Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

The improvements I'm talking about are within Amorim system. But that's fair, there is no expectation for Amorim and we should spend a fortune in the summer.

His system is completely different to ETH's which makes ETH's signings poorly suited into Amorim's system. I know its frustrating but that's unfortunately how things are. Hence why serious clubs who are run by serious men would have hired a manager whose style is closer to ETH's. Liverpool for example went for Slot whose philosophy fits the Klopp's team like a glove.

IDeots spoke about that as well (ie shifting from one style to another) and yet as most things with Ideots there seem a gulf between what they say and what they actually do.
 
You get rid of Antony and Rashford from the wage list. Good. But we should have gone for the likes of Chilwell, Euan Ferguson .. both of them are better than what we have. And would suit a 3-4-3.
 
I said at the start of his reign that he seemed to embody the best bits of all our post-Fergie managers but I think I might have had it exactly the wrong way round. Although I do concede his charisma is still Jose-esque (even if he is a very different character overall).

I want him to succeed as much as anyone but the way much of our fanbase wants to contort reality to excuse him of absolutely everything that is going wrong (and usually pin the blame on others) is almost cult-like.

Is it possible for a fanbase to gaslight itself? That seems to be what is happening here.
 
The improvements I'm talking about are within Amorim system. But that's fair, there is no expectation for Amorim and we should spend a fortune in the summer.

The only things we're missing to play the 'system' is wingbacks. After that it's about getting better through improving the implementation and athletic ability of the team over time.

The big challenge is that the team were training for an artificial transition build up style, while we're moving to a game plan where we need to move the ball better
 
His system is completely different to ETH's which makes ETH's signings poorly suited into Amorim's system. I know its frustrating but that's unfortunately how things are. Hence why serious clubs who are run by serious men would have hired a manager whose style is closer to ETH's. Liverpool for example went for Slot whose philosophy fits the Klopp's team like a glove.

IDeots spoke about that as well (ie shifting from one style to another) and yet as most things with Ideots there seem a gulf between what they say and what they actually do.
@golden_blunder can we change his tagline to IDeot?
 
His system is completely different to ETH's which makes ETH's signings poorly suited into Amorim's system. I know its frustrating but that's unfortunately how things are. Hence why serious clubs who are run by serious men would have hired a manager whose style is closer to ETH's. Liverpool for example went for Slot whose philosophy fits the Klopp's team like a glove.

IDeots spoke about that as well (ie shifting from one style to another) and yet as most things with Ideots there seem a gulf between what they say and what they actually do.
He's not forced to play his system.... there are other systems available to play....you know, that suits these players better...

Even being stubborn and playing his preferred system, Amorim should be getting more from the players. The fact that he isn't is definitely not on the minority owners....
 
He also said that we need reinforcements. Seriously don't you think we're starting February with a weaker squad than what we had prior to the January window? Cause I do and most of us do. Also why should United be selling their best young assets? It seems to me that since local lad came in every red line had vanished and we're just happy to get fecked by the owners whether its disrespecting SAF, raising ticket prices and now even selling our top young assets. If Ideots wanted to play spreadsheet then they should have bought Everton.
You could argue we’re stronger for having a left wing back, Rashford was basically a non entity under Amorim and Antony was literally a body and nothing else. Dorgu will have to be absolutely useless not to improve the squad.

We both know why United are in this position and it’s not really anything to do with Ineos. I don’t even want to be put in a position where I feel like I’m defending them, because feck that, but I really don’t see them doing what they’ve done with ticket prices and staff unless they thought it was the only option. The Glazers have caused this mess over a period of 20 years, not Ineos in one.
 
He's not forced to play his system.... there are other systems available to play....you know, that suits these players better...

Even being stubborn and playing his preferred system, Amorim should be getting more from the players. The fact that he isn't is definitely not on the minority owners....
But that's his system, he had been using it since his early days and we bought him in to play his system. It's like bringing Pep Guardiola and expect him to park the bus and play long ball football.
 
I am perplexed as to why Neville has decided to an extra special podcast session just to effectively have a pop at Amorim and put him under even more pressure.

