No, unless you decide to not read what is said. I said that he shouldn't be given a free ride and should be judged on his ability to improve the team between now and the end of the season. That was in the context of spending big money to fullfill his vision this summer.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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No, unless you decide to not read what is said. I said that he shouldn't be given a free ride and should be judged on his ability to improve the team between now and the end of the season. That was in the context of spending big money to fullfill his vision this summer.
Man(let) United this season.
Quite undersized compared to the opposition. That's about squad building and coaching can only do so much
There's a few issues with it for me.
1) We looked better in attack in the 4231 formation at times, but we went through a period where one attacker was generally in good form and dragged us through games. This stopped towards the end of ETH's time and we looked shite in attack. This is on top of how poor we looked in midfield and defence in the 4231.
2) We've sold 2 wingers so now are a bit short in those positions.
3) As others have said, it just delays us moving forward until the summer. I suppose the silver lining to what we are doing is that Amorim and the club will be under no illusions as to who will or won't work here moving forward.
4) If we change to a 4231 and we are still terrible, which is most likely what will happen, where do we go from there? Honestly Amorim will be done with us I think, and we'll be struggling to move forward at all. At that point it would be 100% confirmation that the squad is just awful, which I think again is very likely.
5) If we look better in the temporary move to a 4231 (I don't expect we'll look like world beaters, but there's always a chance we do look better) then where does that leave us with Amorim? Another manager sacked in the summer I suspect, as there will be little appetite to move back to his system.
I'm convinced we'll look poor in whatever system we play, in all honesty. This team was built for ETH, the 'Pep/Klopp' hybrid according to most of our fans, and even he couldn't get a tune out of it. So what hopes do anybody else have? You can't get away from the simple fact that he built a team with no pace, no power, poor on the ball, can't beat players in attack, can't score etc etc. Some of those things may be able to be corrected, but we'll still get bullied week in, week out with this team.
Is that true? By heights we are apparently 9th and I don't think that we are particularly undersized, the players play with little aggression and give the impression of being frail but they aren't.
If that's true then it's the Beek effect
The shortest 6 foot bloke ever and seemingly contagious
The header early on against Palace summed us up, where their LWB crossed and their RWB towered over Dalot, who looked like he was casually ducking down for whatever reason. The players just haven't got that fire in them to want to attack every situation and impose themselves.
What's interesting about Amorim coming in is I can barely, if ever, remember hearing a lack of training sessions being used as an excuse for poor performances under any other manager, let alone a rolling excuse three months into their tenure.
We know we wont get relegated, but I think there is a chance Amorim wont be with us to enjoy the summer rebuild.
If we dont get back in the top half, all those players we wanted may think about other suitors due to our bad league position.
I would have brought in a couple of players. I think its negligent not to go for Tel for the sake of £5m. That is not going to blow your summer window.
However we can expect a £200m splurge in July, so thats something to look forward to.
If we dont get back in the top half, all those players we wanted may think about other suitors due to our bad league position.
I would have brought in a couple of players. I think its negligent not to go for Tel for the sake of £5m. That is not going to blow your summer window.
However we can expect a £200m splurge in July, so thats something to look forward to.
It might be bring more positive results in the short term but it won't result in anything great in the long term. We've been down that road many times before. We hired Amorim because the club believes in his system and formation, asking him to change it now would be pointless. In my opinion we just need to ride out this season and get to the summer when we can improve the team and bring in players who are better suited to playing in the Amorim system.
Things didn't even improve when we stopped having mid week games as well, so it can't be an excuse anymore. Also makes you wonder what are they doing two to three days before each of these midweek matches? No other team has this issue in the league.
We might get relegated, you don't know. But Amorim would have no one to blame but himself if he get's sacked, he's not making it easier for himself. Just like ETH.
Tel is a 19 year old with a mediocre scoring record. We are basically buying another punt ala Hojlund and Zirkzee when we need a more established goalscorer. I'm not asking for a player over 30, but someone at their peak who is proven to deliver goals. We also don't have much money to spend after this summer.
Since we have little money, I don't know how you expect 200m to be spent next summer, especially with the lack of champions league? The latter of which may also prevent us getting players.
If that's true then it's the Beek effect
The shortest 6 foot bloke ever and seemingly contagious
Think about the players we lineup, they are not small at all. For his position only Martinez would be relatively small, the rest aren't. Then you have Amad but he is one of the few that plays bigger. Our lack of apparent physicality is a combination of terrible positioning and lack of positive aggression, sometimes they lash out but you rarely see anyone go into a challenge in time but with a message to send.
Well Ugarte and Bruno are surely small for a Premier League midfield too.
He needs at least 4-5 new players to succeed, which we can't afford nor scout. So we are doomed for least another season. He seems like a very average coach based on the lack of progress so far.
I haven't listened to it yet, bud.
No. Bruno is roughly the same size than Mac Allister, Ugarte is bigger. They are both average for AM and CMs. Mainoo and Ugarte are about the same size than Caicedo and Enzo Fernandes. Bruno is bigger than Foden.
Athletically this team lacks raw speed and the willingness to be aggressive runners and tacklers but we do not have a small team.
I think we already have a deal in mind for a striker in summer hence we didnt move now. Maybe even for an attacking midfielder too.
From their POV they will think better to wait and buy quality.
You got a source for this supposed deal?
Maybe not, but plenty of people (yourself included) are sure giving the impression that you've already made your mind up that he's going to be unsuccessful. And it's obviously fine to have that opinion, I'm just not sure we need to hear it over and over again?
