Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[hellhunter]

Good point. Let’s bring Moyes back.

A better manager in the PL than Amorim for all we know

 

[Posh Red]

I always regret posting in here after giving in to the temptation The relentless moaning and negativity some display is actually impressive and I don’t know how you manage it

 

[JohnnyKills]

If we're going to bring in a manager who plays such a unique formation, we have to give him time to implement it.

For this to work, we need to buy players to suit the system and make the reserves and Junior teams play this way too. You can't do all that and then sack the manager early.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

I always regret posting in here after giving in to the temptation The relentless moaning and negativity some display is actually impressive and I don’t know how you manage it

The main negativity I see is on the pitch, You asked the question about a manager who improved passing under a new manager, and someone said Moyes and Everton. So you retort bring back Moyes. Moyes should never have been anywhere near United but at the same time he is a proven PL manager and has literally transformed Everton almost over night. Which shows it can be done without another rebuild, which is what it seems every new manager needs at United. I think what we are actualyl seeing is getting rid of AShworth whose job was to create an overall structure for the club, exactly so we dont need a rebuild every time.

 

[hellhunter]

If we're going to bring in a manager who plays such a unique formation, we have to give him time to implement it.

For this to work, we need to buy players to suit the system and make the reserves and Junior teams play this way too. You can't do all that and then sack the manager early.

Well we haven't, our youth teams don't play his system

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Using Pep as an example is fecking ludicrous l. He had Fernandinho, KdB, Silva, Aguero in his first line up. Wow I wonder why Pep was able to hit the ground running. Some of you are off your heads.

Even Klopp took over when they were 10th and finished a grand total of two places higher in 8th. It took major signings in the summer for them to jump to 4th the following season.

The person I was responding to was arguing that Guardiola needed 13 signings to play his way; you are arguing that he hit the ground running. The two of you are the ones who should be debating whether Guardiola was or wasn't terrible without signings, not me!

 

[JohnnyKills]

The worst thing is, this is what everyone wanted! I don't know one person that supports this club, that was happy with our situation or trajectory pre-Amorim and absolutely everyone was calling for a cultural reset, 'we're fragile mentally' etc. Well this is what you get when you do that. How anyone can expect to go through a reset but maintain stability is beyond me.

Totally agree.

The reason most managers have a honeymoon period is that they come in, bring the vibes and keep the same formation. Eventually the mood subsides, the manager gets sacked and the cycle begins again.

The route Amorim is taking is far trickier, but it's more likely to succeed long-term. I have no idea whether 3-4-3 will work, but 4-3-3 wasn't working either, right?

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

If most of the players will be shipped out ASAP then there's no point in teaching them to play the system as they won't play it.

Except some players WONT, and it’s better to play the new system now with low stakes for the ones that will stay (especially young players) as opposed to trying to learn every concept in a few weeks of summer training.

I don’t know, again I understand both sides of the argument I just tend to fall on the side of “this squad is really poor everywhere but defense, and attack is almost relegation level, so I’m not sure what you can do”.

 

[stepic]

We're going in circles, but the previous, also terribly failing coach, managed to get a minimum tune out of them and have them produce at least some numbers

Yes, a grand total of 8 goals by matchday 9, one of the worst totals in the leagues, with a massive 4 goals combined between Garnacho, Zirkzee and Hojlund. Such heights.

 

[Gavinb33]

The route Amorim is taking is far trickier, but it's more likely to succeed long-term. I have no idea whether 3-4-3 will work, but 4-3-3 wasn't working either, right?

You have the proof of this statement, why is it more likely what metric are using for this statement

 

[stepic]

The person I was responding to was arguing that Guardiola needed 13 signings to play his way; you are arguing that he hit the ground running. The two of you are the ones who should be debating whether Guardiola was or wasn't terrible without signings, not me!

you're conflating two different arguments.