Reading between the lines, I don't think he rates Amorim. Bizarre.

Whether you like him or not, his voice is a big one when it comes to Man Utd.
 
Players will need to be rested and injuries will be picked. That's what going to happen at the latter stages of the season. It seems Ideots weren't ready to spend 5m on Tel's loan but are perfectly fine in hiring/giving contract extensions and then sacking Ashworth and ETH.

Irrespective of that whoever wants to dig United out of that hole will need money..LOADS of it. I can't see IDeots having the will to do that
Tell us how you really feel about Ineos, devilish! :lol:

But on a serious note, yeah, any injuries or ration and we'll be screwed in attack. I suppose we will need to promote some kids as there's really no other options.

In the "AM" positions, we have Amad, Bruno, Mount (if he is ever fit for sustained periods again), Mainoo & Garnacho who can play there. Possibly Zirkzee as well. It's not as much quantity that's the issue, it's quality.

The end of the season really can't come quick enough!
 
I am perplexed as to why Neville has decided to an extra special podcast session just to effectively have a pop at Amorim and put him under even more pressure.

Reading between the lines, I don't think he rates Amorim. Bizarre.

Whether you like him or not, his voice is a big one when it comes to Man Utd.
Do you perhaps have a link, please? Haven't seen/heard about the podcast and yeah, our ex pros really don't do the club any favors at times.
 
Do you perhaps have a link, please? Haven't seen/heard about the podcast and yeah, our ex pros really don't do the club any favors at times.

Last thing we need is Neville riling up mouthbreathers to boo and abuse the players and staff more when we're rebuilding from scratch again and it will take a time...
 
Ruben Amorim was a talented young manager with a fantastic reputation

He was set up to fail by Ineos, bought into a toxic environment, /given no financial support, given no public support, hounded by the media and allowed to rot alongside his already putrid squad of overpaid overhyped egos.

it all comes from the top, Glazers out, iNEOS out.
 
You could argue we’re stronger for having a left wing back, Rashford was basically a non entity under Amorim and Antony was literally a body and nothing else. Dorgu will have to be absolutely useless not to improve the squad.

We both know why United are in this position and it’s not really anything to do with Ineos. I don’t even want to be put in a position where I feel like I’m defending them, because feck that, but I really don’t see them doing what they’ve done with ticket prices and staff unless they thought it was the only option. The Glazers have caused this mess over a period of 20 years, not Ineos in one.
Well the Glazers were set to sell as they had no option left on the table. Ideots gave them a lifeline despite being fully aware of the financial situation. The Glazers sins had became theirs (who did their fair share of mistakes as well like Ashworth hiring/sacking and ETH contract extension/sacking) although by the looks of it, its going to be the fans whose going to pay the bill for that.

Injuries will occur, players will need to be rested and there's absolutely no one who can provide cover now. We're writing off an entire season despite having two routes available in which we could get European football from (Europa league and FA cup). I wonder if there's going to use the 'We are not in Europe' excuse in the summer to justify an underwhelming summer transfer window as well
 
Last thing we need is Neville riling up mouthbreathers to boo and abuse the players and staff more when we're rebuilding from scratch again and it will take a time...
Absolutely. Then you start hearing similar themes/issues being pushed/peddled by the fanbase etc. as if we don't have enough to contend with already. I suppose thats part of the job...

Thanks bud.
 
Tell us how you really feel about Ineos, devilish! :lol:

But on a serious note, yeah, any injuries or ration and we'll be screwed in attack. I suppose we will need to promote some kids as there's really no other options.

In the "AM" positions, we have Amad, Bruno, Mount (if he is ever fit for sustained periods again), Mainoo & Garnacho who can play there. Possibly Zirkzee as well. It's not as much quantity that's the issue, it's quality.

The end of the season really can't come quick enough!

I rarely use nicknames these days but seriously how can you describe a company who

a- wait for a sporting director for months only to sack him after 5 months
b- give a manager a contract extension only to sack him after few months as well
c- keep moaning about the Glazers choosing managers whose style is so different to the previous one which in turn makes most of the squad redundant only to then do it themselves.
d- saying they want to bring Manchester United back to Manchester only to price the locals out of OT
e- join a business venture with the frigging Glazers!

