Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Pogue Mahone]

It's 2-3 from the likely starting XI. But one thing Amorim did well so far has been in game adjustments and subs, something he wasn't capable to do at all this game for obvious reasons

Exactly. Basically playing a game with no subs is a huge problem. To have a bench that weak is genuinely unprecedented. Also the fact that we were missing starters and the players we would want to replace them with.

It’s a more long term issue but having moved on Rashford and Antony (something almost every United fan thinks needed to happen) we’re incredibly short of depth up front. The part of our team that’s been most dysfunctional all season. So with Amad being out we not only miss our best and most important player under Amorim we miss him in an area of the pitch where we’re woefully under strength to begin with.

To sum up these dire straits as “only 2 starters injured” is ridiculous.

 

[Leftback99]

It's would be interesting to see where people think this team should finish if the league started tomorrow.

I said 8th pre season but I underestimated the likes of Bournemouth, Forest who I would say have comfortably better first XIs than us now. If you can't score goals you are nowhere in the PL.

 

[romufc]

It's would be interesting to see where people think this team should finish if the league started tomorrow.

I said 8th pre season but I underestimated the likes of Bournemouth, Forest who I would say have comfortably better first XIs than us now. If you can't score goals you are nowhere in the PL.

Whilst you underestimated those teams, wouldn't you have overestimated some teams too? Who did you have in your top 8 ?

Also this is in hindsight... you always get 1/2 over performing teams in the PL and a few underperforming them.

Under the current manager and form, we would probably be in the relegation zone if league started tomorrow.

 

[erikcred]

It's 2-3 from the likely starting XI. But one thing Amorim did well so far has been in game adjustments and subs, something he wasn't capable to do at all this game for obvious reasons

He’s been doing good in game adjustments because his starting game plan and/or team has been so bad so often that it’d be almost impossible not to improve it in the second half.

 

[hellhunter]

He’s been doing good in game adjustments because his starting game plan and/or team has been so bad so often that it’d be almost impossible not to improve it in the second half.

I don't disagree. It baffles me how he can identify stuff during games and change it via subs but apparently not between games

 

[Pexbo]

You’re being ridiculous now. “Only 2 players were really missing”. Wise up FFS.

When people are using bad faith arguments, it’s a good time to put them on ignore. Absolute waste of time agenda posting.

 

[Brand Nubian]

Yes, I actually do expect a noticeable improvement.. those who don't are just here to give him more excuses.

Firstly, he has had full week training sessions since mid January anyway, yet there are no improvements from Ipswich game.

Secondly, out of the starting 11, only 2 players were really missing.. Amad and Ugarte. Spurs outplayed us whilst they have had a bigger injury concern.

Stop making excuses for the manager underperforming this badly.

Agreed, especially as that televised first training session was absolutely world class. Even Rashford was willing to run about there with smile on his face, while Jonny Evans apparently noted it was the best training session he experienced since Ron Atkinson.

 

[UnitedSofa]

 

[Wolfbot]

There are also 3 new defenders in that back 5 from last season. So what's happening there? Personnel across different sets of players?

The players being shite thing is used far too much around here. There is truth in things like the keeper making monumental errors, forwards not finishing chances, some bad attitudes etc.

The squad has been changed multiple times over the last ten years though, many of the players have been great for other teams which is why we signed them in the first place, and we've even seen players leave United and go on to do well again elsewhere.

We definitely have too much inexperience being relied on as first choice, particularly in forward areas, that's a huge issue.

We also struggle with balance in the midfield, we've had good passers with a lack of pace and stamina who then get tired and can no longer pass, and we've had players with great engines who were technically limited, we've never really had players who can do both or been able to select a complimentary midfield often, especially when we're essentially only putting two bodies in there.

We also don't know what the players are being instructed to do, ie players constantly chopping back, where the strikers are running to, how many bodies we're committing forward/holding back...so it's hard to say whether it's the players as individuals making seemingly poor choices all the time or if they are trying to do what they've been asked.

I think we'd look a million times better for getting a few more quality, experienced players in instead of 'young, high potential' at the moment and really addressing the options and qualities we need in midfield.

One thing I am sure of is that loads of good players aren't suddenly average and poor in reality, even though it appears that way when they are on the pitch for Utd as things stand.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Can we appreciate how completely moronic the actual question is?

'You have actually won 6 of your last 8, on the other hand, in the league, you've lost seven of your last eleven. So which of those stats do you think is a like a true representation of where you're at?'

 

[Leftback99]

Whilst you underestimated those teams, wouldn't you have overestimated some teams too? Who did you have in your top 8 ?

