Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

SoCross said:
Correct, I may have exaggerated my words there. Point I was trying to make is that it’s clear what he is trying to implement on the pitch, a structure, a system within which players will be fitted in.

There wasn’t as this much of an emphasis on a system by previous managers.
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That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.
 
NLunited said:
That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.
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It was clear what Ten Hag was trying to do? Really? Please elaborate as to every pundit and most observers it was just chaos. Almost every team we played walked through our midfield and carved us open almost at will.
 
NLunited said:
That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.
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TH gave up on what he was trying to achieve, as in playing like Ajax, like he was bought in to do.
Remember when he said "We will never play the football we played at Ajax here" He just allowed the players to dictate the way we played then.
 
NLunited said:
That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.
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It's extremely generous to Ten Hag to say it was clear what he was trying to do.
 
wolvored said:
TH gave up on what he was trying to achieve, as in playing like Ajax, like he was bought in to do.
Remember when he said "We will never play the football we played at Ajax here" He just allowed the players to dictate the way we played then.
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I don't think it was such a matter of giving up. But with Bruno and Rashford you cannot play the kind of football he played at Ajax, those were his best players at United.

When Shaw, Martinez were fit, we often played our best football. He wanted to play a more direct version of his Ajax team, with more speed, which suits Bruno and Rashford more.

Eventually, he couldnt get the midfield balance right at all, and injuries also hampered the progression. Some forget we played with no LB all season, and how crucial Martinez was for our buildup, also largely injured.

Onana, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martinez, Shaw, Ugarte/Casemiro, Mainoo, Bruno, Diallo, Hojlund, Rashford/Garnacho could have made quite a good team.

But I think he already lost the dressing room, players had lost confidence and he still had struggles with the tactics.

But at times we looked very good under him this season, that Brighton match was a freak that we lost it for example.
 
Gordon'sHill said:
It was clear what Ten Hag was trying to do? Really? Please elaborate as to every pundit and most observers it was just chaos. Almost every team we played walked through our midfield and carved us open almost at will.
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It was tragically silly but clear. The reason our midfield was open is because the pressing scheme was designed to hurry the opposition and force midrange passes, at that point the goal was to trap the ball carrier between the CBs and the backchecking midfielders/attackers. That kind of tactics is relatively common in Hockey but it doesn't work in Football unless your players are equipped with teleportation devices since the field is way bigger. That boneheaded tactic was made even worse by the fact that he would use deep runs from Fullbacks as outlets in transition which means that unless the attackingtransition ends up with a shot our team would start it's defensive transition in a 6112 with the open grass near the kickoff circle and on both flanks.
 
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stevoc said:
Only an idiot would never adapt their tactics based on opposition and players available.
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Yea and where are all those that adapted in United, also adapting to opposition means its not you who dictating dominating shit, guess those coaches are idiots.
 
None of the managers from Ole onwards could really implement what they wanted to do because ultimately the players were allowed to do what they want, work hard when they felt like it and turn the dressing room toxic without fear of losing their place or being sold. I'm just speculating of course, but I don't think it's a coincidence this is finally changing even if just a little bit when the Glazers are no longer in charge of the football side. Implementing any kind of style of play and tactics takes a buy in, discipline and cohesion amongst the players. We have none of that and will continue to have none of it until the dressing room is completely reset the way Arsenal reset their dressing room for Arteta.
 
JPRouve said:
It was tragically silly but clear. The reason our midfield was open is because the pressing scheme was designed to hurry the opposition and force midrange passes, at that point the goal was to trap the ball carrier between the CBs and the backchecking midfielders/attackers. That kind of tactics is relatively common in Hockey but it doesn't work in Football unless your players are equipped with teleportation devices since the field is way bigger. That bonehead tactic was made even worse by the fact that he would use deep runs from Fullbacks as outlets in transition which means that unless the attackingtransition ends up with a shot our team would start it's defensive transition in a 6112 with the open grass near the kickoff circle and on both flanks.
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I think it was one of those ideas that seemed good when he dreamed it up on the beach in the off season, but was never going to work in the harsh reality of a long league season. We live in an era when even a mid-table team can play through a press, so pressing has to be just part of the plan, not the only plan. And the sheer intensity required to make ETH's scheme work was never going to be viable long term, even if he had got it to work in one off games.

