Dont think the issue is where Dorgu can play, its that all other options are utter shite on the left, so would seem sensible to play Dorgu left and the other wingback where they are more comfortable.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
The last coach that was sacked did.
I have completely lost faith in this guy. It could be consistent kneejerk or something but I am done with him just I was done witj ETH by the half of his 2nd season.
Patiently waiting for the inevitable chopping now
Patiently waiting for the inevitable chopping now
You really don' think Arsenal will do it with their eyes closed? Didn't they offer something similar for a 29 year old Watkins? Liverpool would pay it too, especially if they sell Nunez but even without.
In fact it's a very reasonable price for a 26 year old striker in his peak and killing it domestically, in Europe and for his national team for the 3rd year in a row now. One who has experienced playing in English Football too.
There are fans who went OT and have testified that Amorim is the one who keeps telling the players play slower and "relax".
Fans who have had seats just behind the bench too. Make of that what you will
Good post. I completely agree.
I do have concerns about if he can deliver as he isn’t going to get bundles of new players in his style or to fit his formation because of finances. So he’s going to have to get a tune out of some of this lot. Maybe if they’re around more athleticism, which I assume will be a trait of the players we will target, then things will improve. But that’s not a guarantee of course.
I hope it works out and I think he gets it, he talks a good game and says the right things generally. But having sat in the ground through his home games so far I am increasingly dubious about him.
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He is talented, determined, hard working, charismatic and well spoken.
The team looks more compact, wins more second balls, we pass in good triangles, wingers do cut back crosses much more.
It's slowly coming together.
Players look a bit nervous and slow, but they will improve.
Good days ahead with a great coach in charge!
The team looks more compact, wins more second balls, we pass in good triangles, wingers do cut back crosses much more.
It's slowly coming together.
Players look a bit nervous and slow, but they will improve.
Good days ahead with a great coach in charge!
Probably the only honest manager in the league. Said Maguires goal shouldn’t have counted and was offside.
As one of those fans, he isn’t telling them to play slower. That message comes out when they smash a ball 60 yards up field to a striker who can’t do anything with it.
I think he wants them to play quickly through the lines from a solid platform so we don’t get butchered in a basketball match. Unfortunately our back line can’t pass in any sort of progressive manner, so they take too many touches, the opposition get completely comfortable sat in, and begin to press us.
We drop back because we can’t see passing options, then twat it forward and he tells them to calm down and play. From the stands you can see pretty clearly what we’re trying to do in and out of possession. Even with defensive minded wing backs, where we’re in possession it should be attacking. But it isn’t, because the players are struggling to do it because they’re incapable/don’t want to/lacking confidence/just shit (delete as applicable)
That's a bit fast, can you elaborate on what are your deal(faith) breakers?
Oh I agree with that, but needs must at this point. I'm not even saying Amorim was right to do what he did but I think he wanted Dorgu to free up Amad to do less defensive work and Dalot plays better when an actual decent fullback like Maz is in his ear coaching him through the game. Doesn't stop him from doing braindead stuff though.
Its just ETH-PTSD.
Five years ago, we would not have lost faith in a new manager within 2-3 months. We would have been patient.
But our emotions are frayed after so many false peaks/hopes.
Best, we just don't invest very much in what's left of this season. And just look forward to next season, assuming the big re-build happens over the summer.
Just play Dorgu and Amad as wing backs so we have 5 players capable of attacking when we need to.
No need to "suffer" just do it FFS. So negative keeping a defensive fullback playing when it's such a big issue.
No need to "suffer" just do it FFS. So negative keeping a defensive fullback playing when it's such a big issue.
I mean, that's an extreme and emotional view point to be honest. I'm not saying Amorim will be a success but writing someone off at this point is pretty silly, especially because you don't like a tactic or whatever the justification is. I'm not sure what the expectation is from people anymore, I just know that we've been on this path to shitness ever since Ten Hag got to spend a billion quid and now there isn't an overnight fix. It's going to be tough for the rest of the season but Amorim seems to know what he wants and he knows how to change a game, which is something none of our previous managers have been capable of.
He also said last night that this isn't what he wants, and its about surviving until he is able to implement his ideas. The second half yesterday was more inline with the way he wants to play, but ultimately training and performances pick the teams. You can't reward people who don't perform, otherwise we're just right back in the same position as Ten Hag with Rashford etc.
I mean, I don't have faith in him because I'm really not familiar with him. But because I'm not familiar with him 2-3 months isn't enough for me to have a strong opinion. I'm sure it's different for others who know more about him.
