Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Remember the geese]

You say this but we're on track to run it very close

We aren't.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

The "relegation battle" argument might have merit in a "normal" year, but for these past two seasons, the promoted sides have been so incredibly shit that the bar for safety is as low as it can possibly be, so there's no real concern there.

 

[tomaldinho1]

We aren't.

Current ppg puts us at 44/45 points at end of season, that in my mind is running it close.

 

[Roane]

Those who keep saying how he has to coach players more, take a good look at the schedule of Manchester united. During the season and off* season, maybe ~5 years ago there was seriously time to coach during season seriously - no there isn't really, barely any even off season because due international football.

Coaching as you want to, is very time limited now.

I agree with the sentiment and have said this myself. Especially with regards to integrating younger players. I mean how can you when you haven't time with the first team?

However, and this is a frustration, you can't have it both ways.

What I mean is you can't say I have no time with these players AND consistently say my way or the high way. With a totally different style/approach.


Take Garnacho as an example, and it is just an example. As a young winger he was flying prior to new management. Suddenly he is out and not performing in a new position. So we look at selling him for someone who can (yes I know there were other issues too but stick with me).

How can Nacho be expected to play in a new position without training? Surely better initially to utilize him in a position he is good at and then slowly get him to adapt as the training can be done?

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Current ppg puts us at 44/45 points at end of season, that in my mind is running it close.

40 points for safety used to be the benchmark back in the ~2000s; over the last 10-15 seasons it's been more like 35. More recently, with the growing gap between the PL and the Championship resulting in very poor promoted sides, 30 should be more than enough. For reference, 18th place Luton Town went down with 26(!!) points last season.

So even at 44 we'll have plenty of cushion below us.

 

[tomaldinho1]

40 points for safety used to be the benchmark back in the ~2000s; over the last 10-15 seasons it's been more like 35. More recently, with the growing gap between the PL and the Championship resulting in very poor promoted sides, 30 should be more than enough. For reference, 18th place Luton Town went down with 26(!!) points last season.

So even at 44 we'll have plenty of cushion below us.

We are Back!

This is true though, the 3 new teams seem way off the level needed to survive so hopefully we ride this one out.

 

[Remember the geese]

Current ppg puts us at 44/45 points at end of season, that in my mind is running it close.

Not when none of the current bottom three are hitting 30 points.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

No, this was the excuse for not judging Ten Hag, even after he had spent a billion quid. You would have a point if this set of players were good and won things, but seeing as we're not Madrid, there is some heavy work to be done recruitment wise before we see any vast improvement.

The exact same excuse our past managers used!

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Do they? Should Iroala have been sacked? Should Arteta have been sacked? Ange right now could be sacked, but they’re going to back him still. Glasner could have been sacked for their start of season. Do ALL clubs do what you say?

Arteta football was much better even in the early years when they were not consistent.

The rest of the manager you mentioned have much lower budget than us and play better football too.

And did I say Amorim should be sacked now? "By end of the season"! (If no improvement)!

 

[Champ]

Those who keep saying how he has to coach players more, take a good look at the schedule of Manchester united. During the season and off* season, maybe ~5 years ago there was seriously time to coach during season seriously - no there isn't really, barely any even off season because due international football.

Coaching as you want to, is very time limited now.

So maybe not introduce a new system straight away when there isn't time to practice it....?? Just a thought?

Maybe introducing it little by little is the way to go, that way the players might get a few results, better confidence and learn the new system. Before it's fully been implemented?

Again, it's just a thought, but makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Remember the geese]

So maybe not introduce a new system straight away when there isn't time to practice it....?? Just a thought?

Maybe introducing it little by little is the way to go, that way the players might get a few results, better confidence and learn the new system. Before it's fully been implemented?

Again, it's just a thought, but makes perfect sense to me.

Makes zero sense to me. Pissing around with something else for 6 or 7 months is just valuable time wasted. He's gone about things precisely the right way. We are building for the future, not sticking a plaster over something for now, only to have to start from scratch in July.