I think its a bad comparison to compare what Amorim is doing to what ETH did. ETH's approach was a bit of a hare brained scheme from the outset. Amorim's approach is basically in line with what most big clubs do these days, except he keeps 3 at the back in the defensive phase as well as the offensive phase. All coaches have their own spin on things, but generally speaking his approach is pretty straightforward. Its the same post-Guardiola/post-Klopp type tactics we see all Europe these days. Its just that United haven't really done it before, other than an interesting but failed spell under LVG.
 
Gordon'sHill said:
Some of the 442 videos are really good on highlighting what should happen vs what does happen on the pitch for Amorim's approach to work. Which asks the question should a good manager be able to get more out of this squad, despite the problems I mentioned, then the answer is yes. I am not sure though he can.
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I think the issue is that to get more from this squad you need to go back to a 4-4-2. We didn't hire him for that. As I think I said, there is only so much you can do if a player isn't trying to do what they are asked. It feels like what is required to play Amorims system and what the players are doing is a gulf and honestly, it doesn't seem that hard to do either. Its just compounded at the moment with the injuries we have and our misfiring forwards.

We simply have to stick or twist. We have to accept that quite a few of these players need to go or we need to accept that Amorim needs to go and another manager needs to come in and work with what he has more. We probably should have gone for a manager who plays a more standard 4-4-2 variant until the squad was of a better overall quality but they clearly had a plan with Amorim (well I hope so). Too many of these players are not athletic nor technical. We have a horrible mish mash of the two and not in the right positions.
 
quadrant said:
I think it was one of those ideas that seemed good when he dreamed it up on the beach in the off season, but was never going to work in the harsh reality of a long league season. We live in an era when even a mid-table team can play through a press, so pressing has to be just part of the plan, not the only plan. And the sheer intensity required to make ETH's scheme work was never going to be viable long term, even if he had got it to work in one off games.

I think its a bad comparison to compare what Amorim is doing to what ETH did. ETH's approach was a bit of a hare brained scheme from the outset. Amorim's approach is basically in line with what most big clubs do these days, except he keeps 3 at the back in the defensive phase as well as the offensive phase. All coaches have their own spin on things, but generally speaking his approach is pretty straightforward. Its the same post-Guardiola/post-Klopp type tactics we see all Europe these days. Its just that United haven't really done it before, other than an interesting but failed spell under LVG.
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Yeah, the theory isn't bad and it's even a good starting point for different ways to do things but you can't implement it the way we did. And it wasn't a case of intensity but simple geometry and physics, you can't cover that kind of space with 11 players, it's simply not possible because no player can travel faster than the ball. At the end of the day Football is fairly simple, it's a game where you want to deny space to your opponents in order to prevent goalscoring chances and exploit spaces that they give you in order to create goalscoring chances. If your attacking or defensive tactics puts a player out of position for the next transition then that's a weakness that you need to manage or eliminate by adapting your formation aka coverage otherwise the opposition will exploit it.
 
NLunited said:
That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.
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Ok mate if you say so. Ten Hag was our chaos after his first season. But just my opinion.
 
JPRouve said:
It was tragically silly but clear. The reason our midfield was open is because the pressing scheme was designed to hurry the opposition and force midrange passes, at that point the goal was to trap the ball carrier between the CBs and the backchecking midfielders/attackers. That kind of tactics is relatively common in Hockey but it doesn't work in Football unless your players are equipped with teleportation devices since the field is way bigger. That bonehead tactic was made even worse by the fact that he would use deep runs from Fullbacks as outlets in transition which means that unless the attackingtransition ends up with a shot our team would start it's defensive transition in a 6112 with the open grass near the kickoff circle and on both flanks.
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Yeah it was pretty "clear" just incredibly stupid and nonsensical if you're aim is anything other than playing like Bielsa at Leeds before he got them relegated.
 
