Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

When has this actually become a reality, ever? All I've ever seen are teams improving at the end of a season, and bringing that energy into a new season. Ending a season in which we're losing and playing like dog shit nearly every week isn't going to deliver any long term gain. At this stage we should be showing improvement but we're heading backwards on the pitch.

Patience is not to be substituted with blind faith. I’ve noticed on this board that people place way too much emphasis on just pure time. A player looks awful at 20, but no need to worry, because still 5 whole years until he’s 25. The team looks terrible, but if you add one year, that terrible transforms.

Time alone does not generate the patience. It’s two way. We are getting played off the park, routinely, by relegation fodder. Not only are we being outplayed because ‘our players aren’t good enough’, our current misfortunes appear to be directly exacerbated by decisions from the manager. Why, other than just ‘time’, should this induce some sort of fierce optimism or positivity?

Are you guys actually aware that it’s a possibility that Amorim is a failure here? It seems that we start, in our heads, with the predetermination of him being a successful, trophy winning manager, and then work backwards from there. It’s the same with ‘young’ players, it’s the same with players because they are new. When you understand that the chances of players/managers failing are very high in general, I think you will start to appreciate the concern. Not concern for no reason or negativity sake, but concern based upon concerning performances in football matches!

For what it’s worth, I am not saying Amorim Out at this stage, but I can appreciate why anyone would not be convinced. All you need to do is watch the actual football matches (which seems to form less and less of the basis of football opinions in this day anyway, but that’s another matter).

Eddie Howe came in, mid-season, at Newcastle and transformed the club. A toxic environment for years, with several failed managers and written off players who were fighting relegation at the time. He won game after game there and has largely continued in that vein, despite a few dips. It’s not mandatory to be rubbish. Several managers come in and can improve a team. Unai Emery, Eddie Howe, Gary O’Niell. The same goes for players. Players don’t need to be rubbish because they are young.

Ultimately, it’s been 13 years of this now. I soon adjusted from baseless optimism that was contradicted on the actual football pitch, to optimism earned by what is seen on the actual football pitch. Let’s not over-complicate footy analysis. Some teams play good. They are not super human players or managers. Why can’t we be amongst those teams, instead of always being amongst the teams that don’t play good? People have become so accustomed to being not good that it seems part of the plan. Until Emery comes in and shows that actually, you can just be good instead.

Now I obviously concede that it is early days, Amorim has by no means been condemned yet, certainly not by me. My main point is that being shit and disorganised in the present is not irrelevant at all. Like, make your team less shit and disorganised quickly please, not in one year either. Just do it, your compelling words mean zero in the grand scheme of things. Let’s get back to calling football by what we see on the football pitch guys, it’s not that difficult. First it was DOF this, DOF that. We sacked ours in no time. West Ham sacked theirs, and now I’m hearing that like us, they are considering whether to actually recruit another one. These are all super-solutions created by podcast nerds in recent years, the reality is, whatever your job title - just do your fecking job please, and stop doing a shit one.
Wow! I am amazed by this comment. You have said the very truth sire, and nothing but the truth.
Patience is not to be substituted with blind faith. I’ve noticed on this board that people place way too much emphasis on just pure time. A player looks awful at 20, but no need to worry, because still 5 whole years until he’s 25. The team looks terrible, but if you add one year, that terrible transforms.

Time alone does not generate the patience. It’s two way. We are getting played off the park, routinely, by relegation fodder. Not only are we being outplayed because ‘our players aren’t good enough’, our current misfortunes appear to be directly exacerbated by decisions from the manager. Why, other than just ‘time’, should this induce some sort of fierce optimism or positivity?

Are you guys actually aware that it’s a possibility that Amorim is a failure here? It seems that we start, in our heads, with the predetermination of him being a successful, trophy winning manager, and then work backwards from there. It’s the same with ‘young’ players, it’s the same with players because they are new. When you understand that the chances of players/managers failing are very high in general, I think you will start to appreciate the concern. Not concern for no reason or negativity sake, but concern based upon concerning performances in football matches!

For what it’s worth, I am not saying Amorim Out at this stage, but I can appreciate why anyone would not be convinced. All you need to do is watch the actual football matches (which seems to form less and less of the basis of football opinions in this day anyway, but that’s another matter).