 

[Champ]

Makes zero sense to me. Pissing around with something else for 6 or 7 months is just valuable time wasted. He's gone about things precisely the right way. We are building for the future, not sticking a plaster over something for now, only to have to start from scratch in July.

Majority of people saying this are also saying we need 6/7 new players in the starting line up, which is in essence starting again is it not?

It's not pissing around, it's called getting results and finding a win games, which is the aim of competitive football. Just because it's not using a coaches preferred system , doesn't mean it doesn't count?!

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Garnacho isn't really up for sale, me thinks. He could be sold, if someone's willing to pay over the odds for him because we need money to get players in. A worst-case scenario, but still one that can become a reality.

Best-case scenario, someone comes up with 30-40 million for Rashford and this pays a portion of the fee for Gyokeres. We can also work with agents (we better start to at some point) to find a club in Italy, Spain or Germany who will get either Hojlund or Zirkzee off our hands. We use that money to sign a #10 or a midfielder.

People should brace themselves because i believe INEOS are playing the long game here. I don't believe it's a coincidence that the first thing Amorim did was to warn the fans that there will be no immediate raising of the team's floor level. Not even in the form of the "new manager bounce". If you have come to the conclusion that what you currently have is beyond repair, you won't put too much emphasis on the new manager's ability to do some good patchwork.

Have a look at the profiles of the team that, hopefully, will emerge out of this chaos: Mainoo (19 yrs), Amad (22 yrs), De Ligt (25 yrs), Yoro (19 yrs), Dorgu (20 yrs), Garnacho (20 yrs), Hojlund/Zirkzee (22/23 yrs). There are some more experienced players to keep a proper balance, but the future main cast (if that's what they will be) will need a lot of maturing. And most of it will be happening on the pitch.

Don't get mad, i'm not suggesting that Amorim should get a carte blanche. But his frankness implies that there might be a plan in place. Plus, he's the one who works with the players every day. Who would have guessed, back in 19/20, that three teenagers (Saka, Martinelli, Saliba, the latter on loan) would be the start of a new Arsenal side. Next season, two more young players arrived in Gabriel and Partey. After that, it was Odegaard. By 22/23, Martinelli/Saka/Odegaard had 15 goals each.

Amorim or no Amorim, when you decide to draw a line and start afresh, there's a lot of pain in the process.

 

[JoseM4]

The "relegation battle" argument might have merit in a "normal" year, but for these past two seasons, the promoted sides have been so incredibly shit that the bar for safety is as low as it can possibly be, so there's no real concern there.

I totally agree. There’s zero chance we will get relegated.

But to the people who say the current year is a write-off, they need to understand the lower we finish in the table the harder it’ll be to bring in new transfers (without massively overpaying).

 

[Hughie77]

The trouble is, do you really think that a 4 week training regime in pre-season is suddenly enough to turn this team into a 3-4-3 machine? I don't as the majority of our players are thick.

Only way this squad is improved is that they allow Amorin the money and the players he needs in the Summer, and it starts with strikers.
Some players that have gone in Jan need to be gone permanently by the summer? There are a few more as well that need to be moved on.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I totally agree. There’s zero chance we will get relegated.

But to the people who say the current year is a write-off, they need to understand the lower we finish in the table the harder it’ll be to bring in new transfers (without massively overpaying).

Yes, I agree. Just because there is no real risk of relegation doesn't mean the league season is a "free hit".

 

[romufc]

Not sure what the bit about corrupting players means but claiming we are clearing house is a stretch. Rashford, Antony and malacia have gone out on loans. It will be far harder to work out permanent moves for them. We are probably stuck with Shaw, mount and Casemiro for at least another year due to the size of their contracts

I still suspect we will only bring in around four players in the summer which will leave us with a piss poor squad

Every new player we have had comes in looks really good, 6 months to a year.. they start looking like the players already there.

We have been clearing house, from last summer. Going into the summer, Rashford, Antony, Lindelof, Casemiro, Eriksen, Malacia, Shaw could all be shown the door.

Even if we bring 4 players in, it will be a much better squad than it currently is, this squad was always going to take a few windows to sort out. It wasn't going to be an overnight method.

