Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

In the same way that it was frequently stated the manager who followed SAF had something of a poisoned chalice, I think the opposite is true here if Amorim were to leave. All the tough financial decisions will have been already linked to the previous manager and the owners. But the benefits not yet truly felt. It will be very very difficult to be worse than 15th, virtually any change will be a positive one. And just looking at the players whose contracts expire either this summer or the next…
Eriksen
Lindelof
Evans
Heaton
Casemiro
Maguire
… all aged 30-38, some very high wages which aren’t even nearly reflected in their performances.
To me it’s one of the biggest arguments I can see for Amorim staying on. The club will be in a much much healthier position.
Just my 2p worth.

Edit- depending on how accurately the wages are reported, there are potentially £50 million of annual savings there. That’s a huge saving for a not too big drop off in ability.
 
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stepic said:
It’s not that difficult.

Is a strike force of Benteke, Firminho, Sturridge and Coutinho a title challenging attack? No

Is it better than Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho? Significantly

You’re just not getting how bad our forward line is.
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Daniel Sturridge was perpetually injured by the time Klopp took over. He scored 8 goals that season, after which he never scored more than 4 league goals in a season again, ever, for any team. Phillipe Coutinho scored 8 goals that season, which is his joint-second highest tally ever, as he was never any kind of prolific goalscorer. Christian Benteke was benched by Klopp and was widely acknowledged as a flop transfer, he was shipped off that summer. Firminho scored 10 goals.

These numbers aren't dissimilar from what Hojlund scored last season (10) or what Zirkzee scored in Serie A (11). You are also for some reason ignoring Bruno Fernandes, who has been United's second-highest goalscorer in every season since he joined, and Amad Diallo, who was only injured very recently.
 
stepic said:
It’s not that difficult.

Is a strike force of Benteke, Firminho, Sturridge and Coutinho a title challenging attack? No

Is it better than Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho? Significantly

You’re just not getting how bad our forward line is.
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Benteke, Firminho, Sturridge Coutinho,

Hojlund, Zirkzee, Garnacho, Amad, Bruno Fernandes, Rashford

Which is what Amorim had when he arrived. I'd say there is not much difference. (Thats without Atnony)
 
wolvored said:
Player power where there are leaks to the press. Where the players dont put the effort in, wont adapt, yet seem to be able to at other teams.
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I don't follow press rumours so I'm not sure if there are still leaks. But from what I've seen these players are putting effort in during games and at least trying to follow instructions and adapt to Amorims system. But their confidence is in the shitter.

in Willing to take a pay cut to play elsewhere, but try and hold Utd to ransom.
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That's not player power or holding the club to ransom that's choosing to see out their conract which they have every right to do. Contracts work both ways.

Unfit all season, but as soon as the national team are in a final, miraculously are able to play, then are unfit again, for months on end. Hows that for a start?
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Shaw?
 
Garethw said:
You don’t have to be an analyst to see that we have gone backwards since he arrived.

If there was a glimmer of hope that this system was working then fans would be far more forgiving.

After three months of playing this system we should be performing much better and that is on the coaching staff.
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Fine margins, no?

A Dalot pass away from Hojlund scoring? A Garnacho pass away from Bruno scoring.... This is happening multiple times a game.

This isn't a system or formation issue, this is braindead greedy players not doing as they should.
 
should have just sticked with Louie van gaal or Mourinho. surely able to gets 1 title in 12 years.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Benteke, Firminho, Sturridge Coutinho,

Hojlund, Zirkzee, Garnacho, Amad, Bruno Fernandes, Rashford

Which is what Amorim had when he arrived. I'd say there is not much difference. (Thats without Atnony)
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Yet those 4 Liverpool combined for 34 PL goals and those 6 United players have so far combined for 24.

Now for fairness let’s add in 10 more goals for Liverpool for their next 2 highest goal scorers Milner and Origi to make it fairer and you’re at 44 to 24, granted the season isn’t over yet.

However that’s not even considering the fact Rashford isn’t even here anymore and Amad is injured. Also that Bruno is being forced to play further back to cover for a lack of cover in central midfield.

If we had an extra 20 goals from this squad we’d no doubt be further up the ladder too. It’s not rocket science, Klopp had more to work with that first season.
 
Utd are playing gradually better compared to start of the season, definitely don’t see 3-4 opposition players bombing through empty midfield like eth utd. Utd do create half chances which can be good opportunities if players look up and play as a team rather than individuals and similarly we have conceded through individual mistakes rather than tactics.
I agree amorim can be more adventurous than playing 5 defenders but one also has to look at the players available at utd.
Imho a lot of fans are frustrated but abit harsh criticising coaching staff so early especially when they started midseason and came with a new system (decision makers knew that already). In a developing team team play is a priority while incorporating individual brilliance, not the other way around which has happened alot recently.
Although minimum requirement but it looks like work rate is also highlighted atleast helps with the frustration I guess in a difficult season.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
'Squad quality' is one of the most slippery arguments I see on Redcafe.