Also this is in hindsight... you always get 1/2 over performing teams in the PL and a few underperforming them.

Under the current manager and form, we would probably be in the relegation zone if league started tomorrow.

Liverpool
City
Arsenal
Chelsea
Villa
Spurs
Newcastle

I'd have Brighton ahead of us now too. We are Fulham, Palace, Brentford, West Ham level.

We didn't improve the first XI in the summer which was a huge problem.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

Can we appreciate how completely moronic the actual question is?

'You have actually won 6 of your last 8, on the other hand, in the league, you've lost seven of your last eleven. So which of those stats do you think is a like a true representation of where you're at?'

I find his quotes really worrying, he says the performances are more important than results, but the performances are really worrying. Sure we missed chances against Spurs, but that was the worst Spurs team I have ever seen. And we still left the midfield wide open and the defense is not solid. Other recent games have been even worse, with incoherent selections and deployments and no attacking threat. Ten Hag used to come out with similar guff.

 

[romufc]

Liverpool
City
Arsenal
Chelsea
Villa
Spurs
Newcastle

I'd have Brighton ahead of us now too. We are Fulham, Palace, Brentford, West Ham level.

We didn't improve the first XI in the summer which was a huge problem.

I would say City, Spurs, Villa have not been anywhere near standard this season, so you overestimated them.

We indeed improved our starting 11 in the summer. We signed Ugarte which improves on Casemiro and De Ligt / Yoro is an improvement on Maguire / Evans /Lindelof.

Liverpool didn't improve on their 11 and a new manager and are going to win the league.... Its not all about transfers.

 

[Regalia]

When people are using bad faith arguments, it’s a good time to put them on ignore. Absolute waste of time agenda posting.

Surprisingly, I'm pretty sure I saw that poster defending Amorim a week ago. Not sure what made him go full time meltdown hysterical WUM mode

But yes, to your point, half this thread are literally bad faith arguments and ad hominem remarks against the manager, or know-it-alls imparting their footballing and tactical wisdom to the masses.

 

[Leftback99]

I would say City, Spurs, Villa have not been anywhere near standard this season, so you overestimated them.

We indeed improved our starting 11 in the summer. We signed Ugarte which improves on Casemiro and De Ligt / Yoro is an improvement on Maguire / Evans /Lindelof.

Liverpool didn't improve on their 11 and a new manager and are going to win the league.... Its not all about transfers.

Disagree on the improvements, we lost McTominay and his goals too. De Ligt isn't better than Varane (other than fitness) or Maguire.

Spurs and City have had major injury problems so it's not that surprising. Villa have been average but still far better than us and I expect will finish top 8 still.

Liverpool didn't need to improve their starting XI, they nearly won the league and more last season.

We were a team with underlyings of 15th and didn't upgrade, exactly where we find ourselves.

 

[Eugenius]

Getting rid of deadwood I'd say. It would be personally better for him right now if Antony and Rashford were options. But he's prioritised the longer term view of what's best for the club. Obviously made it clear to Casemiro as well he's not wanted. So that's some important squad shaping.

And just being here and making a start. If we'd waited till summer what would be the benefit? Another half season of rubbish under ETH. Amorim arriving in the summer and not knowing anything about the players.

Getting rid of players who don't play doesn't help us improve.

 

[Leftback99]

Getting rid of players who don't play doesn't help us improve.

Obviously not immediately. But the important thing is getting that money on the pitch in the future.

Rashford (£15-20m per year wages)
Antony (£24-£28m per year amortisation and wages)
Casemiro (£30-35m PY amort+wages)

£75m+ a year of players who offer nothing when they should be basically our best players making a difference to results.

Add the likes of Mount and Shaw and obvious where the problem is.

 

[romufc]

Disagree on the improvements, we lost McTominay and his goals too. De Ligt isn't better than Varane (other than fitness) or Maguire.

Spurs and City have had major injury problems so it's not that surprising. Villa have been average but still far better than us and I expect will finish top 8 still.

Liverpool didn't need to improve their starting XI, they nearly won the league and more last season.

We were a team with underlyings of 15th and didn't upgrade, exactly where we find ourselves.

We lost McTominay but lets not act as if he was something special for us... we all wanted him gone. We improved on AWB with Mazroui.

Bournemouth have alot of injuries, they are still up there. Spurs were just as bad before their injury issues, I dont get this narrative.

Liverpool finished 3rd last season, they didn't nearly win the league though. That is nonsense, go look at every Liverpool fan, no one said they dont need any signings to win the league, they were all crying out for a CB and CM. They also hired a new manager.

