I know.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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Imagine being a coach, witnessing this from players not signed by you, and you’ve got people banging on about formations etc
I sometimes wonder how coaches bite their lip with some of the rubbish fans and pundits come out with, but I suppose they just don’t want to throw their players under the bus.We're going in roundabouts rather it's the players or manager without considering the fact that it can be both sides doing a terrible job. We've recruited insanely bad over the years, and have brought in managers unsuitable to whatever strengths they have even if they're minimal. That's why Ole originally worked out well, he played to the strengths of the squad before his obvious shortcomings as a manager reared it's ugly head.
Only thing I would say is they should have left him until next summer. They know which system he plays and what attributes those players would need. They could have kept Ruud on and be analysing the squad. It is not rocket science that some are far too slow, and cannot pass wind nevermind the ball. It doesn't take a genius to see we need a prolific striker. They buggered our season in the summer, loading the squad with more players and then rushed Ruben into taking the job. That is all on the powers that be.
The worst thing is, this is what everyone wanted! I don't know one person that supports this club, that was happy with our situation or trajectory pre-Amorim and absolutely everyone was calling for a cultural reset, 'we're fragile mentally' etc. Well this is what you get when you do that. How anyone can expect to go through a reset but maintain stability is beyond me.
This line of thought is exclusive to this club. I have never heard a new manager at their new club needing to sign "their players" before they can show any improvement.Imagine being a coach, witnessing this from players not signed by you, and you’ve got people banging on about formations etc
Doesn't have to mean much but ever since Leicester game in the cup where we were definitely poor (especially first half) performances have mostly been bit better. Spurs away wasn't a bad performance, Everton I didn't watch but that was probably a poor one, Ipswich only saw 2nd half and that was good given we played with 10 men. Fulham wasn't a bad performance either despite loss on penalties. Then there's last night where we were better for at least 60-65 minutes before the penalty.
It's probably only slightly better performances than in January but hopefully we're moving into right direction. If we get knocked out of Europa it'll at least be just league games left and no excuses left for Amorim - he'll have plenty of time for training to make us look better. Results won't matter anymore as we're stuck in lower league position but at least try and improve us to extent.
It's probably only slightly better performances than in January but hopefully we're moving into right direction. If we get knocked out of Europa it'll at least be just league games left and no excuses left for Amorim - he'll have plenty of time for training to make us look better. Results won't matter anymore as we're stuck in lower league position but at least try and improve us to extent.
Yeah Pep definitely didn’t sign 13 players in his first two seasons to shape the squad into the way he wanted to play. To use just one example.
No one has asked him to win the league this season. The minimal ask is to improve performances and not lose 50% of your premier league games.
Yup, no else could have done that. Absolutely no one.
To add: Both Pep and Klopp were able to show signs of what they were building towards from the very beginning.
Weren't City already building a squad toward him coming as well, or at least getting the structure in place in the background.
Watch his recent interview with Rio. In his words "I didn't think we would be this bad".
His often repeated line the past few months have been:
"I don't know. I would change it if I knew"
"I just want to win right now. It is easier when you are winning"
Exactly. If you had to take out all the players that were vaguely suited to Amorims style of football the only one he isn't missing currently is Bruno. Hes come in mid-season and been dealt a shocking hand. Has he done well? No, not in my opinion. Is that surprising under the circumstances? Not even a little.
I was thinking about this earlier and I think the club are just in a shit position right now and bringing in Amorim at this point is no better or worse than if they had done it in the summer realistically. Cons, the players clearly aren't taking on board what he wants or are incapable of it and thats never good. Bad league position. Likely no europe. Pros, we know that a chunk of this squad needs binning, the Rashford situation has come to a head and we haven't wasted a full season of Amorim.
If Ruud took over for the rest of the season and we finished 7th or 8th lets say, what would have happened in the summer. We would have brought Amorim in, likely not bought him the players he actually needed and we would have had this current season next season and he would have had the knives out for him because he had a transfer window and a pre-season. There is a lot of talk of needing to sell before we buy. Currenly Rashford and Antony are on the chopping block. Would they have been if Ruud was still here? Probably not. Rashford would just have been next seasons issue.
We've got a strong history of over performing our underlying stats when it comes to league position and subsequently ignoring the fact we are a bit shit. That would 100% have happened this summer. I don't think there is much danger of that now.
Look at the individual errors though, whether it's being loose in possession, wrong decisions, GK blunders or missing sitters. It's impossible to build anything when the players are making these mistakes, and I'm certain that they work on these things in training. Perhaps the players need to be talking to a psychologist to figure out why they have such a mental block on the pitch these days. It can't come down to formations or tactics because we're not even getting to the point where we can assess that, because of these mistakes.
Last seasons our xpts had us in 14th place, Ten Hag left us in 14th place and now we are in 14th place. Perhaps the answer is absolutely obvious...we're just not very good.
Amorim is not Pep. He has no body of work to rely upon to get such a backing. He has to illustrate progress, even minimal. His current coaching set up can't get players to string 5 passes together. His team concede from nearly every set pieces. Almost every attack from the opposition leads to a goal. They can't seem to control games.
No matter how people dress it up, he will never and should never get 15 players to revolutionise the team. The best manager find ways to improve players and he hasn't.
