There's more than Spurs who could knock us out of EL, we've 2 wins from 11, and neither was convincing
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
I don't doubt we can make top 6 if we go back to giving Rashford, Garnacho and Bruno free reign but that's a cycle we've needed to break for a while. Previously it was painful winning games and still knowing we were going nowhere. This is what tearing it up is supposed to look like in the short term. IMO he already won a lot of faith when he came in and knew the old blueprint wasn't going anywhere.
That’s a brilliant analogy.
Just a thought regarding those saying he should stick to his system for the longer term gain. If these players aren't and never are going to play, be good enough, or stay in his system then why not change it short term with these players, possibly get better results, then change to his system when he has a chance to buy players he wants.
I agree a reset is needed for your club, but there seems to be a contradiction here where people are saying 'he needs to stick to his system' but also that 'these players won't be here or shouldn't be here.'
If that's the case then he might as well change the system whilst he has them... And if they are still going to be here then that system will not work anyway so what is the point?
I agree a reset is needed for your club, but there seems to be a contradiction here where people are saying 'he needs to stick to his system' but also that 'these players won't be here or shouldn't be here.'
If that's the case then he might as well change the system whilst he has them... And if they are still going to be here then that system will not work anyway so what is the point?
Ten Hag was barely doing any better than Amorim with this team though. W3 D2 L4 when he was sacked, 11 points in 9 games. Amorim is W3 D2 L6, so 11 in 11 but he had to face Arsenal, City and Liverpool all away from home while ten Hag only played Liverpool at home. There's hardly any difference in results between the two (which is damning for Amorim as ten Hag was absolutely abysmal).
Obviously it's a team ten Hag handpicked for more than half a billion so he gets less leeway here.
I'm with you. The mitigating factors are clear to see, and, truth be told, i haven't seen many on here talking about significant improvements. But one way or another, you have to show that you're up to the task, that's what most are trying to say (i think). And what are these unrealistic expectations, exactly? Potter walked into his first big gig after the international break too, he also inherited a horror show (scatter gun approach in the transfers, new ownership learning on the job) and got sacked after getting 28 points in 22 matches. Do we even look like a team that can get 28 points in Amorim's first 22 games in charge?
Zero chance. We got 11 in his first 11 so that would require us to get 17 in the next 11. That's more than 1.5 points a game, we are not doing that on current form. Probably closer to 8-10 points getting it to about 20 points in first 22 games.
You missed the one other farcical bit off the end though....
The new conductor knows he has got a pretty average jazz band... and he also knows that its going to be long while before he can make all the changes to the band he needs to play his brand of classical music.
But rather than adapt the set list, maybe a bit of jazz/classical fusion to bridge the gap until the changes are possible... maybe even making a few of the jazz band he wants rid of look attractive to others on the hunt for players in the process... He keeps on asking them to play back to back Mozart with no hope of them ever being able to play it.
Or in other words... being dealt a bad hand doesn't admonish Amorim from making poor, stubborn decisions.
Absolutely spot on
and if we want to extend the analogy further, the new conductor already could already see before taking the job that this band only knew jazz but he took the job anyway.
He's now getting them to attempt to perform classical night after night to massive crowds and then telling the music press that they're the worst classical band of all time.
Which is a shame because if he used his creative talents he could create a passable jazz-classical fusion band until his new musicians arrive.
You clearly didn’t read the message you replied to, I’m actually agreeing with you and saying the club should have recruited a PL proven coach like Iraola, I actually think we have another Villa Boas situation with Amorim, slick PowerPoint presentations wonderful record in Portugal, but far too in flexible to be the next messiah of football coaching!
First time I’ve seen a manager not be held responsible for only knowing one tactic!
So the players are meant to be these adaptable pros who will understand every instruction from every manager, yet the manager gets to set up one formation, one playstyle and that’s feet up, job done? Makes no sense.
Whenever theres something bad going on the narratives always change.
My narrative stays the same, the board are giving him no chance of competing as gave Ten Hag ridiculous amounts of cash.
Because we weren't exactly tearing it up last season with a more traditional formation. In fact, we ended the season with negative goal difference
Those that say the plan should be to change formations over the summer, instead of now, ignore the fact that then we would be beginning next season whilst still coming to terms with the new formation.
Yup.
And just to rub salt in the wounds... the team who rolled us over yesterday, with their brand new, shiny, young manager, played a system that they havent played all season to play to the weaknesses of the system that the KNEW they were going to face.