Guardiola signing 13 players in 2 seasons was an example of him bringing in players that suited the way he wanted to play - to combat the nonsense point made by Insanity that 'we are the only club where a manager signs "their players" to improve the team'.

that doesn't mean that Guardiola did not inherit a vastly superior squad than ours, and hence didn't experience the same initial struggles as we are currently. i'm pretty sure if Amorim had KDB and Aguero in his squad he'd be having less struggles too - that wouldn't mean he still didn't need to bring in other players to improve the squad further and shape it in the way he wants to play.

i'm not sure what you're struggling with to be honest.

 

[The Mitcher]

Totally agree.

The reason most managers have a honeymoon period is that they come in, bring the vibes and keep the same formation. Eventually the mood subsides, the manager gets sacked and the cycle begins again.

The route Amorim is taking is far trickier, but it's more likely to succeed long-term. I have no idea whether 3-4-3 will work, but 4-3-3 wasn't working either, right?

You don't really know if it's more or less likely. Also, the issue with Ten Hag was more system than the formation. On paper it was 4-2-3-1, but in practice it was 4-1-4-1 with two tens because the other CM would push up and join the AM leaving a gaping hole in the middle. Amorim is both the system and the formation not being suitable.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

you guys consistently just throw this in like it's a trivial matter. it's the defining issue. even Klopp's Liverpool side he inherited had a functioning forward line that included 35 PL goals between Sturridge, Benteke, Coutinho and Firminho. compare that to our goal output from our forwards. come on, our attack is beyond bleak. and he still barely improved their league position his first season!

Liverpool squad and club were performing about at the same level as United currently are when Klopp as appointed.

In the 5 years before Klopp took over they averaged 64.4 points in the league, scored 65 goals on average, and their average league position was 5.8. All these numbers are inflated by the freak 2nd place finish where Suarez was Balon d'Or level and they scored 101 goals. Take that out and they averaged 59 points, 56 goals, and 7th place.

United on the other hand averaged 66.6 points (higher than Liverpool), 62.4 goals (3 less than Liverpool), and the average league position is 4.4 (higher than Liverpool).

The season before Klopp took over, Liverpool finished with 62 points (2 less than United last season) and scored 52 goals (5 less than United scored last season).

That is what the numbers say.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Guardiola signing 13 players in 2 seasons was an example of him bringing in players that suited the way he wanted to play - to combat the nonsense point made by Insanity that 'we are the only club where a manager signs "their players" to improve the team'.

It is an example that doesn't hold up under any scrutiny whatsoever.

 

[Eric's-collar]

Doesn't have to mean much but ever since Leicester game in the cup where we were definitely poor (especially first half) performances have mostly been bit better. Spurs away wasn't a bad performance, Everton I didn't watch but that was probably a poor one, Ipswich only saw 2nd half and that was good given we played with 10 men. Fulham wasn't a bad performance either despite loss on penalties. Then there's last night where we were better for at least 60-65 minutes before the penalty.

It's probably only slightly better performances than in January but hopefully we're moving into right direction. If we get knocked out of Europa it'll at least be just league games left and no excuses left for Amorim - he'll have plenty of time for training to make us look better. Results won't matter anymore as we're stuck in lower league position but at least try and improve us to extent.

They were all very poor, stop kidding yourself, the lack of quality in our squad is criminal

 

[stepic]

It is an example that doesn't hold up under any scrutiny whatsoever.

no scrutiny required, it literally happened. sorry if you can't understand the point, it has been explained to you sufficiently enough.

The season before Klopp took over, Liverpool finished with 62 points (2 less than United last season) and scored 52 goals (5 less than United scored last season).

That is what the numbers say.

and they added Benteke and Firminho following that season, adding 19 PL goals between them in the season Klopp arrived. that's to a team that already had Coutinho and Sturridge. how many goals have Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho delivered this season again, under two different managers?