This part of your post would be better directed to @JPRouve as it was him that confidently stated things hadn't changed at all since the 80s and 90s - it was me that said the opposite.
Our previous managers (bar Ole) all got to start the season so had that preseason to get things in place. And Ole didn't really change too much tactically from what we were doing under Mourinho; mostly just pushed us a bit higher up the field and gave our attackers more freedom to express themselves.
Amorim has come in mid-season and is changing formation, pushing us higher up the field, changing the way we build-up in possession and changing what positions our players move into while defending. All while having very few training sessions that can be dedicated to those changes.
This was always the issue with all the people who were saying 'give ETH the first few months of the season and then fire him if he can't turn it around'. It was ridiculous how many people were saying that after we won the FA Cup. Completely ignoring the fact that it was instantly making the job much more difficult for the guy who would replace him.
That point was about evaluating managers and them be sacked relatively quickly. You have an incredible habit to be disingenuous.
I think anyone reading your posts today will be able to make their own minds up.
For what it's worth I agree with most of what you're saying. Any criticism of Amorim round here goes down like a bag of shite and you'll be accused of wanting him to get the sack for asking any questions at all.
The biggest worry for me is we want to bet everything on this manager who only knows how to work with one rigid system, a system which we've never shown any inclination of moving towards previously.
By the time we get to May his system will be completely tainted and the dressing room's confidence on the absolutely floor making the job of making it work next season ten times more difficult. He's a smart guy and should know this.
I swear we could get relegated and you'd have plenty justifying it saying 'this is perfect, the ultimate reset for Amorim's system' etc.
As you've pointed out, great managers all at least have a degree of pragmatism and flexibility alongside their core principles.
Of course and I know what I actually wrote.
What the heck is disingenuous about that? You said that in terms of evaluating managers and sacking them quickly it's no different now to how it was in the 80s, and @witchtrials said the opposite: "clubs can't afford to wait and see if a faltering manager will eventually come good, as they might have been able to do in the 80s and 90s."
When did we stop having mid-week games? We've played two games a week every week since he got here other than the two weeks we drew with Liverpool then beat Arsenal in the FA Cup.
We had a few weeks where there was no mid week game and people were saying there was an improvement. But I can't remember which games they were, I think it was coinciding in Maguire's return.
One question I don't see asked a lot is: do we even like this system?
I certainly wouldn't want to see United playing so defensively long-term, even if we start picking up points. I've always enjoyed watching United teams with pace, fast-breaks, and flair. I'm hoping he will start to make us more exciting to watch soon.
I certainly wouldn't want to see United playing so defensively long-term, even if we start picking up points. I've always enjoyed watching United teams with pace, fast-breaks, and flair. I'm hoping he will start to make us more exciting to watch soon.
But pep hasn't stuck to the same system, he changes formations yet the principles stay the same.
SAF used to change formations depending on the opponent, Klopp used to tinker and adapt, the best managers are not defined by their system, they are defined by the way the team play, be that relentless running, pressing or domination of the ball.
Ah fair enough. Gave it a watch and thought he was spot on. He wasn't insulting to Amorim either, in fact he backed him on saying its his system or nothing.
But he did highlight that the longer his system fails him the harder itl be to convince players.
Those are all fair enough, yeah. I was a bit apprehensive, initially, when I read Neville was going in on Amorim as - from a very superficial level, it seems even our ex pros have had enough of some of our players and have been quite supportive of this new approach (culminating with Scholes and a few others actually criticising Rashford in the media etc. ). From what I recall previously, they always seemed to protect a few of our players, especially the homegrown ones.
But I could be wrong re all the above. I'm not such a big stats nerd and generally post mostly on what I think I remember/how i perceived things (which could all be wrong, of course).
I'll give it a watch later anyway.
He's extremely similar to Alonso, who is regarded as one of the next supercoaches in Europe.
I think any top manager who is very wedded to a style of play will always struggle with an unbalanced, and frankly shite squad.
I'm amazed there are people questioning his position here, his mistakes can be called out for sure, but he deserves time and money.
What has he shown to make him deserve money?
Pep struggled a lot in his first season and had to overhaul the squad. That was a squad which included the likes of KDB, Silva, Aguero and Kompany. A world class spine.
Pep would have similar results with this squad, I genuinely believe that.
Only 4-5 to do what? Finish top 4? top 8? win a cup? win the league? win the CL?
I mean even if we hand picked the best 5 players on the planet, I don't think we would be able to win a major trophy.
Peps struggles in his first season weren't a patch on United's current ills.
There's no way that United squad should be where they are in the table. It's inexcusable and quite frankly anyone that reckons they should be is blinded by a wishful narrative.
It's a better squad than at least 12 of the current premiership teams without doubt.
It's a redundant question. The squad needs investment irrespective of how much our current manager is struggling to show value with the existing players.
So what do you suggest we do? How unbelievably stupid is it to hire a manager who is openly wedded to a system which you do not have a squad for? He doesn't even have a leftback, yet alone a wingback.
There's two things you do, believe in the project and invest in it, or sack again, bring in another manager who can play 4-2-3-1 on the counter with Hojlund and Zirkzee regularly losing us games with their inability to score. Then we'll go back to saying it's the players not the manager, and repeat the same cycle.
We've got a coach who is better than the results show, but context is required.
There's even less basis for that statement than people have claiming this is a top 6 squad