Eddie Howe came in, mid-season, at Newcastle and transformed the club. A toxic environment for years, with several failed managers and written off players who were fighting relegation at the time. He won game after game there and has largely continued in that vein, despite a few dips. It’s not mandatory to be rubbish. Several managers come in and can improve a team. Unai Emery, Eddie Howe, Gary O’Niell. The same goes for players. Players also don’t need to be rubbish because they are young.

Ultimately, it’s been 13 years of this now. I soon adjusted from baseless optimism that was contradicted on the actual football pitch, to optimism earned by what is seen on the actual football pitch, because ultimately, we learn the hard way that the proof is in the pudding and not whether we are ‘positive’ or ‘negative’ on Redcafe. So if I see an unimpressive manager, or even an academy player who I think is shite, I will say it today. It serves nobody to pretend he’s good, ‘negative’ or not. At the end of the day, he’ll just be in our team and good or jot, we’ll have to live with the return from that. Let’s not over-complicate footy analysis. Some teams play good. They are not super human players or managers. Why can’t we be amongst those teams, instead of always being amongst the teams that don’t play good? People have become so accustomed to being not good that it seems part of the plan. Until Emery comes in and shows that actually, you can just be good instead.

Now I obviously concede that it is early days, Amorim has by no means been condemned yet, certainly not by me. My main point is that being shit and disorganised in the present is not irrelevant at all. Like, make your team less shit and disorganised quickly please, not in one year either. Just do it, your compelling words in press-conferences mean zero in the grand scheme of things. Let’s get back to calling football by what we see on the football pitch guys, it’s not that difficult. First it was DOF this, DOF that. We sacked ours in no time. West Ham sacked theirs, and now I’m hearing that like us, they are considering whether to actually recruit another one. These are all super-solutions created by podcast nerds in recent years, the reality is, whatever your job title - just do your fecking job please, and stop doing a shit one.

I was probably one of the few people here who voiced concerns on here about Amorim before he joined too, while most of course just painted a rosey narrative of it all. This isn’t point scoring, when it’s all said and done, it’s on the pitch that arguments will be won and lost, not on the net.
The is the best comment I have read about Amorim's performance so far. A good manager comes into a team and makes them better, not making them worse. We stank yesterday, especially in the first half. Leicester City should not be playing Manchester United off the park at Old Trafford, it's unacceptable. Amorim's style of play, even if perfected, would not be pleasing to the eye. We should not be recycling possession between the back three and being toothless in front of the opponents goal. The formation is highly unbalanced, a good teanm would have beat us at OT yesterday. Amorim is not covering himself in glory with his stubbornness.
 
I'll keep saying it. The reason we look so poor, and while we have som bang average players we do look less than the sum of our parts, is that we get overloaded in every area of the pitch. Why does that happen? Because we couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo in front of goal for most of any game.

Every team we play is on the front foot against us because we have no goal threat. Until Garnacho came on yesterday the Leicester defence didn't have to think for a second about it being dangerous to leave space behind them. Our two strikers are not good enough, and that is not really on them, both should still be learningtheir trade at this point, not being relied on to lead the team.

Put a fast mobiel striker on the pitch, who gives the other team soemthing to worry about, and we would look a lot better.
 
He needs to knock it out of the squad to be brave and look to pass forward all the time. Can’t be going back to 1 good half displays. We need brave players.
 
I am on the side of winning football.
You can not give up on a season or are they going to refund all the money for season tickets holders for writing off a season.
I’m not impressed with Amorim at all, he talks well but looks like he is learning on the job.
This slow passing back possession football will never work here at Old Trafford.
I haven’t seen anything from him to say that this guy is a great tactician or even close.
He sets up his team in the same way so every other team can prepare for him.
We all know a midfield of Ugarte and Bruno will never work and that is still the weakness of this team.
If we can control the midfield, we will become a better team.
If he does not update his ideas, he will not be here for long as everybody knows what he is going to do.
It doesn’t take a genius to set up against us.
Also we need to start games more aggressively, let’s go for it instead of waiting for teams to score 1st.
The state of Man Utd is really really bad and frustrating.
 
Blind faith is when you let it go on for ages, not a few months with a poor transfer window and somebody elses players, we are not Liverpool all set up for a new manager to continue the good work, we are a mess. The Glazers work is now coming to fruition and not in a good way, they have got away with robbing the club and utter neglect because of the odd trophy.

No it isn’t. Blind faith is when I ask you to explain why you have that faith and you struggle to point to anything that you have seen. The blindness of the faith is based upon the lack if evidence.

