Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

Martinez4midfield said:
If the Dorgu signing is any indication then the players they do bring in are going to be young and inexperienced most likely. In other words, even if your on team "proper rebuild" I don't think it's going to be Nirvana. They'll likely need a season or two to bed in.

So unless he performs some sort of miracle vs the Shanghai sharks in this mythical preseason, I'd expect another bottom half finish next hopefully people are patient and mentally prepared.
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Although I would not include Dorgu in this theory I believe we will focus more on snapping up very young players purely with a view to selling them on at a profit later
 
stepic said:
Because you guys are getting the semantic point wrong.

Let’s see if ChatGPT can do a better job at explaining:

The semantic difference lies in the distinction between coercion or external pressure (forcing someone’s hand) and direct compulsion (literally forcing someone).

• “Forcing someone’s hand” means applying pressure, limiting choices, or creating circumstances that leave someone with little realistic alternative but to act in a certain way. It implies external factors or strategic moves influencing their decision, even if they technically still have agency.

• Example: Amorim was forced to join United mid-season rather than in the summer because the club couldn’t risk waiting and potentially having to sign another manager instead.

• “Literally forcing someone” implies direct, overt compulsion, where the person has no choice in a physical or absolute sense. It suggests the use of physical force, threats, or extreme coercion.

• Example: Amorim was literally forced to join United—kidnapped, handcuffed, and dragged to Manchester against his will.

So in your example, Amorim was pressured or left with no viable alternative rather than being physically or absolutely compelled.
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Ugh, I meant you replied to me. As in I have no particular desire to argue with you about it and was more than happy to leave it as you suggested.
 
NZT-One said:
I think, this is the effect of "I am positive and I look for comfirmation" kicking in. At the end of ETH, the players looked mostly bereft of will and believe and with Ruud, at least that part was gone. But apart from that, he didn't really adjust too much. He also had a rather easy fixture list, a sample size of this size isn't really a good tool to use. That being said, Amorim brought a rather deep change in the team set up which for sure added to the existing issues. But to me, this isn't a negative factor per se. I was quite sure that the season was more or less done when ETH was sacked and half a season to bed in a new formation is certainly better than trying to bed it in in pre-season only.


But wasn't at that point ETH also using something that was very close to a double pivot anyway? I mean, that donut thing with no midfield wasn't in full force anymore. Had we kept Ruud, my feeling is we may be a few places up the table but still nowhere in contention for anything. Especially with the injuries and form the players had. It is difficult to say, what he would have done with Rash and Antony, but after all, I support sending them away.


It was a very boring game where no team looked too capable of anything. Real had more of the ball and looked a little more comfortable with it but didn't produce any endproduct. United defended rather disciplined and tried to catch them off-guard but with also nothing much to show for. The match should have been a 0:0. And it had no real new insights on anything.
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It wasn‘t boring: lots of up and down and chances. We should have scored three, easy. Sociedad had 2/3 good chances as well.
 
Wolfbot said:
It's not revisionism, he did relatively well albeit only for four games. Two teams we played over three of those weren't very good so it's impossible to know how it would have gone over a longer period.

People look fondly on it because although the football wasn't going to massively improve in such a short time, we looked the most comfortable we had done as a team for a long time with one of the best runs of results we've had in a long time to boot. It's only natural people will wander what if.

I don't believe it was luck, you don't have bad luck under two managers then get incredibly lucky under the interim in between. He might not have done much, but he certainly did something positive. To be honest, it just looked to me like the players were playing closer together and it really helped.
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To be honest it's not really rocket science is it. New manager bounce = look at the players you have and play them in roles suited + trying to improve mood and confidence.

Amorim has actively done the opposite of the two so it's not exactly surprising we don't look better.

The hope would be that the offset would be the more tactically we work on the system the better we look, but really there's nothing to see. It's telling Amorim has basically stopped saying we'll see improvements with more training time.