If Bruno and Mainoo play as AM then they can't play in the 2 CM base at the same time. Same with Zirkzee (he can't act as a stk option and as a no 10) while Mount is Shaw incarnate. We lack quality and quantity.
 
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The only things we're missing to play the 'system' is wingbacks. After that it's about getting better through improving the implementation and athletic ability of the team over time.

The big challenge is that the team were training for an artificial transition build up style, while we're moving to a game plan where we need to move the ball better

Not really. Our positional play has been dreadful or ability to move the ball has been dreadful neither of these things are wingback dependents. Every team can run through the middle of our midfield with ease, it has also nothing to do with lacking wingbacks, our set pieces are shameless and wingbacks aren't responsible for that.

Do we need wingbacks? Yes, though Amad was pretty good at it and in reality we maybe lacked one good wingback to upgrade Dalot. Is that wingback going to fix all our issues?
 
I dont think Neville has said anything wrong there. Amorim can't keep losing home game after home game. We can't defend, we can't score, we've looked worse off than we were under ETH. He's so welded to his formation and is putting players in awkward positions to fit the formation. Something has to change because whatever he's doing till now aint working.
 
Not really. Our positional play has been dreadful or ability to move the ball has been dreadful neither of these things are wingback dependents. Every team can run through the middle of our midfield with ease, it has also nothing to do with lacking wingbacks, our set pieces are shameless and wingbacks aren't responsible for that.

Do we need wingbacks? Yes, though Amad was pretty good at it and in reality we maybe lacked one good wingback to upgrade Dalot. Is that wingback going to fix all our issues?

Positional play can be improved. The attacking players at the club are relatively to very young and need time to get repetitions in and gain experience.
Yeah the physicality of the side needs improving too, in the Premier League we're getting run over due to it.

The issue with a lack of wingbacks is no options for ball progression, as the converted fullbacks want to play deeper and pass.
 
Ruben Amorim was a talented young manager with a fantastic reputation

He was set up to fail by Ineos, bought into a toxic environment, /given no financial support, given no public support, hounded by the media and allowed to rot alongside his already putrid squad of overpaid overhyped egos.

it all comes from the top, Glazers out, iNEOS out.

I'm sounding really negative and it's bound to upset people but we need to keep in mind that this has no meaning in Football. Most young, talented(promising) managers fail, only a few prove to be as good as their initial reputation.
 
this is the best post on here.
The ones that are throwing Amorim under the bus after less than three months are ridiculous. He hasnt even played his one transfer in yet and has his hands tied with no LB fit, or any good, Rashford, Casemiro, Dalot, Onana and other over the hill and/or bang below average players and two forwards who would struggle at Championship level to score.
Lets at least give him a transfer window in the summer, to get a couple more of his own players in and next season before you throw him to the wolves.
It's far from the best post on here. I agree with some of it, but it's also not outlandish for people to be unhappy with a manager coming in and throwing ever changing combinations of players onto the park in his preferred formation when the results and performances don't look particularly good for it, nor do they look like they are improving much either.

There are a lot of issues with the squad, it certainly has it's flaws but I highly doubt it's as bad on the whole as is often made out.

Amorim so far, and Ten Hag most of the time in my opinion play(ed) in a way that appears to sacrifice numbers in midfield which then often exposes the lack of pace that definitely is a big issue across most of our defenders.

It's not a coincidence that we've sometimes played better against the bigger teams as it requires a different approach and there's more space in behind for us to exploit.

We struggle against teams that sit off and they then pick us off.

We're supposed to be moving to new styles of play that are a bit more proactive and will help us with that, it doesn't look like that's happening. It's only been three months under Amorim, he's got us holding the ball better but the same problems that have plagued us persist. We're being outnumbered and overpowered in midfield, as a result exposing the defenders lack of pace and mobility, we're trying to get the ball to stick to strikers that clearly can't do that particularly well when under pressure and we don't get many bodies in the box, or put the ball in early enough often enough.