As I’ve said many times in the Hojlund thread, faith in Cristiano Ronaldo becoming a world class player when he was here at 18, even though he wasn’t yet one, was not based simply upon the fact that he was a footballer who was 18 and world class players don’t usually reach there until their 20s. You could ask a fan why, and they would explain why, tangibly. They would tell you that he was fast, very two footed, has power in his shots, courage and self-belief and so much more. It wouldn’t be that ‘he hasn’t got pace, two-footedness, courage etc - but he’s only 18 so who’s to say he never will?’ If that’s the basis of your optimism then it’s blind.

So for those who are not optimistic about things under Amorim, it is because they look visibly shit and in the vast majority of games, irrespective of result, there have been zero positives to take from them. Perhaps in a few games, the result itself has been the only positive to take. But at this stage, for me to be optimistic, I’d much rather be losing games that we looked like we should have won, then win games that we clearly should have lost. With both scenarios, it is the performance that gives you belief that the results will turn, either for the better or the worse. A win like Southampton for example was nice, but it left everyone feeling that future results will be worse. The same happened during a 4-0 win vs Everton, as Amorim pointed out many times. He was very concerned by that game, and win, lose or draw - our performances have not
Improved since then. Most of the time, we’ve gotten what we deserve as a result, which is a loss.
 
Totally. But he has improved us generally, no gaping holes, actual control of games and no more chaos ball. We just look bland going forwards. And given what he says after yhese games, he sees the same problems we see, this isn't a manager sticking his head in the sand, he just looks baffled that players can't seem to adjust to a different style of play.

If that continues long term then fair enough but it's still relatively early on in his tenure.
No he hasn't. The possession is a byproduct of the system. But we are worse going forward and worse at defending.
 
The squad cannot be that crap otherwise we would have lauded EtH for finishing 8th last season. And we clearly have a better squad than Leicester yet again we struggled.

No one would be concerned if the results were bad but performances slowly improving and some "idea" was coming out. Right now I have no idea what Amorim wants to do beyond playing 343. Whether he wants defenders at WB, who to invert, who to play at #10. He didn't seem to fancy Garnacho yesterday but the only thing that worked yesterday was to give him the ball.

If you can explain Amorim ball, say what pattern of play you see, style you see then I'd be really shocked. Hard to have confidence that if he back him with tailored players he would start getting a tune out.

Who from this squad would be wanted by a top side? Rashford is probably our most marketable, desirable player and he's just struggled to get offers across Europe and ended up as Aston Villa, with us subsidising some of his wages.

The squad is in such a poor state because of Ten Hag, it's part of the reason he was hounded out along with not having any discernable style of play. As for Amorims style of play it's not hard to see what is being attempted, it's just not working at present.

The overloads of a 343 are in the outside CBs. Just before injury Martinez had started to step up to his role, progressing into midfield and using the extra space to play through the lines and start attacks. We don't currently have anyone capable of that on the right side of defence, it's why Mazraoui has looked decent in that spot, but he isn't solid enough defensively to play CB long term.

The wing backs are supposed to press high, but at present we have full backs filling those roles who you can see (and has been highlighted by ex pros in analysis) are scared to step up so high as it isn't natural too them. The alternative is to play Amad at RWB who has never played the role before this season, and allows attacks down his side more frequently.

The centre of midfield has 2 geriatrics in Casemiro and Eriksen who don't have the legs to play in a 2 man midfield. Mainoo doesn't have the defensive awareness, a poor engine to shuttle around the pitch and his passing is nothing special, Ugarte can't dictate a game with his passing and is just a firefighter. All of the above adds to needing to shift Bruno back into midfield so we have some semblance of ability on the ball in those positions. But that itself creates its own problems in that we have moved our creative output deeper on the pitch.

I already covered our attacking issues in the original post so those issues should be clear.

For those that have had enough of Amorim I'd love to know what they actually want from him. Sure he could set up like the below....

Onana
Mazraoui Yoro De Ligt Dorgu
Ugarte Mainoo
Amad Bruno Garnacho
Hojlund

But is that so different to...

Onana
Mazraoui De Ligt Yoro
Amad Ugarte Mainoo Dorgu
Bruno Garnacho
Hojlund

The only difference is Amad shifts wider and deeper, and as we've seen when Amad play RWB he's high on the pitch anyway and usually ends up in the same attacking positions be that Amad at 10 or RWB.
 