At this stage the best hope is we have an amazing summer window, sign 3-4 players that improve the first XI (feels like we have at best a 50 percent hit rate) and maybe we start getting a bit of a confidence and mood lift.
 
stevoc said:
The only manager that got the right amount of time was LVG. Moyes, Jose, Ole and Ten Hag all got at least 6 months longer than they should have had.
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Not sure anyone was seriously suggesting sacking Ole and Jose at the end of the 2nd full seasons where they both finished 2nd and lost a cup final. The both probably got a month too long in all fairness. Same with Moyes really.

ETH is the stand out, comfortably 6 months too long probably bordering on 12 months.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Sorry if I was unclear. I think we'll end up 16th this season and 12-16th in Amorim's two remaning seasons. We might have the cash to sack him but that would mean less cash for transfers. I think he'll be given at least another 6 months but it will not change much.
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I understood your point and I'm saying that the math do not add up. Amorim has allegedly a 6.5m wage, at June 30th he will 2 years in his contract which equates to 13m, we have that cash without changing our transfer budget but lets pretend that we are short of 13m. In the PL last year the difference between 15th and 10th was 14m, if you climb to 8th the difference is 19.8m. Unless the belief is that no other manager could be 8th or 10th next season, then the financially prudent move would be to sack the manager if money is a real problem. It may sound paradoxal but your expectations combined with your idea that we have money issues should lead to the sacking of the manager.
 
Longshanks said:
Not sure anyone was seriously suggesting sacking Ole and Jose at the end of the 2nd full seasons where they both finished 2nd and lost a cup final. The both probably got a month too long in all fairness. Same with Moyes really.

ETH is the stand out, comfortably 6 months too long probably bordering on 12 months.
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Plenty of people were done with Mourinho after his rant following the Sevilla loss. It was in March 2018.
 
Longshanks said:
Not sure anyone was seriously suggesting sacking Ole and Jose at the end of the 2nd full seasons where they both finished 2nd and lost a cup final. The both probably got a month too long in all fairness. Same with Moyes really.

ETH is the stand out, comfortably 6 months too long probably bordering on 12 months.
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Most were suggesting Ole shouldn't even have been given a contract while he was still interim before the end of the season, let alone sacking him
 
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Amorim should not be sack, Ineos created this mess with personnel issues. Find him a good striker, right back, attacking midfielder and a central midfielder. This results will improve. Hoijund is completely useless Infront of goal, Dalot is brain-dead footballer, Garnacho is really wasteful given all the opportunities. Lastly, we need another midfielder who can chip in with goals. Everything will turn around quickly as our defense is set.
 
JPRouve said:
I understood your point and I'm saying that the math do not add up. Amorim has allegedly a 6.5m wage, at June 30th he will 2 years in his contract which equates to 13m, we have that cash without changing our transfer budget but lets pretend that we are short of 13m. In the PL last year the difference between 15th and 10th was 14m, if you climb to 8th the difference is 19.8m. Unless the belief is that no other manager could be 8th or 10th next season, then the financially prudent move would be to sack the manager if money is a real problem. It may sound paradoxal but your expectations combined with your idea that we have money issues should lead to the sacking of the manager.
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I am guessing that the board keeps Amorim in the hope that he and a couple of decent signings can lift us to 4-6th next season. Sacking him in May would generate an immediate cost, while the increased income from this season's probable 16th to next year's maybe 8th place with a new manager would not be in our accounts until May 2026.

We were desperate for a LB in January and bought a young player from Lecce. Ait Nouri and Kertesz were too expensive. That should tell us a lot about our money issues.
 
Ronaldo's Love Child said:
Although I would not include Dorgu in this theory I believe we will focus more on snapping up very young players purely with a view to selling them on at a profit later
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That’s only if them players improve though. If we lose game after game and players don’t perform then the value instantly drops. Where as if players perform well and win us games then there price tag rises.
 