I can't count the number of times I've heard that Klopp and Arteta couldn't do anything with their crap squads that they finished 8th with and that's why you need to give managers time if they are 6th-8th. Now that United has a manager at around 12-14th I'm hearing that Klopp had a formidable strike force and that's why he did so well. C'mon.
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Interesting point. A squad's quality is generally determined by their performances, so claiming a manager is over- or under-performing relative to squad quality is essentially a circular argument.
 
What happens is that when a manager is not performing up to standard, and people want to defend their work and suitability, they will often argue that (almost) any other manager wouldn't do any better, and this is the squad's ceiling. This is a fine and sound argument, but it must assume that the squad also has a floor, and that a worse manager would perform worse. Otherwise you are not defending a manager, you are arguing that they are irrelevant, what JPRouve (I think) called a "glorified personal shopper."

The problem is that when you have Klopp or Arteta finishing 8th it's possible to imagine another manager finishing lower, because there's plenty more spots on the table. The argument is at least plausible.

United on the other hand are like 16 or 17 in the 'form table' since Amorim was appointed. A worse performance than this would mean outright relegation. I think most people believe that is implausible. So it leaves us to conclude that the manager is irrelevant, in which case it doesn't matter if they are sacked or backed or whatever.
 
rpg said:
should have just sticked with Louie van gaal or Mourinho. surely able to gets 1 title in 12 years.
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Maybe Mourinho would have grinded out a title with ugly football if he had got the transfers he wanted, but LVG was clueless on how to defeat a low block.
 
stevoc said:
I don't follow press rumours so I'm not sure if there are still leaks. But from what I've seen these players are putting effort in during games and at least trying to follow instructions and adapt to Amorims system. But their confidence is in the shitter.



That's not player power or holding the club to ransom that's choosing to see out their conract which they have every right to do. Contracts work both ways.



Shaw?
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Yes Shaw.
 
wolvored said:
We should be going all out for a quality attacker, as a novice and a teenager doesnt cut it. I would even try and get another decent striker and let Hojlund go. Obi can be the new novice striker.
The pre season was what Amorim has cried out what was lacking, so he should at least be given that. Whats the alternative? Start with another manager that plays a different system again and confuse these uncompromising players that will be left, even more?
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We 100% should be signing a top quality striker and a decent backup striker. We cannot go into a third season with Hojlund getting major minutes, he should be sent on loan at the very least. We need to ruthlessly and aggressively pursue improvement to the squad.

Also signing players should not be about what any manager deserves or for the manager, it is what we (the fans) and the club deserve and need. We need a quality squad of players regardless of who the coach is and that is what the senior leadership team should be focusing on. Players are not rigid robots who can only function in one system, etc. every single club signs players and changes manager without having to rip the whole squad apart every time, this weird logic is only held with regards to Manchester United.
 
wolvored said:
Yes Shaw.
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Fair enough, that was Shaw putting his own international ambitions before his desire to be fit for his club. I didn't like that he did it but I don't think it's really an example of player power or anything unique to United.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
What happens is that when a manager is not performing up to standard, and people want to defend their work and suitability, they will often argue that (almost) any other manager wouldn't do any better, and this is the squad's ceiling. This is a fine and sound argument, but it must assume that the squad also has a floor, and that a worse manager would perform worse. Otherwise you are not defending a manager, you are arguing that they are irrelevant, what JPRouve (I think) called a "glorified personal shopper."

The problem is that when you have Klopp or Arteta finishing 8th it's possible to imagine another manager finishing lower, because there's plenty more spots on the table. The argument is at least plausible.

United on the other hand are like 16 or 17 in the 'form table' since Amorim was appointed. A worse performance than this would mean outright relegation. I think most people believe that is implausible. So it leaves us to conclude that the manager is irrelevant, in which case it doesn't matter if they are sacked or backed or whatever.
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I feel like you’re making an interesting point but I am not sure what that is. Is your assertion that Amorim is performing so badly that no other manager could have performed worse ?
 
Tallis said:
I feel like you’re making an interesting point but I am not sure what that is. Is your assertion that Amorim is performing so badly that no other manager could have performed worse ?
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I think Neville could do worse but the bar for doing better is fairly low.
 
When you think it can't get any worse...quick look at the league fixtures coming up...it can and almost certainly will get worse! gulp!

Arsenal (2nd)
Leicester
Forest (3rd)
City (4th)
Newcastle (6th)
 
Tallis said:
I feel like you’re making an interesting point but I am not sure what that is. Is your assertion that Amorim is performing so badly that no other manager could have performed worse ?
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I think it's possible to perform worse, and possible to perform better.
 
RuudTom83 said:
When you think it can't get any worse...quick look at the league fixtures coming up...it can and almost certainly will get worse! gulp!

