Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

erikcred said:
Depends on what he considers a proper training session. Obviously he’s had more than four sessions with the team.
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What's the difference between a training session and a proper training session? Why not do proper training at more of the training sessions?

They're not real questions that anyone can give an answer to because ultimately the "four training sessions" thing is media soundbyte bollocks.

Obviously the point he's trying to make is he hasn't been in post for long - which is fair enough and I don't think anyone should be writing him off at this stage. But the four training sessions line just seems like an insult to our intelligence and it's a bit grating to see it repeated at face value.
 
Snow said:
Just that you're having a go for someone for defending a manager when criticizing another who just beat City which hasn't been uncommon for us. EtH beat them twice. If we'd only play City we wouldn't do worse than any average season so us beating City isn't the objectively positive thing that you might think it is, especially not when they're in their worst form of the past 70 years or so. Or if you think that's good then maybe Ole was not so bad with his 2nd and 3rd placed finishes and decent CL runs?

Seems strange to me to simultaneously shit on former managers whilst praising someone who's fairly new into managing clubs and has done pretty badly for us. Maybe we should wait a little. Moyes did poorly from the start. The others all had decent (relatively speaking) two seasons overall with everything falling apart in their 3rd.

This is a new one for us. We have to go back decades to see a manager come in and results get worse. It's also down to the manager. He's deciding to implement his new tactics when there isn't time on the training ground to learn it instead players are having to learn on the go whilst being rotated. Obviously not ideal. Maybe it will pay off. The optimist in me just isn't there for it because that means believing unconditionally in the manager with the current squad AND that the people above him have the good decision making to see it through. We've never had both since Gill and SAF retired so I totally get why people don't have the patience to see through the kind of slump we're in now.
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I don’t think beating city is the objective thing you’re making it out to be. I brought that up as it was just a week or so ago we beat them and the manger was being criticised after it.
I didn’t bother reading the rest sorry
 
witchtrials said:
What's the difference between a training session and a proper training session? Why not do proper training at more of the training sessions?

They're not real questions that anyone can give an answer to because ultimately the "four training sessions" thing is media soundbyte bollocks.

Obviously the point he's trying to make is he hasn't been in post for long - which is fair enough and I don't think anyone should be writing him off at this stage. But the four training sessions line just seems like an insult to our intelligence and it's a bit grating to see it repeated at face value.
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Most of the time in between back to back games, players that played are in recovery sessions. So you don‘t get to train with the full squad.
 
witchtrials said:
What's the difference between a training session and a proper training session? Why not do proper training at more of the training sessions?

They're not real questions that anyone can give an answer to because ultimately the "four training sessions" thing is media soundbyte bollocks.

Obviously the point he's trying to make is he hasn't been in post for long - which is fair enough and I don't think anyone should be writing him off at this stage. But the four training sessions line just seems like an insult to our intelligence and it's a bit grating to see it repeated at face value.
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It's not that unbelievable really although perhaps exaggerated. When you consider how many games we had with 3 day gaps then it's easy to see how little time he's had with them.

Players tend to have rest days after a game and light training the day before a game. When you factor in post match analysis and all the other elements teams run through we've probably not had a huge number of intensive days to work on his tactics with them.

The schedule clears up soon obviously so you'd hope more time on the training ground will help.
 
NLunited said:
Most of the time in between back to back games, players that played are in recovery sessions. So you don‘t get to train with the full squad.
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This is true for sure, but it's just normality in top level football. By this definition Liverpool or other teams going deep into multiple competitions will probably only have 6 training sessions all season.
 
erikcred said:
The circle of managerial life at our club.
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It's certainly understandable feeling that way! If you don't believe or have hope then time to stop being a supporter though..

Look, of course success is not guaranteed but Amorim just has the air of someone who a) knows what he wants and how to get it and b) won't stop til he achieves it, no matter what gets in his way
 
witchtrials said:
This is true for sure, but it's just normality in top level football. By this definition Liverpool or other teams going deep into multiple competitions will probably only have 6 training sessions all season.
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Not really sure how it’s comparable. We are trying to do something new. How long did it take Klopp to get his style engrained into his team?
 
RoadTrip said:
Not really sure how it’s comparable. We are trying to do something new. How long did it take Klopp to get his style engrained into his team?
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A lot longer! And Amorim should be given plenty more time and patience to train this squad.

The thing that was grating with me is this hyperbolic excuse-making about 4 training sessions. Come off it.

If we now only count training sessions where the circumstances are perfect, everyone can participate fully etc. then lots of managers who join mid-season get zero training sessions for weeks on end.