 

[TsuWave]

“We have to survive Sunday”

 

[Blood Mage]

I always regret posting in here after giving in to the temptation The relentless moaning and negativity some display is actually impressive and I don’t know how you manage it

The team is a shit show and we're just reacting to what we're seeing with our eyes. Trust me, we would love to get back to being positive and to be excited for games again. I was excited for Amorim, best hire I could see at the time, but it's clear already that it isn't working out for whatever reason.

 

[TrivelaDeBruno]

I always regret posting in here after giving in to the temptation The relentless moaning and negativity some display is actually impressive and I don’t know how you manage it

100%

Playing the Benny Hill theme while reading this thread helps to apply proper context to some of the posts.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The team is a shit show and we're just reacting to what we're seeing with our eyes. Trust me, we would love to get back to being positive and to be excited for games again. I was excited for Amorim, best hire I could see at the time, but it's clear already that it isn't working out for whatever reason.

Think he is the best hire if the team was set up for him already or coming to a league that is not as aggressive and competitive so has time to build a squad and system without pressure. That is the clubs fault. They haven't even given him the basic tools to deal with, a good goalkeeper, attacking fullback/WB's, a creative midfielder who can hold possession and a bloody goalscorer. The squad is full of flakey characters who will not stand up to be counted when they need to. Could be he is the right manager but unfortunately at the wrong time.

 

[Zed 101]

For me, the adaptability thing is an anxious way of thinking based on fear. Nobody likes going through bad spells but sometimes it's a necessary evil. When you're attempting to change a culture or mindset within an organisation, you just can't flip flop and change your mind on your principles or beliefs. There's no certainty about any managers philosophy working at a club but I certainly don't want Amorim to abandon what has made his previous tenures so impressive when we've got a squad that just isn't up to it regardless of formation.

4-3-3, 4-4-2, 3-4-3, 5-3-2, It doesn't matter, we're not good enough, we're not physically up to it or dynamic enough and we're not going to do anything this season that matters anyway beyond sneaking a Europa League (where I'd actually argue we've probably been most successful due to the lower physical floor of the competition, we're still the only undefeated team in Europe this season). So there's no real reason to change his approach in Europe, or there's no reason for anyone to ask him to do that in my opinion anyway.

I think people are underestimating what Amorim is actually doing here on the whole. There's a lot of psychological evaluation taking place of the squad. It's about more than just, can this group play this formation, well maybe we should switch to 4-3-3 as they are struggling. It's just as much about the mentality of the players, he's challenging them. He's saying you're not used to playing this way, system wise and physically. Can you do it? Are you willing to be coachable? It's essentially survival of the fittest within the squad. For his tenure so far and until the end of this season, for this group of players it's 'can you show me you can be part of change at this club, do you have the mentality and energy for that?'. It's everyday he'll be watching as well. Can you train like I need? Can you behave like a representative of this club? Can you take the instructions I'm giving you and implement it on the pitch? Are you physically up to it, or are you willing to put in the effort to be physically up to it? (Some will never manage that). This could completely blow up in my face but I truly believe if we can do some good business in the summer simply by raising our physical and mental floor with incomings and departures, we will be so, so much better under him.

100% the club is at this stage whether it is Amorim or any other manager, because guess what we do not have the finances to keep spending £80m on individual players who will paper over the underlying issues in the team and in the club.

It is starting from the ground up, it is a revolution, some of the things INEOS are doing are unpalatable, but they are making sweeping changes throughout every part of the club, including the 1st team and no matter which manager it is they have to cut it to the bone in order to change the type and profile of player that we sign, why because it is sustainable and whilst the Glazer's are at the club there is no other way to proceed, they certainly are not going to clear the debt so that we can operate within our true financial means.

There is no alternative model at this point, if you fired Amorim and brought in Xavi or whoever, the same thing strip the team down and then build it up, you need manager who is capable of building a squad, not just cherry picking the most expensive players, is that Amorim? .... I think it is, well I hope it is, I am convinced that under Amorim and INEOS we will have a much better squad in 18 months time, whoever we have as a manager from that point (and I hope it is Amorim) will have a great opportunity to build a period of sustained success.