Deep down, Amorim knows he is on his last legs. If you don't win games, you don't get more chances. Simples
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We are not very good, true. However, one coach lost his job and the other got hired because we wanted to do better than those Xpts and Rpts (Real points). If he could do only as bad TH, then there was no point in replacing him and spending a shit ton in firing him and hiring someone else. The new management team could have worked to improve the playing squad and let ETH continue with a better squad of players. He at least won two trophies with these shitehawks and wouldn't have needed 15 players to come in immediately.
This goes to my earlier point about a system needing to perform acceptably when implemented.
Guardiola's system worked acceptably well from the beginning. They finished 3rd with 78 points. They scored 80 goals. He did not need 13 players to implement his system!
Ok. He had a better squad. But Klopp's system also worked acceptably well from the beginning, and their squad was not very good! They won games with big scorelines, they reached two finals, they scored 8 goals less than the PL's highest scoring team that season. They were inconsistent, yes, but he did not need "his" players to show "his" style for at least a few games!
Exactly.
The idea that we cannot expect any improvement without "his players" is preposterous.
They have hardly ever been able to pass the ball, from different squads to different managers. Maybe that is down to the signing we make. Where passing percentage has not been a priority, but it not being so has stopped us reaching a high level.
Using Pep as an example is fecking ludicrous l. He had Fernandinho, KdB, Silva, Aguero in his first line up. Wow I wonder why Pep was able to hit the ground running. Some of you are off your heads.
Even Klopp took over when they were 10th and finished a grand total of two places higher in 8th. It took major signings in the summer for them to jump to 4th the following season.
Imagine being a coach, witnessing this from players not signed by you, and you’ve got people banging on about formations etc
"He's got to be more flexible with his system "
i'm not suggesting you did. you literally just said 'I have never heard a new manager at their new club needing to sign "their players" before they can show any improvement.' - did Pep come in and sign more than a dozen players in order to improve the team, and get them playing the way he wants them to play, or not? simple question.
you guys consistently just throw this in like it's a trivial matter. it's the defining issue. even Klopp's Liverpool side he inherited had a functioning forward line that included 35 PL goals between Sturridge, Benteke, Coutinho and Firminho. compare that to our goal output from our forwards. come on, our attack is beyond bleak. and he still barely improved their league position his first season!
Kinda irrelevant since this isn't something we can do currently. We need a manager who can perform with 75% of the current squad
Very good post. Promote this man
Astonishing right. One of the best strikers in PL history along with a world class DM and 2 absolutely WC CMs. Shocking how he wasn't relegated right?!
As to other managers coming in and doing better. Yes they do. And if we went for a manager that played 4-4-2 we would likely be having a much better season. As it is, we went for a manager who plays a completely different style of football that requires specialists in certain key positions. Positions in which we possess zero players of the right quality or style. I say specialists but what I mean is just quality players who can also run. These sort of players can work in a lot of systems but we don't have any of them.
I would argue that perhaps Mount would have been ideal for one of the 10s but he has been fit for precisely 10 minutes since Amorim arrived. Without the WBs and the 10s we simply cannot play his system effectively. Should he change it? I don't know. I don't know how much he could change it without completely abandoning it and then we have a manager playing a formation he doesn't like, know or even intend to play in the future. All for the benefit of a few league positions.
I think when he says he didn't think we would be this bad or struggle this much he was talking in holistic terms. He assumed (I think like many United managers) that you cannot have a squad that is this expensive and genuinely have players this poor. You cannot have players who cannot pass or do simple things like running when asked. He assumed they wouldn't have the mental resilience of Eyore.
I think we signed Amorim in the hope that we would be better than the absolute worst that ten hag offered ?
it's not irrelevant because it negates Insanity's insane point about managers not ever needing to make their own signings to improve the team.
yes, that's the plan. most sensible people just appreciate it will take more than 4 months and one signing to make that happen.
It's not an insane take at all. The job is first and foremost to coach and improve the team. It's fair to say you can't expect the optimum without some chosen signings, it's nonsense to claim the coach shouldn't deliver at all without signings
when your squad is relying on goals from Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho, I beg to differ.
We're going in circles, but the previous, also terribly failing coach, managed to get a minimum tune out of them and have them produce at least some numbers
It's amazing Bruno still manages to find the will to get out of bed each morning. Talk about surrounded by dross.
Can anyone provide an example of a team that is as bad as United at passing the ball, who then improved in that aspect dramatically simply by changing the manager?
Can you name one that improved under those circumstances without changing the manager?
There's a huge grey area though, which the club knew about, and that is his system. The reports at the time said the club didn't want to move for him in the summer as they knew our squad didn't suit. So I'm sure the fact that only a few players look at home in the system will come as no surprise. and this goes some way to explaining results and performances. What is shocking is just how much we struggle in his system, West Ham have adopted to it far better than we have. I watched his Sporting side and this is nothing like what they were showing.
I don't know, I'm losing confidence in the whole thing myself but I feel like he's been set up for failure and I actually believe that if INEOS sack him then we're in bigger trouble than we thought.
If you have multiple players that aren’t good at passing the ball, changing the manager isn’t going to change that, no matter how much you try and convince yourself it will.
Everton?
Can you name me any that improved by upgrading playing staff? Yes, you probably can.
Good point. Let’s bring Moyes back.
We won't be making big moves, so this won't happen anyway