Agree, even if we get to the promised land it looks like its going to be quite a dull place.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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Agree, even if we get to the promised land it looks like its going to be quite a dull place.
The calls to get him out, don’t understand them at all.
Give this guy a proper go, pre-season and a budget. If by this time next year, we are still floundering, then make a decision.
Seen enough on the pitch to be confident that two attacking WBs, a striker who’s mobile and can hold play up will make a massive difference. Get them in!
Give this guy a proper go, pre-season and a budget. If by this time next year, we are still floundering, then make a decision.
Seen enough on the pitch to be confident that two attacking WBs, a striker who’s mobile and can hold play up will make a massive difference. Get them in!
I also think he may have found Yoro's best position last night as the LCB.
Thought he looked great there
Thought he looked great there
Of course we want to. But what are the chances?
When has this actually become a reality, ever? All I've ever seen are teams improving at the end of a season, and bringing that energy into a new season. Ending a season in which we're losing and playing like dog shit nearly every week isn't going to deliver any long term gain. At this stage we should be showing improvement but we're heading backwards on the pitch.
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You've missed out mental attributes. We need to sign some players that are actually mentally able to put in good performancea week in week out.
People don’t have the patience mate. They’re willing to see yet another managers head roll in the stubborn belief that someone is out there that can actually get this group of players where we ‘belong’.
Considering Amorim has played this formation throughout his managerial career I’d have thought it would be very obvious to him that it can only work with high intensity, high physicality, and quick wing backs. Without them it’s just a congested mess with no threat.
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I agree, but it’s not nearly enough time to judge at this point. Let’s see if he can break down the house and build it up again in a better state.
I am an optimistic person by nature, so bear with me, I can see improvements here and there. It’s just not consistent at all at this stage.
I expect more progress next season. This season it’s better to enjoy the small victories.
Wow, some rationality! I love this and the quoted post.Should pin this to the thread.
I get that this season is somewhat of a nightmare. I don’t enjoy watching us when we seem to not got a fecking clue. But we can’t change old habits without going through pain and suffering.
In the grand scheme of things it’s not a long time to summer and this season will be over. In the meantime I will enjoy every match that we play better. Garnacho seems to be finding his form under Amorim and the new system. That’s cool. Dorgu had a very good debut. It’s not just darkness even though this season will not exactly be remembered as one of the greatest ever
I expect us to do some business in the summer and that will make a difference. Even one new player can make a difference.
Not saying everyone should just take a long nap and forgetting all about this season, but to be honest, it’s not going to happen this season and it might be better to enjoy the good and stay calm about the bad.
The sqaud is that bad. We were very lucky to finish 8th when underlying numbers had us a lot lower. Then we spent £200m in the summer on not improving the first XI. The result is predictable.
A Ugarte - Bruno midfield isn't very good at all by PL standards.
Hojlund and Zirkzee aren't PL level forwards.
Most of our CBs are pretty average.
Dalot starts for us.
I could go on
Some fans are just out of touch of reality, they'd also be calling the sack for the next manager who comes in and we don't play well for another few months
I don't know if it's just a caf thing where if we don't play well or don't get results, they skip the criticizing phase and just go all out on the sacking phase, it's truly pathetic. Literally 0 to 100 and no in between giving any patience or time
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Sure do. Or one of them oppo fans doing gods work
it's so hard to tell on here sometimes, is it an oppo fan on the wind up or are they just a childish nutter throwing toys out of the pram? Who knows!He looked proper vexed in the post match interview. Looks tired and as if he hasn't slept.
I'm all for giving Amorim time and he certainly talks a good plan/game.
However I have to be honest and say he does remind me of AVB when he signed for Chelsea. Same well spoken happy outlook to start. Pacing in the technical area, sitting in his haunches with finer across lip. And a Jose connection.
A lot of this will be the last decade of false dawn's and dashed hopes. But although it's good to be excited I think there is also room for a lot of caution.
I'm all for giving Amorim time and he certainly talks a good plan/game.
However I have to be honest and say he does remind me of AVB when he signed for Chelsea. Same well spoken happy outlook to start. Pacing in the technical area, sitting in his haunches with finer across lip. And a Jose connection.
A lot of this will be the last decade of false dawn's and dashed hopes. But although it's good to be excited I think there is also room for a lot of caution.
Like you I want to see what he does in the summer and how pre-season works. The fans are letting the media fuel their panic. We know the club needs rebuilding in a lot of ways from top to bottom. Think some would quite happily keep the players we have and just change the manager, even though some of those players didn't work out the ETH either. It is as though the fans didn't bother listening to what he said when he first came in about it will be painful.
First red flags for me with Amorim.