I'm obviously just a fan and not a highly paid coach, but it appears to me there's too much focus on technicalities of systems and build up when the solutions may in essence be a bit simpler. You're more likely to score by having bodies in around the 6 yard box and actually putting the ball in early than you are shuffling the ball across the park at a snails pace. See Elanaga and Wood at Forest for how effective this can be.

To do what we appear to be trying to do, the little give and goes around the box need to be quick and on point, as do the positions of the players in the box and the accuracy of the pull backs. 9 times out of 10 we get this wrong, so we probably don't have the players for it.
 
Positional play can be improved. The attacking players at the club are relatively to very young and need time to get repetitions in and gain experience.
Yeah the physicality of the side needs improving too, in the Premier League we're getting run over due to it.


The issue with a lack of wingbacks is no options for ball progression, as the converted fullbacks want to play deeper and pass.

And that's what I'm expecting. Improvements in these areas, nothing more and nothing less.
 
We‘ve got it the wrong way round. A new manager is supposed to work with what he’s got, and once he has shown that he has a vision and can succesfully implement it (relative to the quality of the players), and only then, should he be allowed to influence the clubs strategy when it comes to transfers.

One of the biggest criticims of Pep is that he needs a squad that‘s handpicked for him.
And yet that is widely accepted in our fanbase as necessairy for our managers to succeed.

Also I think it is a bit concerning what he is communicating at times.
How big a task it is to get this group of players to play how he wants and how much of a struggle it will be. Not exactly helpful in filling the players with confidence and instilling a winning mentality.
Or when he said after one defeat that he knows how hard it is for the supporters but that it was hard for him as well.
Or when he stated that he‘s a young guy and sometimes makes mistakes.

Everybody has to decide for themselves to which degree they accept the performances and results.
But if you are willing to shrug it off and absolve Ruben from almost any responsibility the same has to be valid for the players when they struggle to get it right.
 
I said at the start of his reign that he seemed to embody the best bits of all our post-Fergie managers but I think I might have had it exactly the wrong way round. Although I do concede his charisma is still Jose-esque (even if he is a very different character overall).

I want him to succeed as much as anyone but the way much of our fanbase wants to contort reality to excuse him of absolutely everything that is going wrong (and usually pin the blame on others) is almost cult-like.

Is it possible for a fanbase to gaslight itself? That seems to be what is happening here.
No. People can easily see he is good. Turned lots of players into profit. Won with very attacking style. Is very charismatic. The gaslighting is because everyone was deluded with eth, and now are questioning every thing, all the time.

Its harder to accept the club hired an awful manager 3 years ago. And made a complete revamp of the team, buying worse than we had. Spending more than 700 million. But its the truth, nonetheless.
 
Well the Glazers were set to sell as they had no option left on the table. Ideots gave them a lifeline despite being fully aware of the financial situation. The Glazers sins had became theirs (who did their fair share of mistakes as well like Ashworth hiring/sacking and ETH contract extension/sacking) although by the looks of it, its going to be the fans whose going to pay the bill for that.

Injuries will occur, players will need to be rested and there's absolutely no one who can provide cover now. We're writing off an entire season despite having two routes available in which we could get European football from (Europa league and FA cup). I wonder if there's going to use the 'We are not in Europe' excuse in the summer to justify an underwhelming summer transfer window as well
Anyone in the world could have bid for United. One didn’t have proof of funds, the other was Ineos. That was the only choice.

What are you expecting from Ineos exactly. They hired people to form a structure below, said structure makes the football decisions. You are happy with that I assume? So when Ashworth decides to keep ETH, only for him to continue underperforming, then suggests the likes of Southgate, Eddie Howe and Graham Potter to be the new manager, does that seem okay to you?

Ineos ultimately hired Ashworth of course, but we can’t have it both ways in that we are desperate for a sporting structure but continue to blame the owners for very specific footballing decisions. I would be extremely worried if Ratcliffe was the one hiring and firing managers.

As for your concerns about the squad, yes it’s dire. Amorim will really struggle, but he’s set the path to clear out Rashford and Antony when he knew we didn’t have the funds to replace them. It seems that supporters are all up for clearing deck and resetting the club, until it actually comes to doing so.
 