No he hasn't. The possession is a byproduct of the system. But we are worse going forward and worse at defending.
Agree. Our shape always looks more 5221 than 343 and that basically kills all attacks and makes us easy to play through.
 
I agree, but it’s not nearly enough time to judge at this point. Let’s see if he can break down the house and build it up again in a better state.

I am an optimistic person by nature, so bear with me, I can see improvements here and there. It’s just not consistent at all at this stage.

I expect more progress next season. This season it’s better to enjoy the small victories.

I think most people are on board with giving him time (obviously a few exceptions) but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be commenting on what look like obvious mistakes. He had to swap his CBs yesterday, he had to bring on Garnacho as a 10 and he had to switch Amad to RWB. All these things looked immediately apparent as potential issues as soon as we saw the line up.

As it stands, I don’t think there are too many matches where I’d mark his managerial performance as much higher than 5/10. There’s no “wow I’d never have thought of that” moments and some pretty clear errors with his starting line ups. The players also seem to be struggling to grasp exactly what he is trying to convey.

He comes across well and it’s challenging coming in halfway through a season with new plans, but it’s hard to avoid the feeling he should be doing quite a bit better so far. Fingers crossed it does start to click.
 
We also had about a billion injuries as well. Regardless Amorim is doing worse with the same squad.

Quite frankly as well even some of his wins (eg Southampton) have been completely individual talent while struggling against teams with clearly worse players.

Was similar yesterday with Garnacho too. You say Ugarte and Bruno aren't good by PL standards but then we made Harry Winks yesterday look like he was running the game at times.
That just backs up my point. Hardly a surprise that an experienced PL CM is out doing two who have proved nothing at CM in the PL.
 
Dalot was decent 2nd half

One could argue that Garnacho’s movement to the wing provided Dalot with attacking support while allowing him to invert. However, when analysing the profile of wing-backs Amorim prefers—based on his system at Sporting—isn’t it typically a balance between one operating on their natural side and the other inverting?

In his most recent Sporting setup, Amorim deployed Nuno Santos and Araujo as left wing-backs, while on the right, he used Quenda and Catamo—all left-footed players. This highlights his preference for having one wing-back who stretches the play by getting to the byline and delivering crosses, while the other inverts, cutting inside when receiving the ball.

That’s why, when Amorim first arrived, I expected him to mirror this approach but in reverse—utilising Dalot as the more defensive right wing-back and Garnacho as the left wing-back, tasked with cutting inside.

As things stand, we now have Dorgu and Amad, who I believe should take up the left and right wing-back roles, respectively. We’ve also signed Leon and continue to be linked with Quenda.

From a tactical standpoint, having these four players makes perfect sense. They provide balance with four left-footed options—two attacking full-backs and two inverted wingers—allowing Amorim to implement a similar dynamic to what he used at Sporting.
 
Who from this squad would be wanted by a top side? Rashford is probably our most marketable, desirable player and he's just struggled to get offers across Europe and ended up as Aston Villa, with us subsidising some of his wages.

The squad is in such a poor state because of Ten Hag, it's part of the reason he was hounded out along with not having any discernable style of play. As for Amorims style of play it's not hard to see what is being attempted, it's just not working at present.

The overloads of a 343 are in the outside CBs. Just before injury Martinez had started to step up to his role, progressing into midfield and using the extra space to play through the lines and start attacks. We don't currently have anyone capable of that on the right side of defence, it's why Mazraoui has looked decent in that spot, but he isn't solid enough defensively to play CB long term.

The wing backs are supposed to press high, but at present we have full backs filling those roles who you can see (and has been highlighted by ex pros in analysis) are scared to step up so high as it isn't natural too them. The alternative is to play Amad at RWB who has never played the role before this season, and allows attacks down his side more frequently.

The centre of midfield has 2 geriatrics in Casemiro and Eriksen who don't have the legs to play in a 2 man midfield. Mainoo doesn't have the defensive awareness, a poor engine to shuttle around the pitch and his passing is nothing special, Ugarte can't dictate a game with his passing and is just a firefighter. All of the above adds to needing to shift Bruno back into midfield so we have some semblance of ability on the ball in those positions. But that itself creates its own problems in that we have moved our creative output deeper on the pitch.

I already covered our attacking issues in the original post so those issues should be clear.

For those that have had enough of Amorim I'd love to know what they actually want from him. Sure he could set up like the below....