I can understand our poor league form. We’ve got nothing to play for and the motivation is low. But the FA Cup, at home to one of the worst sides currently, and still being outplayed is concerning. I don’t rate a lot of our players but they were completely hamstrung by his tactics first half.
Both wingbacks were completely neutered by being played inverted and having to cut inside. We are so easy to play out against as our wingbacks drop so deep, the opposition have easy options to pass to their fullbacks, then eventually finding a midfielder in acres of space after pulling our own midfielders out to press them. This has happened so many times in the last few months. I can only hope he’s playing this way due to fitness issues or to protect poor players, because if this is his system long term we are absolutely fecked.
The problem with these ‘system’ managers is their ego. Having Garnacho run at their fullback and drill crosses into the box is too simple. Everything has to be more measured/complicated so the manager can take the credit for ‘patterns of play’ and other such nonsense. Does anyone think Fergie or Mourinho gave a flying feck how the ball got into the net? I like Ruben so far but I hope to God he doesn’t stubbornly run us into the ground like the two Dutch egos LVG and ETH did.
I can understand our poor league form. We’ve got nothing to play for and the motivation is low. But the FA Cup, at home to one of the worst sides currently, and still being outplayed is concerning. I don’t rate a lot of our players but they were completely hamstrung by his tactics first half.
Both wingbacks were completely neutered by being played inverted and having to cut inside. We are so easy to play out against as our wingbacks drop so deep, the opposition have easy options to pass to their fullbacks, then eventually finding a midfielder in acres of space after pulling our own midfielders out to press them. This has happened so many times in the last few months. I can only hope he’s playing this way due to fitness issues or to protect poor players, because if this is his system long term we are absolutely fecked.
The problem with these ‘system’ managers is their ego. Having Garnacho run at their fullback and drill crosses into the box is too simple. Everything has to be more measured/complicated so the manager can take the credit for ‘patterns of play’ and other such nonsense. Does anyone think Fergie or Mourinho gave a flying feck how the ball got into the net? I like Ruben so far but I hope to God he doesn’t stubbornly run us into the ground like the two Dutch egos LVG and ETH did.
Fergie and Jose also had great strikers to work with.
Onana
de ligt Harry Maz/Yoro
Amad Cas/Collyer Ugarte Dorgu
Bruno Garno
Hoijlund
Dalot,Mainoo,Zirkzee, Erickson on bench would be decent options,
We really need to start being more positive from ko, we only seem to start playing once we go behind, was same under ETH, so seems like it's a player thing, at times last nyt we were 5yrds off the Leicester players, they're heading to the championship ffs, I doubt the manager is coaching this. Lack of options for player in possession is also very noticeable, hence back 3 pass amongst themselves before giving it to Bruno to launch a Hollywood pass. I can see Garno def improving, beating his man n putting balls across box, if only we had a Scholes running onto them. I'm not getting too downhearted yet, as we know the squad/club is a mess, roll on the summer
de ligt Harry Maz/Yoro
Amad Cas/Collyer Ugarte Dorgu
Bruno Garno
Hoijlund
Dalot,Mainoo,Zirkzee, Erickson on bench would be decent options,
We really need to start being more positive from ko, we only seem to start playing once we go behind, was same under ETH, so seems like it's a player thing, at times last nyt we were 5yrds off the Leicester players, they're heading to the championship ffs, I doubt the manager is coaching this. Lack of options for player in possession is also very noticeable, hence back 3 pass amongst themselves before giving it to Bruno to launch a Hollywood pass. I can see Garno def improving, beating his man n putting balls across box, if only we had a Scholes running onto them. I'm not getting too downhearted yet, as we know the squad/club is a mess, roll on the summer
No, we need to stop that nonsense. We can judge Amorim on how things have evolved since early November, that's a 3 months body of work. Now to me it's not enough to take any important decisions on his future or the future of the team but there is nothing that prevents anyone from judging that period and there is of course even less reason to not judge how his work evolves between now and the end of the season 7-8 months is enough to judge a manager.
That's where I have problem, there are too many terrible excuses and opinions that come from fans and the club. A manager should be judged constantly and it should not be based on whether he signed players or not, it can be a mitigating factor but it shouldn't be an argument for a blank slate or for people pretending that they don't think and "can't judge". Being patient is judging things honestly and offering the benefit of time, it's not pretending that you don't observe and draw opinions based on these observations.
Patience is not to be substituted with blind faith. I’ve noticed on this board that people place way too much emphasis on just pure time. A player looks awful at 20, but no need to worry, because still 5 whole years until he’s 25. The team looks terrible, but if you add one year, that terrible transforms.
