I think these games are always false dawns because we are a counter attacking team so playing a team that wants to play in our half benefits us. Our issues almost always come from teams who sit back and play a low block, we don’t have the physicality or the ability to break a team down and defend counter attacks.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
Stop acting clever mate.
Amorim has not won 2 league games on the bounce since he came.
He has managed 17 league games since he came in. He has accumulated 19 points.
We are on half a season games for him, he has sub 20 points by half a season of games.
That means he draws every game or losses every other game or wins 1 and losses the next 2.
How Hojlund and Onana can't win 2 games on the bounce then what can Amorim with 'other inferior' players.
Yesterday was the first time since December 1st we have had FIRST HALF lead in PL.
If this squad cant have a first half lead in PL in 3 fcking months, then we are dead.
We will be here when Amorim will leave us, he has found us as United fans, and when he will leave us here, thats when people will open their eyes. Same as i complained about ETH since January 2023.
We will spend alot of money, time, opportunity cost to just get back to where we were with other coaches.
Which is the right thing to do?
This is very fair. To give Amorim some credit, we look fairly solid in a low block setup, and by now it's no coincidence that we look better vs big teams. Unfortunately, the league isn't filled with big teams, so we're only halfway there
Back again to, when we play well against big games is Amorim credit but when we play poorly against other teams is players are relegation standard.
The irony continues.
We've got 9 CBs. Why would you prioritise a CB when we are clearly shorter in the other areas?
I'd love to know the gymnastics you've used to find NINE centrebacks in that squad!
I'd count 7 at best, of whom two are leaving in a couple of months and one who has done his cruciate. Even if you assume that Heaven is good enough to start regularly (and I don't think you can know either way), you have four. No manager should start a season with four centre backs for three positions. A single injury would leave you absolutely screwed.
Eh you're likely running in open doors, I'm not exactly the forums biggest Amorim supporter. Still think it doesn't hurt to give some credit. We're largely extremely poor, so I like to focus on small segments where we look capable, and that's playing big teams so far.
You also won't find me talking down our squad anywhere
I'd love to know the origin of this phrase, it's not one I've heard before.
Lindelof and Evans are leaving, Martinez is out until Christmas at best, Shaw is always injured.
That leaves for 3 CB positions De Ligt, Maguire, Maz, Yoro and Heaven thats only 5 players for 3 positions in the 1st team and if we want to play a high line Maguire is not suitable therefore you then only have 4 players
Maybe it's just German? Assumed it'd make sense in English as well
This man has a plan unlike many of his predecessors.
The management isn’t stupid, if this time next season he’s still struggling, he’s a goner but in the same vein, they will surely back him in the summer with a few key signings and give him the best chance possible because Amorim definitely is the profile of coach we need to take United forward.
The management isn’t stupid, if this time next season he’s still struggling, he’s a goner but in the same vein, they will surely back him in the summer with a few key signings and give him the best chance possible because Amorim definitely is the profile of coach we need to take United forward.
We could have had 99 and we'd still need one central CB with good physical attributes, ability on the ball & pace to cover large spaces. Unless we get that player we won't be able to play a highline and make the pitch compact higher compared to in a low block.
A CB of that ilk, an agile CM with passing ability, a #10 and a striker are top most priorities in the summer. We'll struggle again if don't get those four signings right.
Yoro, Heaven, De Ligt and Mazraoui all have enough pace to play a high line.
One of the main reasons we don't play a high line is because we lose the possession battle and naturally retreat, not because our centre halves are slow.
I'd switch striker and CB around but otherwise agree with you. We should be aiming for around 5 good reinforcements this summer window.
Well, my honest and presumably unpopular opinion is that there's not really a reason to keep Amorim. (I'm not against him, just thinking). If INEOS want to do something what Liverpool and Man City did, namely that they bought two high profile managers and helped them to put together a squad which was capable to win that's understandable. But there's a fly in the ointment. First of all Klopp and Guardiola both were proven high profile managers who could be expected to be successful with the team sooner or later, while Amorim isn't. He is potentially good but winning the portuguese league and the domestic cup with Sporting isn't that big achievement for a couple of reasons. Secondly, both Liverpool and City were financially capable teams while United simply don't have money to overhaul the squad. So, i'm not really optimistic to be fair. As I said, i'm not an "Amorim out" guy just thinking.
I've been critical (within reason, I think) but I've been pleasantly surprised at the tactics he's been willing to deploy the last couple of games. Way less set on forcing his style on an ill-suited squad and much more open to playing a deeper defensive line. We've looked more comfortable across the pitch because of it.
You will note, however, that he's also maintaining his system..
We're just settling into some shapes within the system when we otherwise wouldn't to control the game in a different way
Genuinely, I do not understand this thing with Man Utd managers feeling like they have to 'come out and play.' It killed Ole, it killed Ten Hag, and its been killing Amorim.
When we played Oleball, when we were more defensive during Ten Hag's first season, when we keep it compact like we do in the big games, we just look better.
Its all well and good wanting to go on the offensive but if what you've got doesn't suit that, then you have to wait and do something different until you get the players to achieve a different result.
If someone has to put it into Amorim's head that he has to apologise for a less expansive approach that person needs talking to.
We would much prefer to defend deep and break to getting beat up by teams in the bottom half of the table.
Because it's the only way to get to 90+ points, that's why.
I think the reason for this is obvious though, no? It's easier to set up and get inferior players to play a low block and hit on the counter. This is the only tactic that has worked for us for going on 6 years now. But when we have to come out, play some football and try to find ways through an opponent, things that require a bit more quality, we are suddenly way short.