Our Portuguese managers have a perfect europa record.

They've won it every single time they participated in it!
 
NLunited said:
That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.
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It was clear it was never going to work regardless of players. Especially as he hand picked virtually a new squad to play his style.
 
wolvored said:
TH gave up on what he was trying to achieve, as in playing like Ajax, like he was bought in to do.
Remember when he said "We will never play the football we played at Ajax here" He just allowed the players to dictate the way we played then.
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Where do you get the idea that he was brought into make us play like exactly Ajax or that Ten Hag ever wanted United to play that way?

The players absolutely not dictate the way we played last season and up until October this season. As evidenced by the fact we looked a more solid outfit when he eventually switched tactics in the lead up to the FA Cup final.
 
R'hllor said:
Why mentioning Fergie, this is about post SAF period
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Where did you specify post SAF?

"When ever you trade your philosophy for survival, there is only one outcome in United, question is just when."

You're making a big claim about the way things work at United, yet want to ignore the manager who survived at the club the longest?
And even in the post-SAF period, do you think David Moyes got sacked because he betrayed his philosophy? There is a better case to be made that he got sacked for not changing his philsophy, e.g. buying Fellaini.
 
R'hllor said:
Yea and where are all those that adapted in United,
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One of them won 13 League titles and 2 European Cups

R'hllor said:
also adapting to opposition means its not you who dictating dominating shit, guess those coaches are idiots.
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Name one coach in world football who never adapts their tactics based on the opposition they are playing and the players they have available?

Ten Hag for most of last season is a good example of this but even he eventually switched it up for the Cup Final.
 
TrivelaDeBruno said:
None of the managers from Ole onwards could really implement what they wanted to do because ultimately the players were allowed to do what they want, work hard when they felt like it and turn the dressing room toxic without fear of losing their place or being sold. I'm just speculating of course, but I don't think it's a coincidence this is finally changing even if just a little bit when the Glazers are no longer in charge of the football side. Implementing any kind of style of play and tactics takes a buy in, discipline and cohesion amongst the players. We have none of that and will continue to have none of it until the dressing room is completely reset the way Arsenal reset their dressing room for Arteta.
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Between Ole and Ten Hag we had virtually a different squad. Dressing room culture is the responsibility of the manager, if it's bad it's their failing. Even more so if they've signed 80% of the squad.
 
stevoc said:
Between Ole and Ten Hag we had virtually a different squad. Dressing room culture is the responsibility of the manager, if it's bad it's their failing. Even more so if they've signed 80% of the squad.
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Yep, I dont understand why fans actually think its the same players... when in fact if you look at Ten Hag's line up this season, how many were regulars under Ole? Bruno, Shaw? Thats it.

The rest of the 11 was new or with younger players...
 
stevoc said:
Between Ole and Ten Hag we had virtually a different squad. Dressing room culture is the responsibility of the manager, if it's bad it's their failing. Even more so if they've signed 80% of the squad.
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Before you apply any context in a vacuum this is true. Not so simple at United however and that's not an opinion.
 
TrivelaDeBruno said:
Before you apply any context in a vacuum this is true. Not so simple at United however and that's not an opinion.
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The point remains though. Squad/team culture are created and maintained primarily by the manager. If it is bad then that's on the manager.
 
I've been fairly critical of him the last few weeks but one thing I will say is he seems to have raised the floor of a number of players.

Over the last few years we'd seen some players swinging from 9/10 performances to 0/10 almost week to week, but now we have a core group of players who consistently churn out 5s or 6s every game. This is something to build on.

It comes across at it's worst moments like we're mediocre all over the pitch, but it's much rarer for individual performances to wildly fluctuate. This suggests the team have more of a plan that they're working to and maybe there is a mentality shift happening.
 
romufc said:
Yep, I dont understand why fans actually think its the same players... when in fact if you look at Ten Hag's line up this season, how many were regulars under Ole? Bruno, Shaw? Thats it.