It's a minor gripe really so I've already posted too much about it. But sometimes it grates when you can see a bullshit media soundbyte start to be repeated as if it's realistic or factual.
 
witchtrials said:
I don't see how it can possibly be true. He has been in post for about six weeks. Try just coming in for training more than once a week?
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witchtrials said:
It's a minor gripe really so I've already posted too much about it. But sometimes it grates when you can see a bullshit media soundbyte start to be repeated as if it's realistic or factual.
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Would be nice if you both agreed on something.
 
witchtrials said:
A lot longer! And Amorim should be given plenty more time and patience to train this squad.

The thing that was grating with me is this hyperbolic excuse-making about 4 training sessions. Come off it.

If we now only count training sessions where the circumstances are perfect, everyone can participate fully etc. then lots of managers who join mid-season get zero training sessions for weeks on end.

It's a minor gripe really so I've already posted too much about it. But sometimes it grates when you can see a bullshit media soundbyte start to be repeated as if it's realistic or factual.
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That's why top coaches don't want to take teams midseason.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
I don’t think beating city is the objective thing you’re making it out to be. I brought that up as it was just a week or so ago we beat them and the manger was being criticised after it.
I didn’t bother reading the rest sorry
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No need to apologies mate. You're free to read and respond to what you want. I like the honesty of bothering to respond. That's more than what I would have done.
 
red_de_pologne said:
like Zidane, Flick, Nagelsman, Tuchel among others did?
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None of them wanted that, they tend to avoid it but Flick was the assistant manager for Bayern and his next club was Barcelona that he joined during summer. Nagelsmann never joined a new club midseason, Zidane also never joined a new club midseason, his second spell at Real Madrid was with the team he was coaching the previous season.
In that list Tuchel is the only counter example and there is always counter examples to generalities, though you could have mentioned SAF.
 
witchtrials said:
This is true for sure, but it's just normality in top level football. By this definition Liverpool or other teams going deep into multiple competitions will probably only have 6 training sessions all season.
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Yes, it‘s harder for a coach coming in mid-season though. We also were already in crisis.
 
JPRouve said:
None of them wanted that, they tend to avoid it but Flick was the assistant manager for Bayern and his next club was Barcelona that he joined during summer. Nagelsmann never joined a new club midseason, Zidane also never joined a new club midseason, his second spell at Real Madrid was with the team he was coaching the previous season.
In that list Tuchel is the only counter example and there is always counter examples to generalities, though you could have mentioned SAF.
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took over in January after Benitez? Anyway point is it's a stupid point to make, Amorim clearly is a good manager, not sure what taking over United mis season has to do with credentials.
 
red_de_pologne said:
took over in January after Benitez? Anyway point is it's a stupid point to make, Amorim clearly is a good manager, not sure what taking over United mis season has to do with credentials.
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You seemingly misunderstood the point. Top managers tend to not want midseason moves because they are particularly difficult and top managers have the option to chose their moves. The point had nothing to with credentials but the challenging nature of midseason moves.

Also Zidane didn't join a new club, he was coaching Real Madrid's B team.
 
NLunited said:
For me this season is a write off due to Amorim coming in mid season.
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I don’t understand why people claim this season was over before Amorim arrived. Look at the actual points:

• When Ten Hag left, there was a 7-point gap to the Champions League places, with 29 matches to go.
• When Ruud left, there was a 4-point gap to the Champions League places, with 27 matches to go.

These gaps are not ideal, but with so many games left, it’s not unreasonable to think there is a chance to get back in the fight. Also, at that point, we were still in all the competitions. Even form was not that bad when Amorim came in. The last 5 games under Ten Hag and Ruud (including the League Cup) are 3 wins, 1 draw, and 1 loss. The further you go back to the start of the season, the worse it gets.

I don't understand how the season could be a write-off at that point?

Now is the time that we are getting closer and closer to a write-off. Form is dipping, we are 12 points off Champions League places, and we’re out of the League Cup. Only Europa is going a little bit better. That is why i don't understand that some are looking at these results and are already concluding that this is the right guy that will bring success? He deserves time and he will get it, but i have doubts. For now it is fine, but i feel like we are in a place where things can spiral out of control real fast.
 