Onana
Mazraoui Yoro De Ligt Dorgu
Ugarte Mainoo
Amad Bruno Garnacho
Hojlund

But is that so different to...

Onana
Mazraoui De Ligt Yoro
Amad Ugarte Mainoo Dorgu
Bruno Garnacho
Hojlund

The only difference is Amad shifts wider and deeper, and as we've seen when Amad play RWB he's high on the pitch anyway and usually ends up in the same attacking positions be that Amad at 10 or RWB.

I think if he played that second team (save obviously Zirkzee in for Hojlund) he’d be facing a lot less criticism.
 
Would like to know why he likes playing with inverted wing backs. Wish he would get asked a question on the topic rather than getting asked about Rashford all the time.
 
I'll keep saying it. The reason we look so poor, and while we have som bang average players we do look less than the sum of our parts, is that we get overloaded in every area of the pitch. Why does that happen? Because we couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo in front of goal for most of any game.

Every team we play is on the front foot against us because we have no goal threat. Until Garnacho came on yesterday the Leicester defence didn't have to think for a second about it being dangerous to leave space behind them. Our two strikers are not good enough, and that is not really on them, both should still be learningtheir trade at this point, not being relied on to lead the team.

Put a fast mobiel striker on the pitch, who gives the other team soemthing to worry about, and we would look a lot better.

Again, what does this say about the manager? Why was Garnacho on the bench, with Kobbie Mainoo upfront instead? These are his choices, they are not mandatory, and just another example of a decision or approach that he has taken that makes it harder for us to win a football match rather than easier.

Is the answer to my question above that ‘Mainoo in attack suits his system more than Garnacho?’. If so, what the feck sort of system is that? Given that Garnacho is an actual forward and Mainoo is a midfielder. Garnacho has played last night’s opposition already this season and completely destroyed them. His qualities are What we need in our front line, not Mainoo’s.
 
The worry I've got is how he utilised Dorgu, a left footer on he right and kept Dalot on the left with the equivalent problem.

A good example of why this is a bad idea is at 76 mins where Dalot had a brilliant moment in behind the defence and could cut it back, but he decided to turn back on himself to favour his right foot. This allowed Leicester to get back into shape and we just started again. I think the ball ended up being recycled back to CB.

It makes me wonder what his plan is as he tinkers with what he has.
 
The worry I've got is how he utilised Dorgu, a left footer on he right and kept Dalot on the left with the equivalent problem.

A good example of why this is a bad idea is at 76 mins where Dalot had a brilliant moment in behind the defence and could cut it back, but he decided to turn back on himself to favour his right foot. This allowed Leicester to get back into shape and we just started again. I think the ball ended up being recycled back to CB.
I really don’t know about these decisions, it’s like he’s trying to prove something that seems ridiculous can actually work because he’s so genius at recognizing that. It’s like what Pep used to do by trying players in positions they were not familiar with, only it mostly worked for him and has not worked once for Amorim so far at United. Everyone he has tried to move to unfamiliar position struggled. He must be pretty assured of his position too as he feels emboldened to make those choices.
 
No it isn’t. Blind faith is when I ask you to explain why you have that faith and you struggle to point to anything that you have seen. The blindness of the faith is based upon the lack if evidence.

As I’ve said many times in the Hojlund thread, faith in Cristiano Ronaldo becoming a world class player when he was here at 18, even though he wasn’t yet one, was not based simply upon the fact that he was a footballer who was 18 and world class players don’t usually reach there until their 20s. You could ask a fan why, and they would explain why, tangibly. They would tell you that he was fast, very two footed, has power in his shots, courage and self-belief and so much more. It wouldn’t be that ‘he hasn’t got pace, two-footedness, courage etc - but he’s only 18 so who’s to say he never will?’ If that’s the basis of your optimism then it’s blind.

So for those who are not optimistic about things under Amorim, it is because they look visibly shit and in the vast majority of games, irrespective of result, there have been zero positives to take from them. Perhaps in a few games, the result itself has been the only positive to take. But at this stage, for me to be optimistic, I’d much rather be losing games that we looked like we should have won, then win games that we clearly should have lost. With both scenarios, it is the performance that gives you belief that the results will turn, either for the better or the worse. A win like Southampton for example was nice, but it left everyone feeling that future results will be worse. The same happened during a 4-0 win vs Everton, as Amorim pointed out many times. He was very concerned by that game, and win, lose or draw - our performances have not
Improved since then. Most of the time, we’ve gotten what we deserve as a result, which is a loss.
Then sack him then and I am sure the manager you think should be in charge will take us to glory with the Glazers in charge and no money.
 