I'm not saying this is always the problem, but I think this rings true for this current squad. To break down teams that sit in a low block you need players that can go past a man and ruin their organisation, good off the ball movement to create openings, incisive passing to exploit situations. This is where we are lacking and have been for a long time.
Lindelof and Evans are gone. Assume you have included Shaw? Him and Martinez are MIA, and cannot ever be relied upon.
So we have De Ligt, Maguire, Yoro, Heaven and Maz - for 3 positions, with 2 of them teenagers and Maz more or a RB. So yes we need another CB.
Need to get him a striker than can score goals at the very least. Are we the only team in the league who don't have that?
It kind of does! I’m sure I’ve heard of the phrase ‘pushing at an open door’ before..Maybe it's just German? Assumed it'd make sense in English as well
I'm not convinced De Ligt is suited to a high line and I believe it was one of the reasons he was dropped by Bayern. We may get away with it if he was flanked by two quick CBs though. Sporting under Amorim often had their CBs pushed all the way up to the halfway line and beyond, so it is a lot of ground to cover if you get countered.
We've been caught in this vicious circle for years now though. If you're used to playing counter attack football, you can't just become a progressive footballing team overnight. It takes time to rebuild the squad and get them playing how you want, and during that transition period you will inevitably get worse. But if you never try, then you get stuck as a counter attacking team, and that style has a hard ceiling in terms of success. We've had two managers now who relied on reactive football for way too long. We may as well just bite the bullet and start now. Mixing it up from time to time is fine, but our Plan A has to be based on our long term principles.
7 CBs is more than enough. Heaven and Yoro may be teenagers but they have all the attributes we're looking for. We'd actually find it difficult to sign a better player than Yoro on the market, especially given our circumstances. We are expecting Martinez and Shaw to return at some stage so what do we do with 8 players competing for 3 positions when they do?
The whole idea of having 2 players for each position or 6 centre halves for 3 positions is to allow for injuries and have some rotation. We'll have 7. The fact that 2 are injured does not warrant signing an 8th. That's madness especially when we are so bare up front and in midfield in terms of quality and even in terms of pure numbers.
Priority 1 is a technical dangerous forward. Priority 2 is a technical wizard in midfield.
Priority 3 is a goalkeeper.
Centre half is about 7th down the list, not 1st.
No, he was not dropped by bayern when he was there. And he was sold because his asset value was the highest and they needed to find their own deals like Olise.
He's capable of a highline, and is actually very agile and quick on the turn. There's many times where he's accelerating back on a turnover and surprisingly capable in keeping up pace.
He's also clever positionally and rarely puts himself in uncompromising positions. If you have an even faster cb next to him like Yorro it's an even better fit.
Yep. 2 of Yoro, Mazraoui and Heaven. De Ligt has pace but he's not zippy.
And therein lies the problem. Evans and Lindelof are leaving, so I’ve no idea why you’d count them for next season. Martinez has torn a cruciate, and could very easily miss the first 30-50% of the season. Heaven is untested; he may turn out to be good but Amorim cannot know or rely on that. Shaw has played a grand total of two PL games this season, and will also be expected to play left back. Mazraoui very clearly has at least two other positions he will be expected to play.
In terms of non-injured, experienced players, whose primary position is CB, I count 3. And one of them is very slow and about to turn 32.
Funny really what impact an actual result has on the perception of a performance. Because he'd been hammered for playing this setup when it wasn't working as well ie mainly 5atb.
I said it in another thread but I've seen improvement since the Everton game in terms of performances, hopefully results follow more regularly.
I covered it in my chat with Clayton
Its not a question of not trying, its a question of not doing a 180 and trying to go in a totally different direction overnight.
Of course, I would love United to be a dominant team. However, you have to be realistic. If your central midfield is a bunch of guys who are (mostly) coming to the end or are not natural athletes you have to accomodate. Make a long-term plan that anyone you buy in the future will be young, energic and powerful and gradually phase out the guys who cannot perform as you'd like.
Ole, Ten Hag, and Amorim have all made the mistake of trying to run before they can walk. Ole seemed to decide that just cos we got a bunch of attackers in he could just give up what had worked before. Despite him chasing Rice because he knew he didn't have the right level of dynamism in the middle of the park. Why? Likewise, Ten Hag completely dropped what had saved him and won him a League Cup, seemingly, because he signed Mason Mount. As if he'd mistaken him for a latter day Michael Essien.
We have to let time and better recruitment do their job before trying to switch it up. However, it feels like our coaches are under some diktat that they must 'play on the front foot' even its obvious we lack the personnel for it. Its weird.
Yes, he was dropped by Tuchel and he was not happy about it. I think at different points he was dropped for different reasons. First time Tuchel mentioned his passing between the lines not being as good as their other CBs, which I can agree with. Second time I believe he was dropped for Dier due to him being better in the higher line.
He's not rapid by any means, he gave away a dangerous freekick yesterday because he couldn't keep up with the Arsenal player and brought him down on the edge of the box. He gets beaten in little 2-3m races too often where he is slow to turn. His positioning is something that has been criticised about him for years but I think Amorim has got him a bit better coordinated recently.
There's a big difference between what we need, and what we need first. Whatever the patchwork nature of our CB line up, we're still going into next season with 7 CBs on the books, and most of them can do a solid job when available. They may not be what we need to win the league, but to get us back into the top 4 mix, they're certainly good enough.
However, assuming that Rashford, Sancho and/or Antony don't make a Lazarus like return, we're probably going into next season as things stand with 5 attackers, if Bruno continues in centre mid. Of those 5, only 2 (Amad & Garnacho) look good enough. Hojland, Zirkzee and Mount may or may not be total write offs, but relying on them to score the goals we need would be madness. So whatever need we have at CB, its dwarfed by what we need up front.