If he can’t unearth a few gems from the youth set up I can see him gone by this time next year. There’s no way he can shift all the shitbirds in our squad for enough money to cover the refresh that’s needed to get players comfortable with his style of play. The likes of Kukonki, Martin, Lacey, Amass, Fitzgerald might need to come good for him to be successful.
 
renatosanches85 said:
If he can’t unearth a few gems from the youth set up I can see him gone by this time next year. There’s no way he can shift all the shitbirds in our squad for enough money to cover the refresh that’s needed to get players comfortable with his style of play. The likes of Kukonki, Martin, Lacey, Amass, Fitzgerald might need to come good for him to be successful.
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The potential gems are all well known and he went to an early game of theirs (not sure if 21s or 18s). There’s 2 or 3 that age and then Ibrahimov and Obi.

The money issue… one decent sale changes a lot if home grown (pure profit vs amortised buys). Rashford for £50m+ …
 
JPRouve said:
They can be implemented during the season but it will be very slow because scheduling means that there isn't actually many full training sessions, most of the sessions are focused on passive recovery and installing gameplans that are within a tactical framework that was set during summer. And no in normal circumstances they are not really practicing new tactics or implementing new tactics during the season, a manager can decide to still do it but it will lead to significant inconsistency which is what we are seeing and what Liverpool or even Arsenal saw under Klopp and Arteta.

To give you a clear example, during preseason you have several hours per day that you can allocate to tactical drills with the entire squad during the season you maybe have 90 minutes per week or every two weeks and it is almost guaranteed that it won't be with the full squad. And those in season sessions do not include much actual field implementations unless you want to destroy your players conditioning.

There are two aspects of conditioning that makes it nearly impossible to switch quickly, the first one is the season planning, players are trained to physically peak at a certain period during the season and this process starts during preseason, the other thing is that the quicker you want the change to happen the more intense the training has to be which is a big source of fatigue, in the short term it leads to worse performances and injuries especially when you have to play competitive games twice a week.

Basically there is no shortcut on these things, you need time for both of these things and time isn't something that you have during the season, unless you really don't care about results.
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Players do have conditioning under ETH since the Summer break. It seems like you're implying that EtH's conditioning is totally useless, and Amorim had to start from the scratch; which is hard to believe. Amorim's may be more intense, but to dismiss EtH's totally is a bit of an excuse.

On the tactical drill. I also find it hard to believe that we can only have 90 minutes per week. It's a tactical drill that emphasize on a positional sense, not a full physical battles. And I imagine tactical drill is also part of the training to prepare against next opponent. So if we have another 30 games this season, it means we have at least 30 sessions of tactical drill.

But then, have to admit that not many big managers want to take over when almost half season gone. So most likely I just missed a crucial understanding with all these explanation you and Cheimoon have given.
 
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golden_blunder said:
We over fed the fish, the tank is leaking, the water is dirty, we need a bigger tank, the fish are lazy

Don’t feed them so much, keep them hungry, give the tank a renovation with clean water. See which fish swim around and which just lie at the bottom. Let the cat eat them
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If you keep the fish hungry they have a tendency to eat each other which gets a bit grim when you have bits of fish floating around on the top of the aquarium.
 
witchtrials said:
A lot longer! And Amorim should be given plenty more time and patience to train this squad.

The thing that was grating with me is this hyperbolic excuse-making about 4 training sessions. Come off it.

If we now only count training sessions where the circumstances are perfect, everyone can participate fully etc. then lots of managers who join mid-season get zero training sessions for weeks on end.

It's a minor gripe really so I've already posted too much about it. But sometimes it grates when you can see a bullshit media soundbyte start to be repeated as if it's realistic or factual.
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Yeah that’s fair enough. But the bottom line is, he hasn’t had enough time. Which is the message to take away. I guess I’ve learnt to filter out all the noise that comes with anything United related these days!
 
Plant0x84 said:
What the feck is he on about? If you fix the problem with the fish/aquarium then why would he get sick again when you put him back in?! And how does that relate to the coaches at United? :confused:
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I think he means if you fix the aquarium then put the sick fish back in?

Honestly he's a plonker, god knows. I thought his issue was Ten Hag, you know the coach.
 
Plant0x84 said:
What the feck is he on about? If you fix the problem with the fish/aquarium then why would he get sick again when you put him back in?! And how does that relate to the coaches at United? :confused:
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It's a metaphor. Ronaldo says that no matter what manager you put in at United football club, things will go wrong. This is because the club itself is a toxic environment and there is nothing wrong with some of the managers who have been here.
In doing so, Ronaldo points to the Glazers who are ultimately responsible for the football club's toxic environment.

No matter what fish/manager you get in the aquarium/club, things will go wrong as it is the aquarium/club that is the problem.

You can try to take the fish/manager out of the aquarium/club and replace it/him, but it will go wrong when the fish/manager is put back in the same aquarium/club
 
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