders in a field at any time. These are players who will not offer any attacking powers.
2. If from the first instance you play 5 defenders, then you are NOT an attacking coach. This will be visible in how a team plays.
3. It beats logic to have 5 defenders every game and saying you're attacking team, same also, you can't play with 2 genuine defenders and say you're good in defensive shape.


Issue is not the numbering 343,3421, or 531. The main problem is having 5 pure defenders in the field. Thats why with Amad as a wingback, we used to play well than having 5 defenders.

The other issue with this back 3 formation is midfield. In EPL with 2 Midfielders you wont win much aftet the turn of the decade of 2010's

 

[red_de_pologne]

And he has started 9 of our last 17 games on the bench. So much for no options.

Being the only attacker to bring on from the bench?

 

[Berbasbullet]

One thing his shape gives us is great switch of play opportunities with the AM dragging the full back away and creating space for the wing back.

But crikey we just never do anything from there.

 

[hellhunter]

Being the only attacker to bring on from the bench?

Rather an attacking option on the bench than on the field?

 

[acnumber9]

Being the only attacker to bring on from the bench?

You aren’t worth the time.

 

[acnumber9]

I'm fine with him giving up on Rashford too. As are most of Amorim's critics in this thread. But even though we know he can't be relied upon, he is at least another attacking option. And miles more prolific than the alternatives currently in our squad. Hence he obviously leaves a gap in our squad. And that's what the critics are choosing to ignore.

And Amorim, along with Rashford, made that situation untenable. Maybe the two could’ve agreed to a marriage of convenience until the summer. Instead, Amorim was busy cracking wise about playing goalkeeper coaches.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You keep ignoring the original point about his inflexibility. He refuses to try something different and has said as much in press conferences. You lose benefit of the doubt when you announce you have no adaptability.

When we’re chasing a goal why do we always have to keep three centre backs on the pitch? Is there no ounce of your being that can see how this may be a problem? Other than the mounting evidence for it?

You can make your team more attacking without changing the formation (assuming you have a few decent attackers on the bench) We know this because that's what all other managers do. They don't change from a back four to a back three, they do things like replacing CMs with forwards. Which is exactly what Amorim does when we're chasing a game. Hence we've ended up with Bruno regularly playing in central midfield and Amad and Antony as wingbacks. And so on. But all those options dry up when players get injured or leave.

 

[red_de_pologne]

Rather an attacking option on the bench than on the field?

You aren’t worth the time.

ffs are you seriously arguing a point that Garnacho, one of only 4 attacking players in the team, that plays every game until end of the season, should play as a wingback?

 

[hellhunter]

ffs are you seriously arguing a point that Garnacho, one of only 4 attacking players in the team, that plays every game until end of the season, should play as a wingback?

No not at all, just found the argument of him being an option from the bench being preferable to starting a bit out there

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And Amorim, along with Rashford, made that situation untenable. Maybe the two could’ve agreed to a marriage of convenience until the summer. Instead, Amorim was busy cracking wise about playing goalkeeper coaches.

None of us know exactly what was the final straw but Amorim made it abundantly clear that the door was open for both Rashford and Garnacho after dropping the pair of them early doors. Evidently one of them knuckled down and the other started giving interviews about how it was time to move on (and, probably, doing his usual briefing to pet journos about how the players didn't have any faith in the manager) Rashford needed to move on. A decision that should have been made a very long time ago.

 

[acnumber9]

You can make your team more attacking without changing the formation (assuming you have a few decent attackers on the bench) We know this because that's what all other managers do. They don't change from a back four to a back three, they do things like replacing CMs with forwards. Which is exactly what Amorim does when we're chasing a game. Hence we've ended up with Bruno regularly playing in central midfield and Amad and Antony as wingbacks. And so on. But all those options dry up when players get injured or leave.

Continuing to keep five defenders on the pitch is inherently negative though. This isn’t just theorising either, this is based on watching us play. Lots of managers take a defender off for an extra attacker if they’re losing.

 

[red_de_pologne]

No not at all, just found the argument of him being an option from the bench being preferable to starting a bit out there

His best performances are off the bench tbh

 

[acnumber9]

None of us know exactly what was the final straw but Amorim made it abundantly clear that the door was open for both Rashford and Garnacho after dropping the pair of them early doors. Evidently one of them knuckled down and the other started giving interviews about how it was time to move on (and, probably, doing his usual briefing to pet journos about how the players didn't have any faith in the manager)

One interview. While Amorim continued to do things like say he’d rather play a 60 year old. Rashford was stupid and unprofessional, no arguments there. We don’t know what the final straw was but we do know what is in the public domain. And it paints both in a bad light for me. All that being said, another important skill for a manager to have is the ability to motivate. Maybe Rashford was beyond help but it’s another failure all the same.

 

[hellhunter]

His best performances are off the bench tbh

Not even disagreeing! But we look completely toothless without him a lot of times

 

[Matt851]

The big concern for me is that the money won't be there to bring in the players he needs to get us back into the top 5 playing this formation.

There's an argument that he signs two or three key players (with one being a forward) and then explores loan/free agent markets to bulk up the squad.

Sorry, misread the original post. I think 8/9 Fulham players (if signed at the start of the season) would have improved our squad in the short term (again, that's not saying a lot) and not all necessarily as starters. That being said, my point was that if we swapped squads pre match, we would have still lost 2-1. Something about the club turns everything to shit.

Do kind of agree with the part in bold though. Whatever formation we play, we're gonna struggle with Hoijlund as our main striker. Would we get more out of others though if we went back to say a 433?