It seems you are very good at hindsight, so I will stop responding as you knew Liverpool needed no signings to win the league with a new manager.

 

[Toshey]

Disagree on the improvements, we lost McTominay and his goals too. De Ligt isn't better than Varane (other than fitness) or Maguire.

Spurs and City have had major injury problems so it's not that surprising. Villa have been average but still far better than us and I expect will finish top 8 still.

Liverpool didn't need to improve their starting XI, they nearly won the league and more last season.

We were a team with underlyings of 15th and didn't upgrade, exactly where we find ourselves.

The FA cup win really papered over the huge cracks, didn't it?

And in the summer we didn't go for Marmoush, Burkardt, Lookman, Retegui or anyone who actually scores, we went for Joshua Zirkzee.
We were completely fecked the very moment we announced him.
After him we added a bunch of players on the same level as the rest, no improvement there whatsoever. De Ligt is not better than Maguire. Ugarte is not better than McTominay. Mazraoui is not better than Dalot. Yoro is another youngster.

INEOS completely screwed us by allowing ETH to stay and by financing this summer window.

 

[MUEricTheKing]

I have just finished reading all these pages from Sunday to now.

I have seen so many people questioning the 3-4-3 formation.

Did it look this unorganized and uncoordinated when Palace beat us 2-0 using the same formation? The answer is no.

The fact some people are even saying, change to suit these players is astounding, how many of these players would get into Citys, Arsenals or Liverpools starting XI?

I am a huge fan of Amorim, do I know if he is going to be the right guy no, the football his Sporting side played in the CL was 5x faster and more technical than anything this squad can produce, he needs time to bring in the players that suit his style of football, or any modern style of football for that matter than kick and chase, 4 months during the season, is no time to truly judge a manager implementing a modern style of football on some of the lowest technical, tactical and physical bunch of United players I have ever seen in my 25 years.

That being said, he is not short of criticism:

The speed at which we play helps opposition sit deep in their shape which we cannot break down, is this to stop the basketball games?
The constant use of Hojlund as a target man who couldn't trap a bag of cement, Are we that crap at playing out?
Dalot consistently starting before all these injuries, must be someone else?

Before anyone goes if we sign only 3-4-3 players then it's no different to ETH, will be stuck with them, 3 ATB or 4 ATB the starting XI needs these players:

ST - Technical can get involved in link play, can create his own chances and scores goals.
GK - Sweeper Keeper who helps the team play a high line, play out from the back and actual makes crucial saves and doesn't throw it in his own net.
LCB - Fast, Technical can play a high line and break the lines.
CM - Athletic, technical who can cover ground win duels and dictate the tempo.

I haven't included AMs as they are more system based but we do need to look at a replacement for Bruno at some point, he's not getting any younger and can't be built around him for to much longer.

Amorim needs time same as any manager, far to much money wasted by incompetent people, on players who we can't shift or having to take a hit on, hopefully with a preseason a changing of the squad even a small amount might show some progress.

I for one hope he is going to give some of the academy lads some opportunities between now and the end of season, with current injuries I think some will be accelerated but it's what this club was built on, from the busby babes to the class of 92.

This one

Genuinly curious about Bo Henriksen. What makes you a fan?

He took a team called Bronshøj from the 4 best league in Denmark to 1th in the second best league. Then the club got in financial trouble and he left.
Then he went to Horsens where he took a semi professional side from the second best league in Denmark to midt table finish the Best league in Denmark.
Then he went to FC Midtjylland and made them into a top club in Danmark.
Then he went to FC Zürich and took them from relegation to the top.
And then Mainz from relegation places to top of the Bundesliga.

Every where he goes the players is over performing. He never want new players or complain about injuries. He just work and get the best out of everyone in the club.

It’s between Thomas Frank and Bo Henriksen who going to be our next national coach of Denmark.

Wait and see he will manage at top club in the Bundesliga in a couple of years and then off to the premier league.

Just love at coach who can work with every players from semi pro to top Bundesliga stars. He’s the reel deal.

The right manager also need to get every players head straight. A manager with good man management would let Rashford og Sancho go. He would transform their attitude and get the best out of them.

 

[Leftback99]

We lost McTominay but lets not act as if he was something special for us... we all wanted him gone. We improved on AWB with Mazroui.

Bournemouth have alot of injuries, they are still up there. Spurs were just as bad before their injury issues, I dont get this narrative.

Liverpool finished 3rd last season, they didn't nearly win the league though. That is nonsense, go look at every Liverpool fan, no one said they dont need any signings to win the league, they were all crying out for a CB and CM. They also hired a new manager.