But that's his system, he had been using it since his early days and we bought him in to play his system. It's like bringing Pep Guardiola and expect him to park the bus and play long ball football.
I feel like this comes up often, but it's sort of a false dichotomy. Changing your system doesn't have to mean "hoof it to the big man." Guardiola doesn't have Haaland attempt to play like Messi but he could win games with either of them as some kind of striker.
 
And that's what I'm expecting. Improvements in these areas, nothing more and nothing less.

It will take time. The actual attacking / possession shape is not extremely different to what we were doing under Ten Hag in attacking build up but different philosophy in how to move the ball up the pitch.

Ideally it's the profiles of players on the pitch are different, 3 centre backs and no fullbacks with one wingback who is correct footed and more defensive, and one who plays more like a wrong footed winger.

Obviously it's the defensive structure thats the most different and makes sense they are focusing on that first.
 
I don't see how he's going to succeed here anymore. It's clear that he needs a very specific set of players to play his best football, which we don't know to be successful in a big league anyway, and it'd take a major squad overhaul to get us to that point. An overhaul we are not ready for and we probably are not capable of conducting.
 
I feel like this comes up often, but it's sort of a false dichotomy. Changing your system doesn't have to mean "hoof it to the big man." Guardiola doesn't have Haaland attempt to play like Messi but he could win games with either of them as some kind of striker.

Excellent point!
 
Anyone in the world could have bid for United. One didn’t have proof of funds, the other was Ineos. That was the only choice.

What are you expecting from Ineos exactly. They hired people to form a structure below, said structure makes the football decisions. You are happy with I assume? So when Ashworth decides to keep ETH, only for him to continue underperforming, then suggest the likes of Southgate, Eddie Howe and Graham Potter to be the new manager, does that seem okay to you?

Ineos ultimately hired Ashworth of course, but we can’t have it both ways in that we are desperate for a sporting structure but continue to blame the owners for specific footballing decisions. I would be extremely worried if Ratcliffe was the one hiring and firing managers.

As for your concerns about the squad, yes it’s dire. Amorim will really struggle, but he’s set the path to clear out Rashford and Antony when he knew we didn’t have the funds to replace them. It seems that supporters are all up for clearing deck and resetting the club, until it actually comes to doing so.

We know how financially awful we are and how the whole thing is unsustainable even at short term. Thus if INEOS refused the deal then United would be back on the market in 1-2 year time and this time round the Glazers would have had to sell. INEOS gave them a lifeline and they did so knowing very well the situation we are in.

Regarding Ashworth, serious owners would have a proper recruitment process going on were they would be sure that the person they hire know what's he's doing and his views line with theirs. The questions you're asking are really basic stuff (ex who is the manager you would want if there's a vacancy at the club?) Yet for some strange reason that went missing with United which is why they hired and fired a Sporting director after 5 months. The same happened with Nice FC as well were Moody was hired as a consultant, he brought in a number of washed up EPL players and they ended with one of the worst seasons in their recent history.

Which leads us to SJR. We can't expect him to take football decisions yet we do expect him not drag bicycle man along at every club despite lacking football expertise and seem to be in the midst of every bad football decision taken by INEOS in recent years
 
I feel like this comes up often, but it's sort of a false dichotomy. Changing your system doesn't have to mean "hoof it to the big man." Guardiola doesn't have Haaland attempt to play like Messi but he could win games with either of them as some kind of striker.

Beyond that the concept of his system is nonsensical while a manager may have core ideas, none of the actual greats relied exclusively on a rigid system. If you take Ancelotti since Milan, the first system that he tries everywhere is his 4321, if it works he keeps it but if it doesn't he moves to something else. That's what all top managers do, Guardiola hasn't kept the structure of his initial Barcelona 433, nor has Klopp kept his initial gegenpress 4231. SAF has used all systems and approaches under the Sun depending on the players at his disposal, as have Mourinho. But somehow managers that are far less successful should stick to "their system" and be financially backed.
 
I feel like this comes up often, but it's sort of a false dichotomy. Changing your system doesn't have to mean "hoof it to the big man." Guardiola doesn't have Haaland attempt to play like Messi but he could win games with either of them as some kind of striker.