Gotta say I absolutely love some reactions on here.
Every team we play is "the worst team in the league"!
Every team that strings more than 3 passes together is "smashing us"!
When we lose is deseved, when we win it's lucky!
Truly an elite mindset, respect!
Every team we play is "the worst team in the league"!
Every team that strings more than 3 passes together is "smashing us"!
When we lose is deseved, when we win it's lucky!
Truly an elite mindset, respect!
The system he wants to play requires such a huge change in personnel, that let's be honest, we can't afford, if this doesn't work out, it'll end up being the biggest mistake and I'm honestly seeing nothing from him that suggests he can turn this around.
We cry out for a left back, we buy one, and he plays off the right. I thought he was going to be the one but THIS job, might just be a step too much for him.
We cry out for a left back, we buy one, and he plays off the right. I thought he was going to be the one but THIS job, might just be a step too much for him.
I kid you not, I opened the match day thread yesterday to see that Dorgu was starting on the right and you'd have thought we had started 4-0 down. The amount of moaning about literally everything was unreal, as if we'd just signed Roberto Carlos and put him in net for a laugh. I think some people need some time off, the current state of this United squad is too much for some to comprehend.
People want a rebuild, but they don't want a rebuild.
They got very comfortable with United lurking around top 6 and sometimes looking like something might happen.
They want to go back to the safety of doing the same old thing.
Players are used to reactive playing, not proactive. Controling a game and using a defined style is alien concept to them.
It's not going to happen overnight.
As with anything there is always a level of responsibility that the players have to take, however, in your last sentence you put all the blame on the players and none on the manager.
Having the player's positions so defensive (at times 5 defenders marking 2/3 players or 3 CBs marking 1 striker) naturally means there will be less forward options to pass to. In a team that already struggled to score, you've then decided to make it even harder for them to create chances by neutering them even more. The fact we brought in a new attacking wingback and he also ended up just passing the ball back the majority of the time is also an indication its an issue with the tactics, not just the players.
It may be that Amorim's tactics work out in the long run, its also equally as possible that they don't work in the premier league. At the moment we are playing the worst football I've ever seen. Its boring, uninspiring, 0 risk. That aspect is coming from the manager. Our players are bad, but they are not this bad.
You mean like Ten Hag's did? So people keep saying it's going to be a massive mistake but what people aren't realising is that this system that is intended to be the salve to the high press styles of Pep-esque systems is here to stay. Look at Inter and look where they got in the last couple of years, look at Sporting, both have undone the high press, look at us against the better sides in the league who play this way.
If we do fire Amorim at any point, you will see us linked with similar managers like Inzaghi. We're not all of a sudden going to change to a manager that has a totally different system after recruiting a squad that is built to dismantle the high intensity systems that have dominated football for the last 10 years or more.
Playing Dalot on the left each week is a form of torture.
The formation is being given way too much importance by some. We’ve seen good and bad performances with this system, and it’s so much more about intensity and concentration that whatever number combination we use.
What is concerning is how Amorim chooses to fill the formation with the players he has available. I can’t get over the RWB/LWB decision yesterday. I’m concerned he keeps trying weird stuff.
For a game like yesterday, I’d much rather see:
And one small point in Amorims defense: Our midfield options are such a mess. We desperately need an Eriksen type to control and allow us to combine through the first press. We did it once with Bruno and Ugarte yesterday and created a big chance. The poor midfield leads to so many other problems.
What is concerning is how Amorim chooses to fill the formation with the players he has available. I can’t get over the RWB/LWB decision yesterday. I’m concerned he keeps trying weird stuff.
For a game like yesterday, I’d much rather see:
Amad - Ugarte - Bruno - Dorgu
Mainoo - Garnacho
Striker
This gives us enough attacking talent in the pitch to create chances.Mainoo - Garnacho
Striker
And one small point in Amorims defense: Our midfield options are such a mess. We desperately need an Eriksen type to control and allow us to combine through the first press. We did it once with Bruno and Ugarte yesterday and created a big chance. The poor midfield leads to so many other problems.
I know mate! It's brutal at times, but as United fans we have to accept the current situation, and all things considered he's at least trying unlike some who have downed tools in the past and not been arsed about the club or the fans etc. I get that he's not good enough but the flak he's getting is crossing over into bullying territory at the moment, all because we signed a LWB and started him on the right...