I really don’t know about these decisions, it’s like he’s trying to prove something that seems ridiculous can actually work because he’s so genius at recognizing that. It’s like what Pep used to do by trying players in positions they were not familiar with, only it mostly worked for him and has not worked once for Amorim so far at United. Everyone he has tried to move to unfamiliar position struggled.
I read some posts about it being an inverted full back job but that makes no sense in a supposed 343 variation when the whole point of a wingback is to overlap.
 
The worry I've got is how he utilised Dorgu, a left footer on he right and kept Dalot on the left with the equivalent problem.

A good example of why this is a bad idea is at 76 mins where Dalot had a brilliant moment in behind the defence and could cut it back, but he decided to turn back on himself to favour his right foot. This allowed Leicester to get back into shape and we just started again. I think the ball ended up being recycled back to CB.
It's rubbish isn't? The issues are obvious and staring everyone in the face. Just play players in their natural position, and performances and results will improve. Amorim is trying to be too clever which will cost him his job.
 
You are all so intent on getting rid of him yet do not come up with a replacement, the names that come up will more often than not be the ones that were interviewed in the summer and discarded, so if we go for them it will just show what an absolute sh*t show our owners are, if employing Amorim when they first didn't want him hasn't shown that already. Manchester City have spooked people beyond belief. Yet most don't want to be owned by an Arab State. Well the only way this team will get back to the top is finding anybody who can build a stadium, are willing to finance to women's team properly, top finance for the men's team and the most important thing clear that god awful debt. If Amorim does not pick up by Christmas he will be fired. Then he will deserve to be. Does somebody need to tell him to not be so stubborn probably. I am not for changing formation, but playing the best options in their best positions.
 
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Again, what does this say about the manager? Why was Garnacho on the bench, with Kobbie Mainoo upfront instead?

Because Garnacho is 20 and he can't play every minute of every game, and is the only player in the squad that offers a threat behind, although the new lad may be able to add something, just not on that level.
 
Then sack him then and I am sure the manager you think should be in charge will take us to glory with the Glazers in charge and no money.

Isn't it possible to acknowledge that he hasn't been good while also giving him the benefit of time to show that he can turn things around? Also expecting little from managers and giving them time and money is exactly what the Glazers have done, what you are suggesting is the embodiment of Glazer's management.

It's a bit pathetic to suggest that if you don't have blind faith then you want to sack the manager.
 
It's rubbish isn't? The issues are obvious and staring everyone in the face. Just play players in their natural position, and performances and results will improve. Amorim is trying to be too clever which will cost him his job.
I think his system actually works a lot better if he had continuity with players.

- Stick to a settled back 3
- stick to the same wingback (Dorgu left, Amad right)
- stick to the same base (Bruno-Ugarte)
- same 10s and St (mainoo, Garna, zirkzee).

In my opinion continuity will help players build chemistry. It may not be an issue of quality or rigidity of system but more down to them not being able to familiarise with roles and each other because there's too much changing about.
 
Isn't it possible to acknowledge that he hasn't been good while also giving him the benefit of time to show that he can turn things around? Also expecting little from managers and giving them time and money is exactly what the Glazers have done, what you are suggesting is the embodiment of Glazer's management.

It's a bit pathetic to suggest that if you don't have blind faith then you want to sack the manager.
I think he has been stubborn and needs to be told that fact, there are ways of playing his formation with people in their best positions and he has done it at times, so should have stuck to it.
 
No he hasn't. The possession is a byproduct of the system. But we are worse going forward and worse at defending.

Not to my eye test. We have a keeper throwing balls into his own net which won't help stats, but last season we rode out games by skin of our teeth. I get that it's just an opinion though and you or others can and do disagree. It just feels to me that there is something there now to build on, I didn't feel like that last season.
 
I think most people are on board with giving him time (obviously a few exceptions) but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be commenting on what look like obvious mistakes. He had to swap his CBs yesterday, he had to bring on Garnacho as a 10 and he had to switch Amad to RWB. All these things looked immediately apparent as potential issues as soon as we saw the line up.

As it stands, I don’t think there are too many matches where I’d mark his managerial performance as much higher than 5/10. There’s no “wow I’d never have thought of that” moments and some pretty clear errors with his starting line ups. The players also seem to be struggling to grasp exactly what he is trying to convey.