It seems you are very good at hindsight, so I will stop responding as you knew Liverpool needed no signings to win the league with a new manager.

Yeah stop responding because you've got no argument about how good our team is.

I didn't predict Liverpool winning the league before the season, no. But I did say very early on this season they should be favourites and got laughed at. Maybe I'm just a better judge of quality than most.

Liverpool were 2 points clear with 8 games to go. 'Nonsense' they were close though.

 

[Leftback99]

The FA cup win really papered over the huge cracks, didn't it?

And in the summer we didn't go for Marmoush, Burkardt, Lookman, Retegui or anyone who actually scores, we went for Joshua Zirkzee.
We were completely fecked the very moment we announced him.
After him we added a bunch of players on the same level as the rest, no improvement there whatsoever. De Ligt is not better than Maguire. Ugarte is not better than McTominay. Mazraoui is not better than Dalot. Yoro is another youngster.

INEOS completely screwed us by allowing ETH to stay and by financing this summer window.

The over reaction to the FA Cup win was ridiculous. People collectively lost their minds despite over a year of evidence we were going backwards.

 

[pascell]

This resonates a lot with how we've performed since he became manager, especially when you look at the performances we put in against Liverpool and Arsenal, which even though they were good performances, they pissed off Amorim because the players have picked and chosen the games they decide to perform in.

I hope he now knows who needs weeding out of this squad, because even getting rid of say 4 of them and replacing them with 2 with the correct mentality, will drastically improve the team. It will be a bit-by-bit approach with transfers because of our financial issues, but soon we will have a squad consisting of 3/4 with the correct attitude, instead of 1/3 like this current squad.

 

[Shane88]

If we lose against Everton, the media will start running with the "job in danger" articles with Ipswich being "make or break.", whether it's true or not.

 

[stevoc]

I’m not saying we don’t need to see something. I backed Ten Hag last season primarily because of what we’d seen in his first. He can’t just lose every week and retain the backing of the fans, we will need to see something. But I don’t think it’s fair to judge him until he’s been given some of the tools he needs to do the job.

Ten Hag had a pre season and a summer transfer window before he even played a competitive game. Amorim came in mid season against his will, and was thrust straight into a hectic Christmas schedule followed by Thursday/Sunday fixtures. It sounds like I'm making excuses, but as far as I’m concerned I’m just being fair.

Fair enough mate. I'm reserving judgement on Amorim myself for the time being. But I fear if he doesn't at least somewhat start turning it around soon, I fear he might never.

And at the very least he needs to show the fans he has something about him other than entertaining press conferences.

 

[romufc]

Liverpool were 2 points clear with 8 games to go. 'Nonsense' they were close though.

Check your facts before making up things. They finished 9 points behind the winners... Close yeah. There were 2 teams ahead but they were 1very close.

 

[stevoc]

No credit? He finished 3rd, won the EFL cup, then won the FA cup. If literal trophies aren’t credit in the bank then what is? And don’t say league position because Ole had us 5th, 3rd then 2nd and he got the bullet 4 months later.

Progression. After a decent first few months. We got gradually worse under Ten Hag for the next 18 months.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I find his quotes really worrying, he says the performances are more important than results, but the performances are really worrying. Sure we missed chances against Spurs, but that was the worst Spurs team I have ever seen. And we still left the midfield wide open and the defense is not solid. Other recent games have been even worse, with incoherent selections and deployments and no attacking threat. Ten Hag used to come out with similar guff.

In fairness I don't think he's saying the performances have been good, but he is trying to answer a question which is just ridiculous and I guess just makes up an answer. I agree performances have been dire but no doubt this quote will get taken out of context and people will say he thinks we've been playing really well.

 

[stevoc]

No but you give him more than a few months and TBH SAF arguably inherited a better squad than Amorin has

And I haven't said Amorim shouldn't get more time. But too many United fans are wedded to this idea that if we give a manager, any manager 4-5 years he'll turn into a goat manager. Because it happened once in the 80s.

We need to move beyond it and accept every new coach might only be a stepping stone to get us where we want to be. We don't need to have the same manager long term.

 

[stevoc]

Forcing him to come mid season. If they’re expecting results straight away and didn’t accept that the players might not fit his system, and that he’d be judged before being backed, then they fecked him over.

All that remains to be seen though.

 

[Socratic]

Last year we comfortably finished in 8th place despite an injury hit season.
(Before we start this is not an EtH defence piece, he should have been P45d in May if not sooner).