The rest of the 11 was new or with younger players...
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If it's about the atmosphere in the dressing room, who was in the starting 11 is basically irrelevant.
 
romufc said:
Yep, I dont understand why fans actually think its the same players... when in fact if you look at Ten Hag's line up this season, how many were regulars under Ole? Bruno, Shaw? Thats it.

The rest of the 11 was new or with younger players...
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It's an enduring mystery to be honest. I can only assume some don't keep track of the make-up of the squad.
 
stevoc said:
The point remains though. Squad/team culture are created and maintained primarily by the manager. If it is bad then that's on the manager.
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Then enjoy discussions with no context. I'm well aware of basic manager responsibilities.
 
Looking better defensively except for the odd silly mistake or GK blunder.

Starting to create chances.

As soon as we start finishing chances we'll look a different team.

Needs time and at least a good window or 2.
 
stevoc said:
Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw, Dalot, Bruno and Rashford are basically the only players to play for Ole and Ten Hag this season.
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Also... apart from Rashford, cannot see anyone who is toxic in that list. Bruno is loved by all the players...
 
TrivelaDeBruno said:
Then enjoy discussions with no context. I'm well aware of basic manager responsibilities.
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I'm adding context. You can't just say the dressing room is toxic and the manager suffered because of it without acknowledging that the manager was primarily responsible for it.
 
romufc said:
Also... apart from Rashford, cannot see anyone who is toxic in that list. Bruno is loved by all the players...
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Maguire, Bruno and Dalot couldn't be accused of not trying and the first two have performed well under Ten Hag and Amorim. Shaw and Lindelof have barely played.

So it's only Rashford as you say who could be suspected of being a negative presence, the fact he's the only player Amorim froze out would strengthen that theory.
 
wolvored said:
TH gave up on what he was trying to achieve, as in playing like Ajax, like he was bought in to do.
Remember when he said "We will never play the football we played at Ajax here" He just allowed the players to dictate the way we played then.
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The pace of the game is different. Ibra explained it vry well. That is why so many players fail in the EPL. So what has worked in Ajax/Sporting does not have to work here.
 
wolvored said:
TH gave up on what he was trying to achieve, as in playing like Ajax, like he was bought in to do.
Remember when he said "We will never play the football we played at Ajax here" He just allowed the players to dictate the way we played then.
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That is partially true for the first season. Ajax under Ten Hag played pragmatic against the big teams in Europe.

The second season was ruined by injuries (yet, 8th place instead of 15th).

The third season was an actual attempt at changing to a different more pro-active style. Amorim is doing the same.
 
Olecurls99 said:
7 CBs is more than enough. Heaven and Yoro may be teenagers but they have all the attributes we're looking for. We'd actually find it difficult to sign a better player than Yoro on the market, especially given our circumstances. We are expecting Martinez and Shaw to return at some stage so what do we do with 8 players competing for 3 positions when they do?

The whole idea of having 2 players for each position or 6 centre halves for 3 positions is to allow for injuries and have some rotation. We'll have 7. The fact that 2 are injured does not warrant signing an 8th. That's madness especially when we are so bare up front and in midfield in terms of quality and even in terms of pure numbers.

Priority 1 is a technical dangerous forward. Priority 2 is a technical wizard in midfield.
Priority 3 is a goalkeeper.
Centre half is about 7th down the list, not 1st.
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We don’t have 7 CBs that we can use. Yes you have to consider that 2 of them cannot in any way be relied upon. Shaw and Martinez can leave - neither of which are well suited in any case, even if my some miracle they were fit.

In no way did I say it was our ‘first’ priority - but yes we need a CB, and yes the club can work on multiple deals at the same time.
 
pocco said:
Because when we play Liverpool, Arsenal and City, they dominate possession and it lends itself well to playing on the counter. They push high, look to break us down (as we try and fail vs smaller teams) and therefore leave themselves open.
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It’s not even a choice.

Even if we wanted to play a high line and be on the front foot, we wouldn’t be able to against Arsenal. Their play pushes us back, we don’t have the ability to play through their press, and can’t get high up the pitch in possession of the football.

Arsenal are simply far too good at recycling the ball and winning in back.
 
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