To answer the last question I would say yes. The majority of time at the moment we are playing 5 defenders who offer little going forwards. Even just playing casemiro in midfield would improve our ability to play through balls. It's moot now but would have liked to have seen garnacho and amad on opposite flanks alongside zirkzee

 

[D. Grayson]

Some of you guys want him gone. Now you sound like there is an obvious candidate out there who fits the profile :

- Available in the summer
- Proven in the top 5 leagues with silverware
- Clear style of play, very attacking with flexibility
- Promote young players from the academy
- Work with limited funds
- Obama level skills on communication to handle the press/media
- Stoic like Marcus Aurelius to lead us through a difficult moment for the club
- Win the PL from 2028, challenge in UCL
- Last but not the least : Handsome, tall, with impeccable hair

Go on then, I’m waiting for the names. Surely he must be known by the average football fans since he has to be proven…

Xavi
Pochettino
Valverde

 

[The midfield general]

Give the man a break, he did not want to joint us mid season, but somehow he did and I bet he is regretting it (or is he ).Maybe what he is going through now would have been the same come the start of the new season. He has had time to see who fits in and who does not.also it has given him time to evaluate the younger players.Like everyone on here I am pissed off as well.But I can see some green shoots and I am remaining hopeful going froward.Only time will tell.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

But what's wrong him him being annoyed? it is easy as a pundit, you just say whatever you want, there's no repercussions for the job - Carragher literally got videoed gobbing on someone and it didn't affect his job. How does annoyance link to someone with an ego problem?

It's just the way I interpreted it. For me he could have replied I respect Rooney as an ex united legend etc, we are doing are best to get the club back to its former standards or something. Without having a go at Rooney.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

1. There is a very big problem with having 5 defenders in a field at any time. These are players who will not offer any attacking powers.
2. If from the first instance you play 5 defenders, then you are NOT an attacking coach. This will be visible in how a team plays.
3. It beats logic to have 5 defenders every game and saying you're attacking team, same also, you can't play with 2 genuine defenders and say you're good in defensive shape.


Issue is not the numbering 343,3421, or 531. The main problem is having 5 pure defenders in the field. Thats why with Amad as a wingback, we used to play well than having 5 defenders.

The other issue with this back 3 formation is midfield. In EPL with 2 Midfielders you wont win much aftet the turn of the decade of 2010's

I agree with that, except Conte, Mourinho and Ranieri - for 1 season, I don't remember any other PL side winning much with a 2 man midfield and all played quick counter football, not much dilly dallying with the ball. If they could though, it doesn't mean it's impossible.

I also think we need a 3 man midfield to cope with the press and aggression of most of the PL sides.

Amorim unfortunately, doesn't seem to know what he's doing, he is trying to control games with many defensive players that cannot pass and a lightweight midfield. Ok when you build from the back you have 5 players instead of 4, but once you get over the initial press what do you do with the ball? We never have any options.

 

[quadrant]

So he’s taken an already average attack, removed an attacker, added a defender, resulting in us scoring even less goals whilst also managing to make us even less defensively sound and unable to keep a clean sheet.

And thats something that goes in the pro Amorim column??

Why does everything have to be pro or anti-Amorim? Or indeed any manager. I hate that childishness, can't we just hope for the best while being prepared to accept it if he's not cut out for the job?

Amorim may or may not have what it takes, but the idea that the formation is responsible for the problems up front is such a facile level of analysis its hard to take seriously. There's so many problems at United, from the financial constraints, to the bad dressing room, the ongoing fitness issues, the poor squad composition and the doom spiral of confidence that began at the start of the season. Formations are a tiny part of this unholy mess but people seem hung up on it.

 

[Lentwood]

To get results in the short term. What is the point in getting players to adapt to it if the only way for it to work is to replace them? What has been gained?

We won't be replacing all of the players though will we - I expect 14 or so of the existing squad will be here next season, plus the young lads.

It's all doom and gloom at the moment but we're struggling so badly mainly because we lack legs, and that would be the case with any "modern" attacking system.

If we retreat into a low-block, our results would improve, sure - but the ships sailed on this season. We're in this position because we have insisted on kicking the can down the line over and over.

It could all start to look better with an athletic RWB, an athletic CM and a CF - and a full pre season.

 

[acnumber9]

We won't be replacing all of the players though will we - I expect 14 or so of the existing squad will be here next season, plus the young lads.

It's all doom and gloom at the moment but we're struggling so badly mainly because we lack legs, and that would be the case with any "modern" attacking system.

If we retreat into a low-block, our results would improve, sure - but the ships sailed on this season. We're in this position because we have insisted on kicking the can down the line over and over.

It could all start to look better with an athletic RWB, an athletic CM and a CF - and a full pre season.

It could get better. Or it could not. I mean, you can say things can get better with any manager if we sign better players. It’s still up to the manager to prove he’s the one to manage them.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

In which reality world, does a manager comes in and does worse the sacked manager?

You people are acting as if we are sweeping teams away like Liverpool in 2019. Amorim has not won 3 consecutive games in PL since he came here. Even that needs new players?

A world where he's

A) Not doing worse then the last manager

And

B) He has a worse squad then the last manager

You don‘t know that: the last EL games were easy compared to the first ones. Maybe excepting Twente.

It's a fairly reasonable assumption considering ETH record in Europe for us.

But we should expect improvement, not regression. That is the point of changing manager mid season.

We should expect improvement in the long run, that's what we're (hopefully) working towards.

Unless a club is wanting a short term Big Sam type fix, hiring a new manager should always be about a longer term thing over a new manager bounce.

 

[90 + 5min]

I pretty much always stand with manager. Manager needs time. But he is one of few where I’m thinking this job is way over his head. What I can’t understand and what is the biggest problem is that he is so allergic to changing system. He is to stubborn and when you don’t have any flexibility it becomes problem.