Not only can't our team play the system... every team know exactly how to prepare for us, because the manager literally tells the press that he only has one way of playing.
No one is saying he should play ETHs suicidal 41- massive gap - 41 of the last 18 months though. Why not try and incorporate elements of the low block, compact, counter attacking 4231 that won us a cup, came third, got to another final, and a European quarter in his first season?
And for everyone saying that style of football wont get you anywhere along the progression route.... Forest say hi!
But his plan was to start Mount next to Bruno as an 8. That could never work.
They're not exactly the same but they're similar in terms of breaking up play and passing to the technical creative players. Casemiro a few years ago could play box to box like Ugarte.
Play more direct to suit the team but add players, specifically in midfield who provide elements of control when needed.
I wouldn't say a few years ago when ETH led you to 3rd United were a counterattacking team. You had the 5th highest possession.
Football tactics and setup is all about balance provided by the players.
We beat you at Old trafford, scoring from a bunch of counterattacks.
The when you beat us at your place, we had only 1 shot on target. It was 3-2 after a weird Martinez header as our 2nd goal.
ETH led us to 3rd with Rashford being in the best form of his life. The moment this fell apart, we were left without a goalscorer - issue that we can't resolve to this day.
Truth is, we had a lot of worrying games where we were bailed out by De Gea and/or Rashford.
Plenty of games he had less possession than Ole had, we were very much a team that did not bother with it that much.
ETH did that and never changed back.
Well, he did try to, in his 2nd season before it went all pear shaped with injuries and what not. First season he played a 4-2-3-1 where it fetched him results being pragmatic and 2nd season he tried to play a variation of 4-3-3 with two attacking no.8s and not being pragmatic.
Because we can't replace a whole squad in the summer to come. So we work on this system now with the view that some of these players will know what to do next year so we won't be starting from scratch next season.
Being incapable of adapting is not a virtue, and every time we get into this players v manager debate that seems to be forgotten. This time I don't blame the players, it isn't a lack of effort or application, they just aren't good enough. This is the outcome of horrific club recruitment processes going back over a decade.
Don't blame Amorin either, we knew he wouldn't adapt and handed him a shitshow not of his making, now he is going to have rip this squad to pieces with nothing to spend and that is probably behind the rumours around Garnacho and Mainoo, will have to sell to be able to buy.
Don't blame Amorin either, we knew he wouldn't adapt and handed him a shitshow not of his making, now he is going to have rip this squad to pieces with nothing to spend and that is probably behind the rumours around Garnacho and Mainoo, will have to sell to be able to buy.
Fara Williams explained very well on MOTD2, it's sometimes very hard to adjust yourself from back 4 to back 3 system. How the central defenders wanted to push forward and the front 3 didn't help them at all, they didn't press high enough and left the midfield too packed.
Brighton were brilliant at giving our midfield 2 no room to turn with the ball. A lot our players aren't still very comfortable with the back 3.
Brighton were brilliant at giving our midfield 2 no room to turn with the ball. A lot our players aren't still very comfortable with the back 3.
'What not' i.e. By playing 2 attacking midfielders, leaving Casemiro alone and exposed, and being completing overrun facing 30 shots per game.
Iraola'a first 11 PL games at Bournemouth after signing in July and overseeing their pre-season:
P11 W1 D3 L7 GF9 GA27 GD-18 Pts6
Indeed, it's a trap which I'm happy Amorim has been smart not to fall for, the trap of "temporarily changing style for short-term results." Once you do that and you have a few good results (albeit with doubtful performances), it becomes even more difficult to return to your preferred system as no one would accept the poor results during bedding time after having been used to decent/less-crap results. The best (only) time you can attempt to impose a style and you can be awarded patience in the midst of the crappiest results is when you have just freshly signed and no one (
) would think of firing you right away. I just hope he has a common understanding with his bosses concerning this plan of action.I'm not absolving him of any blame but there were plenty of other factors too which contributed to that mess of a season.