Longshanks said:
Not sure anyone was seriously suggesting sacking Ole and Jose at the end of the 2nd full seasons where they both finished 2nd and lost a cup final. The both probably got a month too long in all fairness. Same with Moyes really.

ETH is the stand out, comfortably 6 months too long probably bordering on 12 months.
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Given Mourinho's history of having a meltdown in year 3 of virtually every club he'd managed the contract extension seemed ill advised. And with how the 17/18 season ended especially in Europe, parting ways that summer would have been the sensible path to take.

WIth Ole there was no such negativity during his 2nd season but at the same time I doubt anyone within the club or fanbase really believed he could lead United to a title. By early 2021 I didn't think he was the one to take us to the next step. I was desperate for him to win the Europa, but again that summer probably should have been a time when the club could/should have decided to go in a different direction.

Post SAF the club have never been proactive (bar arguably with LVG). We've always waited until things go completely tits up and then react only when things get really bad. Look at last season, Ten Hag should have been sacked at least twice. Then again in the summer and again during the international break before we eventually did sack him. That dithering and indecision played no small part in where the club currently finds itself.
 
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Posh Red said:
Good point. Let’s bring Moyes back.
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In all likelihood a better manager than Amorim will ever turn out to be at the top level.
I love many fans wishful thinking on Amorim so desperately hope he turns out to be much better in the long run.

I’m fairly certain Moyes would’ve done a much better job closing out this season than Amorim has if he’d taken this job on mid season.
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
This is sickening. Bruno surrounded by literal shit.
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Yeah because Bruno never gives the ball away stupidly or costs us with moronic handballs or red cards.

As for Amorim, I thought the performance against Sociedad was a good marker. We largely nullified them and created the much better chances, it was clear to see our main issue was a lack of quality not bad coaching. And in regards to his treatment of the the youth, I can see his side of the equation. He does not want to throw youngsters into the deep end in what is the business end of the season and risk them taking a huge hit to their confidence and development. Of course in some cases he has no choice but I understand the hesitancy even though I'd prefer he does give them more of a chance. It's natural that when you feel the pressure, you'll turn to the likes of Casemiro and Lindelof ( much more impressive resumes) than a teenager making his first couple starts.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Sorry if I was unclear. I think we'll end up 16th this season and 12-16th in Amorim's two remaning seasons. We might have the cash to sack him but that would mean less cash for transfers. I think he'll be given at least another 6 months but it will not change much.
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I'll bet you a hundred bucks to the charity of the winners choosing that if Amorim is given all of next season we won't finish below 12th.
 
Revival2024 said:
Amorim is not Pep. He has no body of work to rely upon to get such a backing. He has to illustrate progress, even minimal. His current coaching set up can't get players to string 5 passes together. His team concede from nearly every set pieces. Almost every attack from the opposition leads to a goal. They can't seem to control games.

No matter how people dress it up, he will never and should never get 15 players to revolutionise the team. The best manager find ways to improve players and he hasn't.

Deep down, Amorim knows he is on his last legs. If you don't win games, you don't get more chances. Simples
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Pep has never ever taken over a team in the bottom half of a league.

Any manager that came or comes into this club is going to need much better quality players. Amorim is there because he was rated as the best young coach in a Europe and is the best coach we can attract. He’s a manager/coach, not a miracle worker. Pep who’s one of the best ever has shown this season what happens when you don’t have the right squad.
 
Ted Lasso said:
I see no evidence that being consistent winners of the Europa League will lead to becoming a title contender let alone a mainstay in the top 4 of a top league.

That's my main case here - winning the Europa League shouldn't be the benchmark for progress right now. Even if we look at Mourinhos tenure that's another United specific example of that.

-- for reference

Sevilla FC's European Cup Wins & Subsequent League & UCL Performance (Last 20 Years):
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Anyone who is remotely aware about the history of that club knows that the Europa League wins for Sevilla were a benchmark of progress. This was a club that hadn't finished in the top 4 in decades and was playing in the second division of Spanish football a few years before their first UEFA Cup win. During the long period in which they were winning UEFA/Europa Leagues they finished in the top 4 multiple times and even managed to be outside candidates for a title race.