Arsenal (2nd)
Leicester
Forest (3rd)
City (4th)
Newcastle (6th)
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We don't win another league game this season. I'd be surprised if we score more than 6 league goals these remaining games. We are a 6-3, 7-0 defeat from becoming officially worse than anything or any manager since SAF.
 
RuudTom83 said:
When you think it can't get any worse...quick look at the league fixtures coming up...it can and almost certainly will get worse! gulp!

Arsenal (2nd)
Leicester
Forest (3rd)
City (4th)
Newcastle (6th)
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We should win one of these, the rest I just can't see us doing anything in, I'm going tomorrow I have a feeling it's going to be a total shit show
 
RuudTom83 said:
When you think it can't get any worse...quick look at the league fixtures coming up...it can and almost certainly will get worse! gulp!

Arsenal (2nd)
Leicester
Forest (3rd)
City (4th)
Newcastle (6th)
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L
W
L
D
L
 
rpg said:
should have just sticked with Louie van gaal or Mourinho. surely able to gets 1 title in 12 years.
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I often wonder this. Would we really be in a worse position if we had stuck with any random manager post SAF?

It’s clear Amorim is not the right man for the job though. We don’t have the players for his system and he isn’t capable of playing any other system. So we either spend 500 mill on players just for him, and hope it works out. OR we take back control of this club and buy players the club/DoF wants and tell a new manager to work with what he got.
 
Stay the course and back the manager this summer. It’s the only responsible way forward right now.
 
lex talionis said:
Stay the course and back the manager this summer. It’s the only responsible way forward right now.
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We could do that, possibly throw away another season, oooor we could learn from the very predictable ten Hag disaster of this season and cut out losses early?

Backing a failing manager comes down to blind faith, not doing anything responsible.
 
There’s really no debating Amorims tenure so far, it’s fecking shit. -6 goal difference, more points behind the leaders than points we’ve won all season, and absolutely dire football with almost no exception. A run of 1 win in 6 PL home games where we lost to Newcastle, Brighton, crystal palace, Bournemouth and Nottingham forest. Every one of those games we’ve played 3-4-2-1, refused to adapt, and Been dominated in midfield. Don’t love the playing squad, but this is the worst standard of football we’ve ever had in the PL and it’s not relatively close.
 
FriedClams said:
There’s really no debating Amorims tenure so far, it’s fecking shit. -6 goal difference, more points behind the leaders than points we’ve won all season, and absolutely dire football with almost no exception. A run of 1 win in 6 PL home games where we lost to Newcastle, Brighton, crystal palace, Bournemouth and Nottingham forest. Every one of those games we’ve played 3-4-2-1, refused to adapt, and Been dominated in midfield. Don’t love the playing squad, but this is the worst standard of football we’ve ever had in the PL and it’s not relatively close.
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It's the worst squad we've ever had in the PL and it's not even close. By far and away the biggest factor in us being a terrible side.
 
Leftback99 said:
It's the worst squad we've ever had in the PL and it's not even close. By far and away the biggest factor in us being a terrible side.
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Would you have said at the start of the season Forest had a better squad than we did? The answer of course is you wouldn't, the difference between us and them is their manager has got them to play above themselves and ours well you watch the games
 
Gavinb33 said:
Would you have said at the start of the season Forest had a better squad than we did? The answer of course is you wouldn't, the difference between us and them is their manager has got them to play above themselves and ours well you watch the games
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No, but he thinks Maguire is our best CB so go figure.
 
Gavinb33 said:
Would you have said at the start of the season Forest had a better squad than we did? The answer of course is you wouldn't, the difference between us and them is their manager has got them to play above themselves and ours well you watch the games
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Spot on!

This squad should not be finishing below 8th. It’s certainly not good enough to get top 4 or mount a title charge but it is far better than what we are seeing.
 
Gavinb33 said:
Would you have said at the start of the season Forest had a better squad than we did? The answer of course is you wouldn't, the difference between us and them is their manager has got them to play above themselves and ours well you watch the games
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I had us 8th so it's really not that much of a huge swing you think it is for me. I can't say I took much notice of Forest's transfer business but Elliot and Milenkovic have been top additions for them. They've built a physical team for the PL that Ten Hag couldn't grasp was important.

I also pointed out the biggest issue in this squad is goals and we'd even miss McTominay on that front. And here we are....

You're talking to the wrong man if you want someone who rated this abomination of a team Ten Hag has built pre season.
 
Garethw said:
Spot on!

This squad should not be finishing below 8th. It’s certainly not good enough to get top 4 or mount a title charge but it is far better than what we are seeing.
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Tell us your best XI and I'll easily give you 8 better.
 
Leftback99 said:
Tell us your best XI and I'll easily give you 8 better.
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Here's the problem with that reasoning: the perception of a squad and the players in that squad are directly influenced by where they sit in the table. This is what I mean when referring to that line of thought as a circular argument.
 
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