 

[Fox outside the box]

The team is a shit show and we're just reacting to what we're seeing with our eyes. Trust me, we would love to get back to being positive and to be excited for games again. I was excited for Amorim, best hire I could see at the time, but it's clear already that it isn't working out for whatever reason.

I can see both sides.

There are plenty of ways to be constructively frustrated. 442 and AJ Analysis have both done videos this week which absolutely highlight the efficiencies and issues but do so in a constructive way and discuss potential ways this could change or offer other sorts of solutions.

What tends to happen on places like here though is people compete to be the most angry and throw out the most ad-hominen attacks. I can see why some people react like that but equally, it's pretty tiresome and doesn't offer much in terms of discussion.

As entitled as people are to moan and whinge because the football is tiresome, other people are also entitled to find the same repeated whinging tiresome.

 

[RuudTom83]

As the squad had gotten worse over the last 3 seasons, the lower the team has finished.

It’s not rocket science!

If you add a world class CF to this squad and replace the Keeper you would see the team jump up a chunk of places in the table.

 

[BorisManUtd]

They were all very poor, stop kidding yourself, the lack of quality in our squad is criminal

Agree to disagree.

 

[stevoc]

He's too good to be at a club where his hands will be firmly tied behind his back. Too good for a club who's ambitions amount to 'make money for the owners'. Yeah I'd say that's accurate. Not the historical club itself, but the current version.

Two points, we have no idea how much the club will spend in the summer. And two top managers don't need open cheque books to improve a team.

Also we know the Galzers motivations but for Ratcliffe there ae much easier ways for him to make money than buying a football club.

 

[RedSky]

So apparently a 4-4-2 and a new coach will make this team fly?
Absolutely shocking from everyone involved, except Bruno.

Shocking, absolutely shocking. Simply cannot do the basics with these players.

 

[stevoc]

It's just copium to deal with diminished expectations from the manager.

Everyone is lambasting the players but when Amorim came in United were 4 points off top four. INEOS 100% hired Amorim early mid season to improve the club's standings. If the perspective on the players being crap was held by the hierarchy they would have waited until the summer and kept Ruud in charge.

Amorim was hired to improve the trajectory of the club not make things worse. His two and half year contract reflects this and that's why there's not one public statement of INEOS endorsing the manager, I reckon he doesn't have any reassurances this season and rightly so he's underperformed.

We can all argue where the club hoped to finish this season after sacking ETH but I don't think anyone can argue that they will have certainly expected improvement to some degree.

 

[stevoc]

Did we?
He asked for the summer and we said now or never,that's hardly forcing him.

Some seem to think so. It's another aspect of the Martyr cult building up around Ruben.

 

[Ezkay]

I hate the superiority complex I see fans feel because they think Amorim needs patience, even he can tell you himself he's doing an abysmal job regardless of what you think of the players. Arguments like he needs more time on the training pitch has been disproven, and that you need a team full of superstars to improve also disproven as we've seen multiple managers walk into teams and steady the ship/give them an upwards trajector. It's almost like people are forgetting how bad it is right now, we're not doing just poorly we are at the bottom of the bottom. Since he's come in I'm sure only Leicester, Ipswich and Southampton (all promoted teams) are below us in the form table

 

[stevoc]

Exactly.

The idea that we cannot expect any improvement without "his players" is preposterous.

The days of managers getting their own players should be firmly behind us. The club should be recruiting long term not just for the current manager.

 

[NLunited]

Was it? I thought the consensus was that we would be in for a period of transition?

No one expected it to be like this. Except me up to a point. I did not think Amorim would struggle this hard.

 

[RedSky]

Some seem to think so. It's another aspect of the Martyr cult building up around Ruben.

It's got nothing to do with being a cult. It's about using common fecking sense.