Signing in January has always meant overpaying, if we had to over pay for multiple signings by say 10m.... we are reducing our summer budget by 20/30m which could mean the extra signing.

 

[MadDogg]

Amorim‘s system is close to Ten Hag‘s actually, apart from the building out the back structure. No further apart than Slot and Klopp imo.

The players bought during Ten Hag are good on the ball.

Amorim is struggling with the same issues that Ten Hag struggled with: performance on the pitch. Scoring goals is our biggest issue (we need a top striker).

Both are great coaches and the players aren’t as bad as people say either.

Something is not clicking, so what you do is keep tweaking and changing, until it does.

Let‘s get some signings in this summer and see what happens.

You seem to be basing ETH's system on what he did at Ajax, not what he did here.

ETH's style here was basically for our defenders to sit deep, our attackers to push up, leave a lot of of space in the middle which our opposition could run into (to a ridiculous extent last season, but it was still happening this season), and when on the ball to focus on quick transitions without much worry about controlling the tempo of the game.

None of that, bar maybe the attackers pushing up (and even that feels like we're doing it in a more organised manner), sound like what we already seeing in a lot of games under Amorim. It's inconsistent and there have been a few games we seem to have slipped back into playing more like we did under ETH, but generally we're seeing a more measured approach when on the ball, more of a focus on controlling the tempo and dominating possession, and a more compact shape when out of possession.

The issue with scoring goals is obviously shared between them and that is largely on the players. But there's already a significant difference in the middle of the pitch and to a lesser extent the defence, in the way that they play both in and out of possession.

 

[waza7111]

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Would it not mean that if the team comes to EL final, that they are adapting to his system?

“fluked” was the key. Like when we take a dull draw to penalties.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I think its pretty obvious this season seems to be a complete write off for the club..

We wont get relegated, we cant realistically reach the european spots in the league.

Our best bet for euro football, is winning one of the cups , more the Europa rather than the FA cup.

Id say the club has just said to Amorim, have a go at winning the europa, dont worry about the league, just dont get us relegated.

Not getting into europe could have a massive effect on how we approach this summer and how we spend. Quite worrying

Every game we lose ends up being a little more demoralizing and hits the owners in the pocketbook. Happy players pull together, and happy fans buy club merch. Fans who have been mocked all season as their team gets shanked by teams who haven’t beaten them since color TV are not fans interested in buying United merch .

Then there’s the knock on effect on recruitment. Lower league positions means less money, and players (I would think) would be less ready to join a club in free fall than in one playing in the CL.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I agree with the sentiment and have said this myself. Especially with regards to integrating younger players. I mean how can you when you haven't time with the first team?

However, and this is a frustration, you can't have it both ways.

What I mean is you can't say I have no time with these players AND consistently say my way or the high way. With a totally different style/approach.


Take Garnacho as an example, and it is just an example. As a young winger he was flying prior to new management. Suddenly he is out and not performing in a new position. So we look at selling him for someone who can (yes I know there were other issues too but stick with me).

How can Nacho be expected to play in a new position without training? Surely better initially to utilize him in a position he is good at and then slowly get him to adapt as the training can be done?

Very good points. And you could go further and say these players aren’t going to be part of the team next season, so why force them to learn a system they can’t play?

 

[JPRouve]

That's because Amad is our best wingback by some distance and his willingness to dropback and start transition was crucial in that role, it was reminiscent of Bernardo Silva for Monaco. Also when you put him at AM you don't have Garnacho or Bruno in the team or in their best role for the team and instead you have worse footballers in Dalot, Mazraoui or Malacia.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Tell me you are joking right yes he should get time but he needs to show improvement soon and also be braver in his team selections otherwise Even Summer might be bridge too far for him .

I said above 10th. That is improvement unfortunately. Remember there is a lot of work to do and most of that is not under his control (squad building).

 

[Albo]

Ten Hag never understood the premier league , hope Amorim does . All we want to see is improvements , losing so many games aren’t helping anyone . I was expecting players fighting running a lot fast football attacking football etc . Love Amorim as our manager , but no system will work in premier league without two attacking wingers .