We aren't all of a sudden going to turn into this amazing football team because Dorgu starts LWB, the squad is too unbalanced. I'd prefer not to see Dalot in the starting lineup but with Martinez out for the season. he's going to start more than he should. People need to come to terms with that and stop moaning about it like it's just cost us the league title.
It's getting harder to imagine a scenario where Amorim succeeds at United. The argument seems to be that he has a particular system that is so complicated it requires playing Mainoo in Bruno's position, Bruno in Mainoo's position, left-footed defenders playing on the right and vice-versa, and we're going to lose unprecedented numbers of Premier League games while the players get used to all this.
Maybe the system's just not very good? Maybe Amorim's success at Sporting wasn't down to the system. Perhaps it was down to having a good squad of players that he motivated well. It could be that the same Sporting squad would have won the league if Amorim had been forced to play 4-4-2.
My opinion is that this United squad is good enough to compete for top four, and should be finishing somewhere between third and sixth. A team of Onana; Mazraoui, Yoro, De Ligt, Dalot; Ugarte, Mainoo; Amad, Bruno, Garnacho; Hojlund should be good enough to be competitive against most PL sides. We should be playing that kind of team in a system that suits them and making the best of it while trying to improve the squad incrementally in every window. That's basically what Ferguson did, along with kicking out the bad apples.
Amorim is charismatic and a great communicator, but so is Mourinho, and nobody would suggest he's the man to take United forward. Obviously Amorim deserves a full season to make an impact but if the team is still this chaotic come Christmas I'd start looking for a replacement.
Maybe the system's just not very good? Maybe Amorim's success at Sporting wasn't down to the system. Perhaps it was down to having a good squad of players that he motivated well. It could be that the same Sporting squad would have won the league if Amorim had been forced to play 4-4-2.
My opinion is that this United squad is good enough to compete for top four, and should be finishing somewhere between third and sixth. A team of Onana; Mazraoui, Yoro, De Ligt, Dalot; Ugarte, Mainoo; Amad, Bruno, Garnacho; Hojlund should be good enough to be competitive against most PL sides. We should be playing that kind of team in a system that suits them and making the best of it while trying to improve the squad incrementally in every window. That's basically what Ferguson did, along with kicking out the bad apples.
Amorim is charismatic and a great communicator, but so is Mourinho, and nobody would suggest he's the man to take United forward. Obviously Amorim deserves a full season to make an impact but if the team is still this chaotic come Christmas I'd start looking for a replacement.
I have to say, I'm growing kind of tired of watching him trying to be clever.
Just put the players in their most appropriate positions, lad.
Just put the players in their most appropriate positions, lad.
I find that very hard to believe having watched his sporting side attack with dynamic pace, always looking forwards and committing players into attacking areas
You’re wrong. Just dead wrong.
Dear God
Give it a rest about the fecking formation ffs
Really hope he swaps Dalot and Dorgu around.
Even still, there’s not enough creativity and not enough players on the pitch capable of doing something in the final third which is not helping.
We’ve lost Bruno’s creativity as he’s playing deeper, have no width because of the wing backs and our striking options are crap. No wonder it’s such a struggle.
Even still, there’s not enough creativity and not enough players on the pitch capable of doing something in the final third which is not helping.
We’ve lost Bruno’s creativity as he’s playing deeper, have no width because of the wing backs and our striking options are crap. No wonder it’s such a struggle.
I just think that by the time we get this in place (it's not going to be done in one summer transfer window and one pre-season) other teams will have adapted as well. Other teams don't stand still. We're trying to counter the teams of today when we are so far behind them, that they will have evolved again and we'll still be behind. We look so defensive and not good at it at all. Teams that play attacking football (like we should be) we continue to rip us apart. I personally would just rather us be on the attacking foot rather than trying to counter other teams.
I have no comment on Ten Hag's reign as I wasn't a fan of that or some of those signings (but some of that on upper management at the time which has put us in today's mess). I just look back over the managers we've tried and the football we are playing right now, is without a doubt (in my mind), some of the worst I've seen and it's not getting better. We are losing so many games and the games that we do win, generally come down to an individual performance or dare I say it, luck, because we certainly aren't showing signs that we deserve to win many of the games I watch.
I'm just glad we have so many experts in this thread who could easily set united up to play amazing attacking and winning football.
Who knew it was so easy for unqualified Internet people to see what a highly qualified and highly rated young coach is doing wrong. I'm amazed they have time to post on here when surely their incredible football coaching skills should see them inundated with job offers in professional football.