We have 3 fit forwards, they're all in woeful form with varying degrees of questionable talent. Our midfielders choices are horrific outside of Bruno and Ugarte and we have a GK that enjoys conceding stupid as feck goals. On top of all this we seem to have unnerving talent of throwing games by conceding stupid goals through individal errors. We have crap owners who fumbled the ETH decision and has fecked up recruitment for the past decade. None of this is on Amorim. He's been given one 20 year old transfer and expected to just deal with it. Shit show of a season sponsored by our fecking terrible owners.

I'm giving Amorim a completely clean slate for this season, if after the Summer window (assuming we actually spend money) we're still woeful by October/November then people will have justification for their complaints. He may well be a bad fit for the club, he might end up being a disaster. But every Manager especially given our current circumstances deserves at least one window and a pre season to attempt to sort this shite out. All of us would bin at least half of this squad and it's one of the smallest sqauds (currently) in the League.

 

[Snormac]

For those that are in the anti-Amorim camp, honest question: what level do you think this team should be performing at, and what would you expect him to do with it to get there? With as much specificity as possible please.

Its not a trap question, I'm just curious. Because what seems evident to me is Amorim's complete lack of options. But if there are options you're seeing but I'm not please let me know.

 

[bosnian_red]

For those that are in the anti-Amorim camp, honest question: what level do you think this team should be performing at, and what would you expect him to do with it to get there? With as much specificity as possible please.

Its not a trap question, I'm just curious. Because what seems evident to me is Amorim's complete lack of options. But if there are options you're seeing but I'm not please let me know.

I'm not anti Amorim, but I'd probably prefer us to go in a different direction to what he wants purely based on the idea of football he wants to build us towards. I'd rather pivot before going far down this road. I like wingers, he does not.

Have 0 expectations for any manager with this squad given who we have as our striker, so it's not a case of me thinking we should be doing way better. If anything I'm looking back and thinking I was way too harsh on Ten Hag (for his coaching). At least we looked somewhat ok going forward under him despite the forwards, though he was a nightmare for squad building and was hesitant to use Amad.

At a base level, any manager needs a reliable goalscorer for their system to start working. Players will lose belief if you aren't scoring and winning, and without goals, you'll never win. So Amorim doesn't have a chance unless we bring in a proper striker.

 

[stevoc]

It's got nothing to do with being a cult. It's about using common fecking sense.

We have 3 fit forwards, they're all in woeful form with varying degrees of questionable talent. Our midfielders choices are horrific outside of Bruno and Ugarte and we have a GK that enjoys conceding stupid as feck goals. On top of all this we seem to have unnerving talent of throwing games by conceding stupid goals through individal errors. We have crap owners who fumbled the ETH decision and has fecked up recruitment for the past decade. None of this is on Amorim. He's been given one 20 year old transfer and expected to just deal with it. Shit show of a season sponsored by our fecking terrible owners.

I'm giving Amorim a completely clean slate for this season, if after the Summer window (assuming we actually spend money) we're still woeful by October/November then people will have justification for their complaints. He may well be a bad fit for the club, he might end up being a disaster. But every Manager especially given our current circumstances deserves at least one window and a pre season to attempt to sort this shite out. All of us would bin at least half of this squad and it's one of the smallest sqauds (currently) in the League.

Ok great, I'm probably in the same boat. But I was referring to the idea that he was 'forced' to come to United.

 

[dcrompton]

Well we haven't, our youth teams don't play his system

This is a good point. I went to the FA Youth cup v Arsenal and was surprised we were playing a back 4. If Amorim is the long term plan then I would’ve thought his formation would be implemented so we can both see what youth players shine in this formation as well as preparing them to slot into first team

 

[stepic]

Ok great, I'm probably in the same boat. But I was referring to the idea that he was 'forced' to come to United.

He wanted to join United. He was forced to come mid season or miss out on the job altogether. I’m not sure why so many people are struggling with this very simple reality.