This whole style debate is overdone. The best coaches have some flexibility, they don't obsess about a rigid system. Certainly Fergie adapted, as has Pep, Slot doesn't obsess about a system which by all accounts a key reason he was chosen. I liked Amorim as an appointment but the rubbish he is serving up is a concern with no sign of improvement. All this 'trap' stuff around changing styes is just BS. A top coach can set up a team to get results, our squad is poor but we should not be getting schooled on the ball by Southampton at home. People say ETH changed and then didnt go back, but his high press chaos ball and no midfield was a close variant to how Ajax played, just with a better overall team and one playing in a hugely inferior league where its shortcomings were masked.Iraola'a first 11 PL games at Bournemouth after signing in July and overseeing their pre-season:
P11 W1 D3 L7 GF9 GA27 GD-18 Pts6
Indeed, it's a trap which I'm happy Amorim has been smart not to fall for, the trap of "temporarily changing style for short-term results." Once you do that and you have a few good results (albeit with doubtful performances), it becomes even more difficult to return to your preferred system as no one would accept the poor results during bedding time after having been used to decent/less-crap results. The best (only) time you can attempt to impose a style and you can be awarded patience in the midst of the crappiest results is when you have just freshly signed and no one (
It’s January 2027, after consecutive bottom half finishes for Manchester United they once again languish at 12th as Amorim is still trying to drill ‘the system’ into the team.
"It is difficult, we've had only five training sessions"
2027 - we win the league and you guys are saying "I was wrong" or are not posting anymore.
A plausible future also.
A plausible future also.
Yeah, I find it mental to think that professional players that have largely played well for other teams (even top teams for some of them) can't adapt to play a couple of different formations.
I don't understand it, but yet I watch the horror show unfold nearly every game, so apparently it is the case.
I'm not sure how much of it is tactical awareness though. If you drill Dalot to tactical perfection it won't change the fact he does not have the footballing ability to be a Premier League attacker.
If we're getting outplayed by bottom half teams by end of season then sure he can go, but no one is losing sleep in January that we're not adapting quick enough to finish 8th.
If we ask our new Manager to adapt his tactics to suit the squad then we're simply falling back into the same trap of the previous few Managers where they have to use a system they aren't comfortable training in. Remember when all of you lost your collective shit because ETH decided to play a style that wasn't his Ajax style? I remember. You're now all asking Amorim to do exactly this. It's bonkers. Just be patient and accept that this season is going to be a shit show but it will give us medium/long term gains. Stick with the Manager and his tactics. Allow him, the staff and club to identify the players that simply cannot adapt to this system and we attempt to get rid and replace in the Summer. We'll be stronger in the long term if we go through this process now. Why not go through this process in a season that was also trashed by ETH? We can play for the cups.
People are trying to get history to repeat itself and as bad as Ten Hag was we don't acknowledge the part we played. This was just last year.
Same movie. Apparently some tool in the hierarchy told him to adapt to the players and he had to come up with these weird, two headed, homunculus hybrid tactics where the attack and defence looked like they were coached by different managers. Let Amorim cook. If he fails, he fails on his own merit.
Feck off using love heart smilies for MG
I used them collectively for the attack in comparison to today. Relax and stop turning it into an issue.
This post is a reminder of the fifa playing modern football fan, where they think by changing formation, play pacey players everything will be rosey.. This isn't the real world.. tactics, philosophies, styles are fundamentals that most top managers these days stick by.. Amorim was hired for having just that.. A system that he knows and has always coached and has worked for him, so it would be bonkers to change that now because the poor players can't play it. Those who can't, will be coached to learn it, and if there is no hope, then they'll be replaced. In this system, the wingbacks are specialists and are the most important part of the team, and until he gets them, it's going to be tough. He's the right person for the job, and will turn it around. It's not his fault that the club had a terrible terrible manager and a board just as bad during the last few years, but one has to admire RA for believing that he will turn it around.
Diabolical they'd bring him and not bring in a single new player. With that said, I wouldn't get too attached that obviously tells me they expect significant improvement out of the current crop and I'm not sure you're going to see that. It really can go either way.
Think that Southampton game papered over some cracks, they were thoroughly out played for large parts of the game. That's really worrisome. Yet at the same time they looked like they knew what they were doing vs Liverpool. That's why I say I think it can go either way but one thing I'm pretty certain of is there is no new first 11 coming anytime soon. He's got to prove at sone point he can get this group going.
Think that Southampton game papered over some cracks, they were thoroughly out played for large parts of the game. That's really worrisome. Yet at the same time they looked like they knew what they were doing vs Liverpool. That's why I say I think it can go either way but one thing I'm pretty certain of is there is no new first 11 coming anytime soon. He's got to prove at sone point he can get this group going.