Who knew it was so easy for unqualified Internet people to see what a highly qualified and highly rated young coach is doing wrong. I'm amazed they have time to post on here when surely their incredible football coaching skills should see them inundated with job offers in professional football.
I make of it that as these players are painfully shit on the ball and their fitness and athleticism is just as crap so pass and move is out of the window, he's told them to slow it down as he doesn't trust them to hold possession in quick transitions to attack.
And guess what, he's completely right as out of 578 passes last night, we completed 486 with a passing completion of 84%.
He still has to show some sort of progress this season even if we still finish in a bad league position. Otherwise we should be careful about throwing pots of money ar players specific to his system
You have to wait at least until next winter before declaring him done or useless. That was always the risk of bringing him in mid season, by the time summer arrives, he would possibly lose credibility from the fans and players. Still, we need to give him a fair chance, it is what it is now.
Some of you guys reminds me of the animations of Bruno crying 
I actually don't believe the "complete overhaul" thing anymore.
We need a good striker for sure and another creative midfielder. But nothing more than 2-3 players in the summer.
The problem that coaches and players have been talking about for 10 years is the CULTURE of the club.
Manchester United lost the identity and nobody knows what's expected and where the club is going.
First we got Moyes, who failed to add any freshness to an aging squad, filled with average players and carried by 5-6 world class players who were no longer in their prime.
He couldn't even find a way to utilise his precious Fellaini. The job confused him.
Then we got LVG - the only coach who actually created and held on to his own style. He knew how he wanted his team to play and he insisted on it. We did a massive blunder with Di Maria signing. And also Depay was a bit of a failure. But he definitely set up the foundation of something sustainable - promoting young academy players all the time, implementing a defined style. He was booted because it wasn't exciting enough. Personally I think it was a mistake. Or at least fire him and get someone who has similar style and can improve on it.
Then we get Jose, who throws everything LVG was building for 2 years in the trash. Our culture went to "toxic". Jose does the same thing everywhere he goes - he needs a world class striker (Zlatan, Lukaku?!) as a target man, and a great playmaker (Pogba?!). Then the team shithouses it's way to success. It's constant fight in every game, constant moaning. Players get thrown under the bus. Again a massive transfer blunder with Alexis.
Then we get Ole, who sets us up to be "the best counterattacking team in the world". We build a team that sits back and uses Bruno's ability to play long through balls to pacy players and Pogba's ability to pop with a goal outside the box. Massive transfer blunder once again - gotta say it's Ronaldo. And it's just because we already had Cavani, who had found his legs and place in the team. Ole was literally Arteta - sure, the team looks like performing sometimes, but never looks like winning anything.
After Ole, ETH comes in. The word "rebuild" starts to pop. People expect "his style" to be shown. He tries to play the ball out from the back with short passes and gets beaten badly in his first two games. So he immediately gives up and goes to modified Ole ball - the thing players are comfortable with and have been for years.
Then he goes for double number 10 and solo DM - a setup that Pep was trying in the beginning and he actually abandoned after I think Monaco ran freely through City in the CL. (at that time there was doubt if Pep can even win anything with City).
It's completely chaotic and the team thrives when games go batshit crazy with the ball flying around and people clashing into eachother, 1/4 final against Liverpool style.
Now, read everything above carefully. This is what Ruben Amorim inherited. A complete and utter mess, no culture, no style whatsoever. So now he has to create a culture, create a style and insist on his phylosophy.
And he has been doing just that. Players are slowly responding and I'm absolutely convinced that in september we'll be watching a completely new and exciting Manchester United.
A "short fix" is not sustainable. No point to fight to get 4-5 places higher in the league, if it requires to go back to the same old thing that clearly wasn't working.
You HAVE TO look at the bigger picture. You HAVE TO understand that we are getting set up for a future where we dominate games, have defined style and culture.
Be patient, enjoy the positive signs in our players and general play.
The seeds are being sown, the harvest will come soon enough!
We need a good striker for sure and another creative midfielder. But nothing more than 2-3 players in the summer.
The problem that coaches and players have been talking about for 10 years is the CULTURE of the club.
Manchester United lost the identity and nobody knows what's expected and where the club is going.
First we got Moyes, who failed to add any freshness to an aging squad, filled with average players and carried by 5-6 world class players who were no longer in their prime.
He couldn't even find a way to utilise his precious Fellaini. The job confused him.