In the summer we:
Replaced AWB with Mazraoui - Improvement
Replaced McT with Ugarte - Improvement
Replaced Varane with De Ligt - Not as good but almost ever present so possible net positive.
Replaced Kambwala with Yoro - Improvement
Replaced Martial with Zirkzee - Not as good but no material impact either way
And now added Dorgu - At expense of losing Rashford/Antony on loan.

Even taking some decline of Casemiro, Eriksen, Bruno arguably the squad is stronger as most of our outgoings were players who didn't contribute last year (Sancho, DvB, Greenwood, Malacia, Hannibal, Alvaro).

So Amorim has taken over a squad with strong prospects for improving on 8th place and lost 8/14 league games and if he is clinging to performances over results he is doing worse than he is on paper. The EtH cup runs hid a lot of flaws in his Utd team, Amorim scraping some wins in the EL against minnows is doing similar heavy lifting.

 

[Leftback99]

Check your facts before making up things. They finished 9 points behind the winners... Close yeah. There were 2 teams ahead but they were 1very close.

Erm... It is a fact that they were 2 points clear with 8 games to go??

 

[romufc]

Erm... It is a fact that they were 2 points clear with 8 games to go??

No they were not....

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/pre...ttbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=2023&spieltag=30

After 30 games last season Liverpool were a 1 point off and third in the PL table..

Have you got anything to show that they were 2 points clear?

 

[stepic]

No credit? He finished 3rd, won the EFL cup, then won the FA cup. If literal trophies aren’t credit in the bank then what is? And don’t say league position because Ole had us 5th, 3rd then 2nd and he got the bullet 4 months later.

The kind of rationale that meant we stupidly gave him a new contract and financed another summer of signings, only to sack him soon after.

Anyone who actually watched his team play for a year and a half could see we were going nowhere, despite that so called ‘credit in the bank’.

 

[Leftback99]

No they were not....

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/pre...ttbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=2023&spieltag=30

After 30 games last season Liverpool were a 1 point off and third in the PL table..

Have you got anything to show that they were 2 points clear?

https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=578&ha=-1 filter GW31
https://understat.com/league/EPL/2023
Filter to 5th April.

They were seen as favourites by the bookies at that point too.

Check your facts before making things up.

 

[Eugenius]

Obviously not immediately. But the important thing is getting that money on the pitch in the future.

Rashford (£15-20m per year wages)
Antony (£24-£28m per year amortisation and wages)
Casemiro (£30-35m PY amort+wages)

£75m+ a year of players who offer nothing when they should be basically our best players making a difference to results.

Add the likes of Mount and Shaw and obvious where the problem is.

It's not Amorim's job though. His title is "Head Coach". I was originally asking what is he going to do within his remit of coaching to improve us and why should we expect improvement next year. Other than we may buy better players (although we are skint and we sacked the guy who was meant to be in charge of recruitment etc).

 

[Leftback99]

It's not Amorim's job though. His title is "Head Coach". I was originally asking what is he going to do within his remit of coaching to improve us and why should we expect improvement next year. Other than we may buy better players (although we are skint and we sacked the guy who was meant to be in charge of recruitment etc).

He needs to do better than he has but managers aren't miracle workers. If they were they would get paid 10x more and no one would need to bother buying better players.

 

[The Twitcher]

Amorim has been on a hiding to nowhere for months. The players just don't show enough desire. Too slow, too lightweight for the PL. The formation does not help though.

 

[Smores]

And I haven't said Amorim shouldn't get more time. But too many United fans are wedded to this idea that if we give a manager, any manager 4-5 years he'll turn into a goat manager. Because it happened once in the 80s.

We need to move beyond it and accept every new coach might only be a stepping stone to get us where we want to be. We don't need to have the same manager long term.

If Amorim struggles next year their won't be many saying he should stay though. Aren't you arguing against a proposition you yourself made up there? I think the lack of patience in here shows we're not in the 3-4 years mindframe anymore

If he was an interim there's no chance he'd even get next season. As a permanent manager he needs next season before being judged as it's a different ask. Both can be true even if it sits oddly.

 

[romufc]

https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=578&ha=-1 filter GW31
https://understat.com/league/EPL/2023
Filter to 5th April.

They were seen as favourites by the bookies at that point too.

Check your facts before making things up.

They still finished 9 points behind the winners.. that is not close. If we finished 9 points away from relegation teams, would you say we almost got relegated? Or 9 points from top 4 being we were close to top 4?

No, you wouldn't.

A team 9 points, new manager, no new signings but they were favs to win the league...