Time alone does not generate the patience. It’s two way. We are getting played off the park, routinely, by relegation fodder. Not only are we being outplayed because ‘our players aren’t good enough’, our current misfortunes appear to be directly exacerbated by decisions from the manager. Why, other than just ‘time’, should this induce some sort of fierce optimism or positivity?
Are you guys actually aware that it’s a possibility that Amorim is a failure here? It seems that we start, in our heads, with the predetermination of him being a successful, trophy winning manager, and then work backwards from there. It’s the same with ‘young’ players, it’s the same with players because they are new. When you understand that the chances of players/managers failing are very high in general, I think you will start to appreciate the concern. Not concern for no reason or negativity sake, but concern based upon concerning performances in football matches!
For what it’s worth, I am not saying Amorim Out at this stage, but I can appreciate why anyone would not be convinced. All you need to do is watch the actual football matches (which seems to form less and less of the basis of football opinions in this day anyway, but that’s another matter).
Eddie Howe came in, mid-season, at Newcastle and transformed the club. A toxic environment for years, with several failed managers and written off players who were fighting relegation at the time. He won game after game there and has largely continued in that vein, despite a few dips. It’s not mandatory to be rubbish. Several managers come in and can improve a team. Unai Emery, Eddie Howe, Gary O’Niell. The same goes for players. Players also don’t need to be rubbish because they are young.
Ultimately, it’s been 13 years of this now. I soon adjusted from baseless optimism that was contradicted on the actual football pitch, to optimism earned by what is seen on the actual football pitch, because ultimately, we learn the hard way that the proof is in the pudding and not whether we are ‘positive’ or ‘negative’ on Redcafe. So if I see an unimpressive manager, or even an academy player who I think is shite, I will say it today. It serves nobody to pretend he’s good, ‘negative’ or not. At the end of the day, he’ll just be in our team and good or jot, we’ll have to live with the return from that. Let’s not over-complicate footy analysis. Some teams play good. They are not super human players or managers. Why can’t we be amongst those teams, instead of always being amongst the teams that don’t play good? People have become so accustomed to being not good that it seems part of the plan. Until Emery comes in and shows that actually, you can just be good instead.
Now I obviously concede that it is early days, Amorim has by no means been condemned yet, certainly not by me. My main point is that being shit and disorganised in the present is not irrelevant at all. Like, make your team less shit and disorganised quickly please, not in one year either. Just do it, your compelling words in press-conferences mean zero in the grand scheme of things. Let’s get back to calling football by what we see on the football pitch guys, it’s not that difficult. First it was DOF this, DOF that. We sacked ours in no time. West Ham sacked theirs, and now I’m hearing that like us, they are considering whether to actually recruit another one. These are all super-solutions created by podcast nerds in recent years, the reality is, whatever your job title - just do your fecking job please, and stop doing a shit one.
I was probably one of the few people here who voiced concerns on here about Amorim before he joined too, while most of course just painted a rosey narrative of it all. This isn’t point scoring, when it’s all said and done, it’s on the pitch that arguments will be won and lost, not on the net.
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We actually do have an Eriksen-type player. He was sitting on the bench for 90 minutes yesterday. Wait a second. Looking at the replay, it was actually the original and not just a copy. Still didn´t play him, when we had no control.
I was on the hype train, probably still am, but nobody will force me to watch Diogo Dalot at LWB ever again, I skipped yesterday's game and today I feel great, zero toxicity forced upon me. I do believe that he is as stubborn as Ten Hag. It's where he kinda loses me so far.
Blind faith is when you let it go on for ages, not a few months with a poor transfer window and somebody elses players, we are not Liverpool all set up for a new manager to continue the good work, we are a mess. The Glazers work is now coming to fruition and not in a good way, they have got away with robbing the club and utter neglect because of the odd trophy.
Do you know any good manager that wasn't a rookie who doesn't improve his team after 3 months? And managers always have somebody else players, if we had a "good" transfer window those players would have been someone else's player.
Totally. But he has improved us generally, no gaping holes, actual control of games and no more chaos ball. We just look bland going forwards. And given what he says after yhese games, he sees the same problems we see, this isn't a manager sticking his head in the sand, he just looks baffled that players can't seem to adjust to a different style of play.
If that continues long term then fair enough but it's still relatively early on in his tenure.
Worst wum on this board.
Agreed. It's fair enough to acknowledge he hasn't inherited a great set of circumstances but it is also a manager's responsibility to improve the players he is coaching. So far that hasn't happened with enough of them.
We lack balance and options in some areas of the pitch so I do have some degree of sympathy for him but even with that being the case, I need to see more. Truthfully, he probably needs to win one of the cups to buy himself a bit of time and good faith.
We have gaping holes right in the middle of our midfield and on both wings behind the wingbacks. We also have gaping holes in every single set pieces we concede, we haven't improved at all. The first couple of games were tighter and better but it didn't last.