Now if you want another example, Klopp led Liverpool to a Europa League final, which they lost. Then two seasons later they reached another European final (this time the Champions league), and the seaosn after they reached it again. That's 3 European finals in 4 years which showed a clear mark of progress.

The attitude around this is bizarrely defeatist. EL win gives you CL qualification. It's one of two ways to achieve it. The fact that United can't achieve it the 'normal' way this season doesn't mean they shouldn't do everything possible to achieve it the other way, it's the only concrete objective that remains this season.
 
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Steve 007 said:
Pep has never ever taken over a team in the bottom half of a league.

Any manager that came or comes into this club is going to need much better quality players. Amorim is there because he was rated as the best young coach in a Europe and is the best coach we can attract. He’s a manager/coach, not a miracle worker. Pep who’s one of the best ever has shown this season what happens when you don’t have the right squad.
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To the bolded part....I ask why??

We've seen Moyes walk into Everton and start winning games, Pereira at wolves do likewise, Lampard at Coventry, Muslic at Plymouth just to name a few walking into struggling teams and make an immediate difference without changing personnel.

The interesting thing to note about these managers/coaches are they all have their own style which they implemented at their respective clubs, but they did it with the players they have at at their disposal in mind.

I understand what Amorim is trying to do, just he can't do it with these players, it doesn't work as they just aren't suited to the system. Why persevere with something that is obviously not working, why not adapt?
He should be doing better, much much better.
 
Steve 007 said:
Pep has never ever taken over a team in the bottom half of a league.

Any manager that came or comes into this club is going to need much better quality players. Amorim is there because he was rated as the best young coach in a Europe and is the best coach we can attract. He’s a manager/coach, not a miracle worker. Pep who’s one of the best ever has shown this season what happens when you don’t have the right squad.
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By who? I thought those young coaches from Bundesliga, would be at the top of these ehm charts. Also, that Arne Slot was not highly rated or even known by some "expert" in a fancy article last summer clearly means feck all. (I had no clue who he was either to be fair)
 
stepic said:
Because you guys are getting the semantic point wrong.

Let’s see if ChatGPT can do a better job at explaining:

The semantic difference lies in the distinction between coercion or external pressure (forcing someone’s hand) and direct compulsion (literally forcing someone).

• “Forcing someone’s hand” means applying pressure, limiting choices, or creating circumstances that leave someone with little realistic alternative but to act in a certain way. It implies external factors or strategic moves influencing their decision, even if they technically still have agency.

• Example: Amorim was forced to join United mid-season rather than in the summer because the club couldn’t risk waiting and potentially having to sign another manager instead.

• “Literally forcing someone” implies direct, overt compulsion, where the person has no choice in a physical or absolute sense. It suggests the use of physical force, threats, or extreme coercion.

• Example: Amorim was literally forced to join United—kidnapped, handcuffed, and dragged to Manchester against his will.

So in your example, Amorim was pressured or left with no viable alternative rather than being physically or absolutely compelled.
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Irrespective of arguments for and against the point, do we really need posts based on Chat GPT now?
 
Difference between 15th and 8th place finish is 20M short
Not in champions league is 60-100M short and 10M cut by Adidas
Not in Europa league is 40-60M short

so we are easily losing close to 100M by not doing well in competitions itself, hope we fix that one quickly with good recruitment
 
JPRouve said:
Plenty of people were done with Mourinho after his rant following the Sevilla loss. It was in March 2018.
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I wanted Mourinho to get the United job - he got it later than he should have and I found out from here that something he did in his job outside the UK apparently made Sir Bobby Charlton completely oppsed to his appointment. Thanks for the reminder of that loose cannon rant, absolutely inappropriate.
 
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