He comes across well and it’s challenging coming in halfway through a season with new plans, but it’s hard to avoid the feeling he should be doing quite a bit better so far. Fingers crossed it does start to click.
All fair to me.
 
I really don’t know about these decisions, it’s like he’s trying to prove something that seems ridiculous can actually work because he’s so genius at recognizing that. It’s like what Pep used to do by trying players in positions they were not familiar with, only it mostly worked for him and has not worked once for Amorim so far at United. Everyone he has tried to move to unfamiliar position struggled. He must be pretty assured of his position too as he feels emboldened to make those choices.
Pep and his unnecessary tinkering in big games is exactly what this reminds me of. Trying to prove a point for the sake of it
 
I think he has been stubborn and needs to be told that fact, there are ways of playing his formation with people in their best positions and he has done it at times, so should have stuck to it.

Exactly, so when a manager doesn't do these simple things for 3 months, is it fair for people to have a negative opinion regarding these 3 months? When these 3 months are the only shared history, is it fair to not have a positive opinion about the future? And finally does any of that prevent anyone from still giving the benefit of time to the manager?
 
Who from this squad would be wanted by a top side? Rashford is probably our most marketable, desirable player and he's just struggled to get offers across Europe and ended up as Aston Villa, with us subsidising some of his wages.

The squad is in such a poor state because of Ten Hag, it's part of the reason he was hounded out along with not having any discernable style of play. As for Amorims style of play it's not hard to see what is being attempted, it's just not working at present.

The overloads of a 343 are in the outside CBs. Just before injury Martinez had started to step up to his role, progressing into midfield and using the extra space to play through the lines and start attacks. We don't currently have anyone capable of that on the right side of defence, it's why Mazraoui has looked decent in that spot, but he isn't solid enough defensively to play CB long term.

The wing backs are supposed to press high, but at present we have full backs filling those roles who you can see (and has been highlighted by ex pros in analysis) are scared to step up so high as it isn't natural too them. The alternative is to play Amad at RWB who has never played the role before this season, and allows attacks down his side more frequently.

The centre of midfield has 2 geriatrics in Casemiro and Eriksen who don't have the legs to play in a 2 man midfield. Mainoo doesn't have the defensive awareness, a poor engine to shuttle around the pitch and his passing is nothing special, Ugarte can't dictate a game with his passing and is just a firefighter. All of the above adds to needing to shift Bruno back into midfield so we have some semblance of ability on the ball in those positions. But that itself creates its own problems in that we have moved our creative output deeper on the pitch.

I already covered our attacking issues in the original post so those issues should be clear.

For those that have had enough of Amorim I'd love to know what they actually want from him. Sure he could set up like the below....

Onana
Mazraoui Yoro De Ligt Dorgu
Ugarte Mainoo
Amad Bruno Garnacho
Hojlund

But is that so different to...

Onana
Mazraoui De Ligt Yoro
Amad Ugarte Mainoo Dorgu
Bruno Garnacho
Hojlund

The only difference is Amad shifts wider and deeper, and as we've seen when Amad play RWB he's high on the pitch anyway and usually ends up in the same attacking positions be that Amad at 10 or RWB.

That post would make sense if we are languishing in 6th and talking about challenging for the league. We are 13th and talking about bridging the gap to the European places right now. There's no excuse

Yesterday we just watched us struggle to beat relegation doomed Leicester. We have a team of internationals out there. Bruno, Amad, De Ligt, Garnacho, Mazroui, Ugarte are all going to CL teams if they left us. Onana joined us as MotM in the CL final. Look what McTominay is doing in Italy and he was barely rated here.

Rashford (with all his recent baggage and wages) went to Villa who are above us in the league and in the CL knockouts, so I'm not sure what the point is there.

The squad is very meh but by no means an excuse to be solidly 13th and struggling against bottom half teams like Crystal Palace and Leicester week in week out.
 
Not to my eye test. We have a keeper throwing balls into his own net which won't help stats, but last season we rode out games by skin of our teeth. I get that it's just an opinion though and you or others can and do disagree. It just feels to me that there is something there now to build on, I didn't feel like that last season.
Thats some eye test.
 
Nothing against 3 at the back and wing backs, but the rest is flawed. Yes if you cant trap a bag of cement or/and pass to a nearest person with the same shade of colour you´re wearing then there is no formation to make you look a footballer.