 

[stevoc]

He wanted to join United. He was forced to come mid season or miss out on the job altogether. I’m not sure why so many people are struggling with this very simple reality.

He chose to join earlier than he ideally would have wanted as he didn't want to miss out on the opportunity.

But he wasn't forced to come mate.

 

[Ted Lasso]

Sevilla are in serious financial trouble, partly due to their inability to qualify for Europe or perform up to expected standards there.

They are actually a good example of how 'general performance', 'health of the club', and 'future performance' are not independent variables, they all influence each other.

Of course the situation is different because United are a much wealthier club, but still some lessons to be learned.

I see no evidence that being consistent winners of the Europa League will lead to becoming a title contender let alone a mainstay in the top 4 of a top league.

That's my main case here - winning the Europa League shouldn't be the benchmark for progress right now. Even if we look at Mourinhos tenure that's another United specific example of that.

-- for reference

Sevilla FC's European Cup Wins & Subsequent League & UCL Performance (Last 20 Years)

1. 2005–06 UEFA Cup

2006–07 La Liga: 3rd (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16

2007–08 La Liga: 5th (No UCL)

2008–09 La Liga: 3rd (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16



2. 2006–07 UEFA Cup

2007–08 La Liga: 5th (No UCL)

2008–09 La Liga: 3rd (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16

2009–10 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Eliminated in Play-off Round



3. 2013–14 UEFA Europa League

2014–15 La Liga: 5th (No UCL)

2015–16 La Liga: 7th (No UCL)

2016–17 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16



4. 2014–15 UEFA Europa League

2015–16 La Liga: 7th (No UCL)

2016–17 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16

2017–18 La Liga: 7th (No UCL)



5. 2015–16 UEFA Europa League

2016–17 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Quarter-finals

2017–18 La Liga: 7th (No UCL)

2018–19 La Liga: 6th (No UCL)



6. 2019–20 UEFA Europa League

2020–21 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Group Stage

2021–22 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Group Stage

2022–23 La Liga: 12th (No UCL)



7. 2022–23 UEFA Europa League

2023–24 La Liga: 14th

 

[The Mitcher]

I see no evidence that being consistent winners of the Europa League will lead to becoming a title contender let alone a mainstay in the top 4 of a top league.

That's my main case here - winning the Europa League shouldn't be the benchmark for progress right now. Even if we look at Mourinhos tenure that's another United specific example of that.

-- for reference

Sevilla FC's European Cup Wins & Subsequent League & UCL Performance (Last 20 Years)

1. 2005–06 UEFA Cup

2006–07 La Liga: 3rd (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16

2007–08 La Liga: 5th (No UCL)

2008–09 La Liga: 3rd (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16



2. 2006–07 UEFA Cup

2007–08 La Liga: 5th (No UCL)

2008–09 La Liga: 3rd (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16

2009–10 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Eliminated in Play-off Round



3. 2013–14 UEFA Europa League

2014–15 La Liga: 5th (No UCL)

2015–16 La Liga: 7th (No UCL)

2016–17 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16



4. 2014–15 UEFA Europa League

2015–16 La Liga: 7th (No UCL)

2016–17 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Round of 16

2017–18 La Liga: 7th (No UCL)



5. 2015–16 UEFA Europa League

2016–17 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Quarter-finals

2017–18 La Liga: 7th (No UCL)

2018–19 La Liga: 6th (No UCL)



6. 2019–20 UEFA Europa League

2020–21 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Group Stage

2021–22 La Liga: 4th (Qualified for UCL) → UCL: Group Stage

2022–23 La Liga: 12th (No UCL)



7. 2022–23 UEFA Europa League

2023–24 La Liga: 14th

Nobody is suggesting this. We are suggesting that winning it this year will go a long way to achieving the summer's transfer and financial goals much better than missing out. We'll get prize money and champions league money on top of it.