Then we got LVG - the only coach who actually created and held on to his own style. He knew how he wanted his team to play and he insisted on it. We did a massive blunder with Di Maria signing. And also Depay was a bit of a failure. But he definitely set up the foundation of something sustainable - promoting young academy players all the time, implementing a defined style. He was booted because it wasn't exciting enough. Personally I think it was a mistake. Or at least fire him and get someone who has similar style and can improve on it.
Then we get Jose, who throws everything LVG was building for 2 years in the trash. Our culture went to "toxic". Jose does the same thing everywhere he goes - he needs a world class striker (Zlatan, Lukaku?!) as a target man, and a great playmaker (Pogba?!). Then the team shithouses it's way to success. It's constant fight in every game, constant moaning. Players get thrown under the bus. Again a massive transfer blunder with Alexis.
Then we get Ole, who sets us up to be "the best counterattacking team in the world". We build a team that sits back and uses Bruno's ability to play long through balls to pacy players and Pogba's ability to pop with a goal outside the box. Massive transfer blunder once again - gotta say it's Ronaldo. And it's just because we already had Cavani, who had found his legs and place in the team. Ole was literally Arteta - sure, the team looks like performing sometimes, but never looks like winning anything.
After Ole, ETH comes in. The word "rebuild" starts to pop. People expect "his style" to be shown. He tries to play the ball out from the back with short passes and gets beaten badly in his first two games. So he immediately gives up and goes to modified Ole ball - the thing players are comfortable with and have been for years.
Then he goes for double number 10 and solo DM - a setup that Pep was trying in the beginning and he actually abandoned after I think Monaco ran freely through City in the CL. (at that time there was doubt if Pep can even win anything with City).
It's completely chaotic and the team thrives when games go batshit crazy with the ball flying around and people clashing into eachother, 1/4 final against Liverpool style.
Now, read everything above carefully. This is what Ruben Amorim inherited. A complete and utter mess, no culture, no style whatsoever. So now he has to create a culture, create a style and insist on his phylosophy.
And he has been doing just that. Players are slowly responding and I'm absolutely convinced that in september we'll be watching a completely new and exciting Manchester United.
A "short fix" is not sustainable. No point to fight to get 4-5 places higher in the league, if it requires to go back to the same old thing that clearly wasn't working.
You HAVE TO look at the bigger picture. You HAVE TO understand that we are getting set up for a future where we dominate games, have defined style and culture.
Be patient, enjoy the positive signs in our players and general play.
The seeds are being sown, the harvest will come soon enough!
I am a staunch supporter of Amorim and really hope he succeeds, but that was a tough watch last night.
Worryingly, I feel the longer this goes on, the harder it will be to get the players to believe in his methods, and given the financial issues, we can’t spend £250m on new players in the summer.
Aside from the dire showing on the pitch, Amorim himself is starting to look angry and frustrated, almost confused, like everything he’s trying isn’t working at all.
I know this is a bit of an unwelcome comparison, but even someone like Moyes has walked into a mess of a dressing room and made a huge impact at Everton. That XI we had out last night is capable of far more.
Also, I have pretty much no faith in the club to back him properly, seems like that’s a shambles as well.
Things are not good, that’s for sure. I can see a scenario now where Amorim starts sinking without trace, but I really hope not.
Worryingly, I feel the longer this goes on, the harder it will be to get the players to believe in his methods, and given the financial issues, we can’t spend £250m on new players in the summer.
Aside from the dire showing on the pitch, Amorim himself is starting to look angry and frustrated, almost confused, like everything he’s trying isn’t working at all.
I know this is a bit of an unwelcome comparison, but even someone like Moyes has walked into a mess of a dressing room and made a huge impact at Everton. That XI we had out last night is capable of far more.
Also, I have pretty much no faith in the club to back him properly, seems like that’s a shambles as well.
Things are not good, that’s for sure. I can see a scenario now where Amorim starts sinking without trace, but I really hope not.
I don't really feel like continuing this debate as a lot of the stuff both you and I have to say on the matter is conjecture. We both have no idea if this is or is not going to bear fruit in a season or two but all I do know is that results set the mood for the outlook on how things will go. We don't have the players to play attacking football or win games consistently, we saw that under Ten Hag, we're seeing it now, we'll see under Big Sam if we sack Amorim today and hit panic mode, then you'll be in here saying the same things and bemoaning the death of a football club.
We will see how this all unfolds, personally, I see enough to think things will improve drastically next season. If they don't, I'll deal with it then instead of being involved in this race to call things the worst they've ever been first.