We hoofed to the big man under Ole, under ETH and we're doing it right now. Now either each and every manager we get becomes Big Sam incarnate or else the squad pretty much does what the feck they want.
 
I think you are on the money and its by no means a dig at you when I suggest that I can't believe more people don't realise that this is the case. Anything other than relegation and he is still in a job, the scale of the task is not lost on INEOS or Amorim, it apparently is very much still lost on much of the fanbase however.

I think our actions in the transfer/loan marker make it a given.

The hard part is detaching our emotions from this season and not getting triggered emotionally after every crap performance. God knows-I am trying hard!
 
It will take time. The actual attacking / possession shape is not extremely different to what we were doing under Ten Hag in attacking build up but different philosophy in how to move the ball up the pitch.

Ideally it's the profiles of players on the pitch are different, 3 centre backs and no fullbacks with one wingback who is correct footed and more defensive, and one who plays more like a wrong footed winger.

Obviously it's the defensive structure thats the most different and makes sense they are focusing on that first.

To be clear what are we debating? I said that I expect to see improvements between now and the end of the season. If there is no improvements and no tweaks coming from Amorim then he shouldn't be seen as a long term manager.
 
Beyond that the concept of his system is nonsensical while a manager may have core ideas, none of the actual greats relied exclusively on a rigid system. If you take Ancelotti since Milan, the first system that he tries everywhere is his 4321, if it works he keeps it but if it doesn't he moves to something else. That's what all top managers do, Guardiola hasn't kept the structure of his initial Barcelona 433, nor has Klopp kept his initial gegenpress 4231. SAF has used all systems and approaches under the Sun depending on the players at his disposal, as have Mourinho. But somehow managers that are far less successful should stick to "their system" and be financially backed.

Ok let's say Amorim is yet another managerial mistake (which I kind of agree). Who brought him in? Who made the HW prior signing him? Cause I assure you he's been using that same system since almost the beginning of time and he's also known to be very stubborn about it.
 
Ruben Amorim was a talented young manager with a fantastic reputation

He was set up to fail by Ineos, bought into a toxic environment, /given no financial support, given no public support, hounded by the media and allowed to rot alongside his already putrid squad of overpaid overhyped egos.

it all comes from the top, Glazers out, iNEOS out.
I don't think INEOS are doing a great job, and have made a lot of mistakes, but Amorim I assume was briefed on the situation, lack of funds etc. It may also be that he was a bad fit for the club at the stage its at and given these constraints. While you can't blame an ambitious manager for turning down the move, he could have always have waited. We also need to acknowledge he's not getting the best out of the current squad and his system is being exposed. We are constantly overrun in midfield and the 3 centre backs bizarrely don't give us any defensive solidity. Plus its not a surprise we cannot score when we start matches with so few attacking players on the pitch.
 
To be clear what are we debating? I said that I expect to see improvements between now and the end of the season. If there is no improvements and no tweaks coming from Amorim then he shouldn't be seen as a long term manager.

I'm making the point that we're not seeing his plan because we're having to play fullbacks, beyond that it will take time and we'll be inconsistent while the players get games and training under their belts
 
I dont think Neville has said anything wrong there. Amorim can't keep losing home game after home game. We can't defend, we can't score, we've looked worse off than we were under ETH. He's so welded to his formation and is putting players in awkward positions to fit the formation. Something has to change because whatever he's doing till now aint working.
I really don’t think we have looked far worse than under ten Hag. We are making the some of the same individual mistakes which is costing us points but there’s more control and more solidity in midfield. What we are desperately missing is goal scoring talent to convert chances into concrete points.

You put a top striker into ten Hag’s side and I don’t think you’re much better off, still a huge hole through the middle and still conceding 30 shots per game. You put a top striker into this side and I think you will see a transformation.
 
Clearly written off the season with the hope of winning EL. Presume Rubes will get his Swedish striker and possibly the rb, and possibly more in the summer., with the approval of INEOS and Glazers.
Ludicrous knee jerkers here writing the boss off after 3 months with next to no reinforcements. Some people have the attention span of goldfish