 

[NLunited]

There are similarities of course including a high line, ball playing CBs and pressing however

A- In ETH system the FB is expected to be an inverted fullback ie someone who cuts inside and play like a CM. Mazraoui is tailor made for that role. In Amorim system the wingback is expected to be a 90s type of winger (ie he hugs the touchline) but who can also defend. Beckham would have been Amorim's wet dream

B- Amorim likes ball possession. He expects the team to keep control over the ball up and wait patiently until they find a breakthrough. ETH with Manchester United played on a ridiculously high tempo when CM was almost bypassed.

C- ETH used wingers. Sure they were expected to cut inside but they were essentially wingers. Amorim plays with no 10. One of them must have winger traits (ex dribbling) and be able to help out on the flanks however he must be a no 10 first and a winger second.

D- Amorim like his CBs to be quite athletic and tall. Inacio is 6ft tall, while Debast and Diomande are 6ft3. ETH puts far more emphasis on ball playing CBs and less on athleticism and height. Which is why the likes of Timber and Martinez played a prominent role into his system

E- Amorim loved a classic DM. That role doesn't feature alot in ETH's teams

A not both sides and not every game
B yes absolutely
C our wingers played narrow: minimum width, not so different from the two tens
D 3 cb‘s instead of two is the difference, Amorim needs ball players too
E I‘m not seeing a classic dm under Amorim, but a cm ball winner (Ugarte)

The speed of playing forward is the biggest difference for me. Amorim‘s approach is more controlled.

Both strategies need players good on the ball and quick thinking.

 

[NLunited]

You seem to be basing ETH's system on what he did at Ajax, not what he did here.

ETH's style here was basically for our defenders to sit deep, our attackers to push up, leave a lot of of space in the middle which our opposition could run into (to a ridiculous extent last season, but it was still happening this season), and when on the ball to focus on quick transitions without much worry about controlling the tempo of the game.

None of that, bar maybe the attackers pushing up (and even that feels like we're doing it in a more organised manner), sound like what we already seeing in a lot of games under Amorim. It's inconsistent and there have been a few games we seem to have slipped back into playing more like we did under ETH, but generally we're seeing a more measured approach when on the ball, more of a focus on controlling the tempo and dominating possession, and a more compact shape when out of possession.

The issue with scoring goals is obviously shared between them and that is largely on the players. But there's already a significant difference in the middle of the pitch and to a lesser extent the defence, in the way that they play both in and out of possession.

The last bit is the biggest difference.

Ten Hag did not want to play with a donut hole, it is what happened because he had to line up players who weren‘t remotely match fit last season. This season there was no donut.

We basically traded creating chances for control. But so far it is not an improvement.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

We're not the only team playing midweek games with a new manager, why is this an excuse for him but not others?

Which of these new managers is implementing a completely different system under the kind of scrutiny that the United manager gets?

If we just wanted a cheerleader to suck the players off and cajole them into scraping into the top half of the table we could have got Ole back.

 

[Martinez4midfield]

Every game we lose ends up being a little more demoralizing and hits the owners in the pocketbook. Happy players pull together, and happy fans buy club merch. Fans who have been mocked all season as their team gets shanked by teams who haven’t beaten them since color TV are not fans interested in buying United merch .

Then there’s the knock on effect on recruitment. Lower league positions means less money, and players (I would think) would be less ready to join a club in free fall than in one playing in the CL.

Thank you for saying this, it's borderline comical reading how Zen some people are who may not even be local to buy tickets to a game let alone INEOS who have billions on the line watching Zirkzee who they just splunked 30 million pounds on barely look like a professional footballer while getting embarrassed by Crystal Palace at home.

 

[Toshey]

Since we lost from Crystal Palace this thread gained over 50 pages that would make Edgar Allen Poe proud.
I've never seen so much moaning in my life, and I discovered a free porn channel as a kid in early 2000.

After we win convincingly on Friday, I predict no more than 4 pages before Tottenham.

Our players are bad, our coach is in trouble, but the state of our supporters is worse than both.