Now one thing that should be said is that as far as I know Amrorim has never taken over a team midseason, in 19-20 he joined Sporting CP during the Covid break. That could explain why he is frankly useless at the minute and an actual preseason could make a big difference.
The part everyone seems to miss out when they say this is that it's a totally blind faith assumption. Who's to say it's going to be significantly better next season just because we're suffering through horrendous performances this season?
If we were looking like we were progressing towards being a better team, that's a fair assumption to make, sadly we're not really showing signs of improvement so far.
There's way too much made about pre-seasons as well. It'll help a bit, but it's ultimately quite a short period where you experiment with ideas and get the players some way toward match fitness while touring around to make money for the club.
I don't expect to come off pre-seaon a totally different prospect if we're still shite come the end of this season. Some players coming in may make a bigger difference, they'd need to be really good though.
the squad might not be good enough at this point to challenge for anything, but the first 11 should be capable of disposing the worst EPL sides from time to time.
he obviously isn't a miracle worker, but on the other hand, let's not pretend this is some rotten bunch of lazy bastards who are hoping for his sacking and won't play for him. they aren't uncoachable.
like it or not, this IS the new side everyone wanted. 6 of our regulars arrived this season, Onana and Hojlund season before while Mainoo and Diallo also became regulars in previous season.
it's not complete, but it's fresh enough not to use the "good luck playing football with this bunch" card again.
he obviously isn't a miracle worker, but on the other hand, let's not pretend this is some rotten bunch of lazy bastards who are hoping for his sacking and won't play for him. they aren't uncoachable.
like it or not, this IS the new side everyone wanted. 6 of our regulars arrived this season, Onana and Hojlund season before while Mainoo and Diallo also became regulars in previous season.
it's not complete, but it's fresh enough not to use the "good luck playing football with this bunch" card again.
Well, people can judge as much as they like. It’s a free works for most of us. If you believe my agenda is stop people from having an opinion, that’s not it. I got the same opinion as you, it’s not enough time for me to make a final judgement.
The difference between us is that I find it hysterical to make judgements at this point, and I got some arguments to why it’s probably better to wait with the doom and gloom. While you think a manager should be judged constantly, I don’t think that’s very productive and for me that would make me insane.
Im worried now. Leicester without Vardy and we are at home in one of only two competitions we can win and we still concede and look clueless going forward. Our squad is worth 5 times what theirs is and we still need luck. I fear we are in danger of over complicating things and stripping things back too much. The manager also looks like the pressure is really getting to him too. Just not a fun time being supporter these days. Shades of Ralfs season where nobody knew who was going to be sold or what was going to happen so everything was half arsed. I currently can't see him turning this around into an attractive hardworking team as things stand. I want to be wrong but any well coached mid table side would have swatted away Leicester last night or won the EL games we've played so far. It's very worrrying.
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It is obviously too early, but there are definitely things to be concerned. The whole notion he can't be judged before the next season is nonsense. We have to be better and as a team we went backwards since he joined. Our press went to shit and we are so easily bypassed in the middle of the park with opposition players making a simple one two to open space and get in dangerous areas. Most of the time, we don't look compact at all.
He has a bit more time now between the games, so there is hope we can progress a bit. And please start playing more attacking players in wingback positions from the start, especially at home. It is soul draining at times to see us play such brand of football against Leicester or Southampton. Hopefully, we will improve.
He has a bit more time now between the games, so there is hope we can progress a bit. And please start playing more attacking players in wingback positions from the start, especially at home. It is soul draining at times to see us play such brand of football against Leicester or Southampton. Hopefully, we will improve.
I've read variations of this.
But let's imagine an alternate reality in which United were doing really well after Amorim's appointment. Imagine they had climbed up the table and were now 4th or 5th.
Would people be saying this improved performance and position on the table is bad because it means United are not "going through pain and suffering" which is necessary to change old habits?
I doubt that would be the case. People would just point to the great results as evidence that the manager is doing a great job.
So you have zero opinion on how the team plays or how the team has played since November? Zero?
I posted this last night and with a more calm head I still feel the same, I want to believe in the manager but he needs to show something even a crumb of his methods working and something you can see, but at the minute I just don't see what he is trying to do, for most of the game last night we just aimlessly pass it between ourselves slowly going further backwards until we lose it,.
We also had about a billion injuries as well. Regardless Amorim is doing worse with the same squad.
Quite frankly as well even some of his wins (eg Southampton) have been completely individual talent while struggling against teams with clearly worse players.
Was similar yesterday with Garnacho too. You say Ugarte and Bruno aren't good by PL standards but then we made Harry Winks yesterday look like he was running the game at times.