But for a love of god, reshape that nonsence. Simple switch from 3-4-2-1 to 3-5-2. Two midfielders cant take it in turns to support attack as they both cover sides vacated by wingbacks. These are also isolated offensively - even when there is a nice diagonal switch they have feck all to work with. Either a WB has to dribble through two defenders or check back and rather pass to a CB than an Ugarte already surronded in the middle.

And those two "tens" behind the striker, thats utter bollox. Not quite forwards, not midfielders. They´re confused both ways with no clue what to do. And that would take a year to drill the team as a pressing unit for the 2 central mids to get any help from them.

So the only move for your "10" to actually get on the ball is possibly the worst move in football. From central postition running into only free space - behing oppo fullback, with a defender (most likely strong centreback) breathing down your neck ready to kick you out of the pitch. There´s nothing positive you can do. No turn forward to continue. There is only a check back if you luckily escape a challenge and pass back down the line.

And I dont think it takes 50 proper training sessions to cut this out. Simply, dont make that stupid run. If you did, please guys on the ball, dont pass to a forward running to a sideline with a defender on their back.

Simple switch to 3-5-2. One dedicated holder in front of a back three, two more attacking mids covering each side and two central "strickers." I put it in brackets ´cause Ruben can vary there. Even Hojlund would benefit with someone like Amad or Bruno constantly nearby.
 
People don’t have the patience mate. They’re willing to see yet another managers head roll in the stubborn belief that someone is out there that can actually get this group of players where we ‘belong’.

A good starting point would be consistently beating teams like Palace and Wolves while ensuring we’re not outplayed by sides like Southampton and Leicester at home. Establishing control in these matches is essential for building momentum and setting a higher standard. Only then can we start focusing on getting back to where we belong. But seriously, that shouldn’t be too much to ask, should it?
 
Right now we look worse than on the worst day under Van Gaal. Same three at the back system with useless possession, slow build-up & no attacking threat. On top of that, Hojlund being completely useless and no pace in the attack to get behind the defense is completely hampering us. We should have gotten another attacking player with pace when he decided to let Rashford go. Garnacho is the only one of our attackers with decent pace and he cannot start on the bench again. With Mainoo and Amad we are a bit one paced in attack and very easy to defend against. Also, Zirkzee, although not a huge upgrade, needs to start games as he isn't completely inept at holding the ball. Starting with Hojlund is starting with 10 men.

Talking a good talk and being charismatic is a good start but ultimately it is the performances and results that matter. He has been here long enough for the team to start showing improvements. He needs time but before being trusted with enough of it, and also a lot of money, there should be visible signs of improvement in our play. We should be able to play cohesive football with the squad we have currently available The ask is a cohesive unit, not a PL title win. I don't think it's too outrageous to wish for that.
 
Big question for me is what to do in May if our play does not improve? Sack him or give him more time? The lack of progress is a huge concern for me. Palace and yesterday were two terrible performances. I can't see what he is trying to do.
 
Big question for me is what to do in May if our play does not improve? Sack him or give him more time? The lack of progress is a huge concern for me. Palace and yesterday were two terrible performances. I can't see what he is trying to do.
Backing him without any signs of significant improvement until the end of the season would be insanity
 
Big question for me is what to do in May if our play does not improve? Sack him or give him more time? The lack of progress is a huge concern for me. Palace and yesterday were two terrible performances. I can't see what he is trying to do.
It'll be a very very tough decision. But I can't see him surviving if the performances do not improve dramatically. I doubt he'd be able to win the FA cup or Europa to survive even with these performances given how bad we are doing anything. We'd out of both competitions the moment we meet a half decent team.
 
Big question for me is what to do in May if our play does not improve? Sack him or give him more time? The lack of progress is a huge concern for me. Palace and yesterday were two terrible performances. I can't see what he is trying to do.
If they do get rid, they better have a plan in place, not be scrabbling around for a manager. So would they go crawling back to one of the managers they rejected. The biggest issue they have is if they go for someone doing a great job at their present club, what can they offer him transfer wise and wages? More money would go on paying off Amorim and all his coaches, then what money will be left. This Manchester United is not that attractive a proposition at the moment, but how can we change that?
 
It'll be a very very tough decision. But I can't see him surviving if the performances do not improve dramatically. I doubt he'd be able to win the FA cup or Europa to survive even with these performances given how bad we are doing anything. We'd out of both competitions the moment we meet a half decent team.
There again aren't Arsenal a half decent side?