Rotherham child abuse scandal

Zarlak said:
There have been multiple gangs of white people that prey on vulnerable white girls. The fact that the ratio of people who do it to people that don't do it is so hugely in one favour, and the fact that when this kind of thing happens they are condemned by their own community, shows it's clearly not a cultural thing. Or do you think that their community comes out and condemns them and then goes home and says in private 'dunno what they're all complaining about, it's normal for us.'
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I think the cultural aspect is a discussion worth having. There's no getting around the fact that this case did concern predominantly Pakistani men.

This isn't something unique to Rotherham either, in both Rochdale and Oxford the abusers were Pakistani. Trying to brush it off as a coincidence does nobody any favours. You mention ratio's in your post, when people of Pakistani ethnicity make up only 2% of the British population - I think it's a fair concern that the ratio of sex abuse and trafficking involving Pakistani's seems to be far higher than 2%. It might not be but it certainly seems that way.

It doesn't make you bias or racist to ask these questions either which was unacceptably hinted at by someone else. Not you to be clear.

Redlambs said:
You are wrong on the integration aspect. It is a widespread issue that needs looking at, for whatever reason it happens.

And talking about cultural and religious differences in this situation is exactly what people should do, if we hide from it those who want to twist this can and will much more easily.
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Completely agree.
 
Wolverine said:
Fairly sweeping, again not saying it isn't there but as I have mentioned this whole praying on particular type of girls (vulnerable, white) seems to be part of the mentality of quite a few Pakistani British gang members as oppose to the "lot of misogyny" you speak of.

Again its all very difficult to quantify, I know there are problems within all south asian communities (Pakistani, Indian, Tamil, Bangladeshi) with regards to misogyny. The trouble is that there is a distinction that should be made with social conservatism (which in many ways is pretty abhorrent with regards to some of the views) and the type of misogyny that leads people to believe they have a right to rape white girls. The latter I just do not believe exists in the same magnitude as you suggest from knowing quite a lot of Pakistanis here.

However much it is it needs to be tackled and addressed I agree. But we have to be careful with what we say. Within Pakistani communities you have Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi, Ismaili, and within them there are socially conservative types and those who are more progressive. They lean as an aggregate if I was to guess towards social conservatism like I said but the kind that wouldn't be amiss in most south asian communities.

Sex trafficking and the types of crimes committed usually involve gangs. Gang mentality and gang culture certainly isn't encouraged en mass. Again I really really think hyperbole doesn't help here.

And also what you said about Pakistan I think is irrelevant. As I mentioned there are significant differences between Pakistani and Pakistani British cultures. A lot of the lads I know here have rarely spent much time in Pakistan other than the odd holiday. We have issues there (but again no more than many other developing countries). Its very different in Pakistan in different places. The differences for women, women's rights, women's safety in rural SWAT as opposed to Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad would be massively different. Again problems of rape, forced marriages all exist there but I find the whole paradigm of imported Pakistani misogyny simplistic.
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For what it's worth I don't think it's just the Asain community that's failing in regards to women's rights, but I also don't think it's worth mollycoddling the problem when there clearly is one. And it's not just social conservatism, when you consider the sexual repression of Asians (mostly women, the guys get away with it) and practices like forced marriage it's outright misogyny.

And I think what I said about Pakistan is very relevant. While most Pakistanis who live and grow up here integrate quite well there are sections of the community which don't and who live their lives as through they were in Pakistan and I don't think that's right.

Zarlak said:
Can you not see how that's entirely different to children? I can't help but think you're classing them as similar things.

Also your post is full of generalisations that are disproven by countless people. Can you not see that? I admitted my post was completely anecdotal, as is yours. You can't make the sweeping statements you're making. 'This particular breed of man sees it as his god given right to feck whoever he pleases when he pleases' only the fact upto millions of people don't act like this, proves that's bollocks. Just because some do, does not mean it's a wide spread fact.
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I just don't think there being so many cases of this very thing happening is coincidental. If I'm wrong about it being a cultural issue fair enough, but no ones offered a better explanation of why this is happening. I don't think I've claimed that my posts aren't full of generalizations, they obviously are. But I also think there's truth in those generalizations.
 
Silva said:
For what it's worth I don't think it's just the Asain community that's failing in regards to women's rights, but I also don't think it's worth mollycoddling the problem when there clearly is one. And it's not just social conservatism, when you consider the sexual repression of Asians (mostly women, the guys get away with it) and practices like forced marriage it's outright misogyny.

And I think what I said about Pakistan is very relevant. While most Pakistanis who live and grow up here integrate quite well there are sections of the community which don't and who live their lives as through they were in Pakistan and I don't think that's right.
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I agree, addressing the issue of misogyny as a whole should be done (LAD culture in universities, page 3, problems in minority communities), all should rightly be put under the microscope and be fair game for discussion and more importantly legal action if there is any instance of rape.

Most Pakistanis who grew up here (second or third gen youngsters now in the 20-30s bracket) hang around with only other Muslims (tends to be Bangladeshi-Pakistani-Somali), even at schools and universities which for many muslims and minorities in places where minorities have coalesced communities is our main form of interaction with people outside our community (other than in the workplace obviously), and with like minded types from their own communities. This is also linked to poverty, social isolation, unemployment and they are more likely to them joining gangs.

This isn't necessarily the case with immigrant Pakistanis, majority of whom come here to work and support their families (here and abroad) and to be less likely to be involved in gangs. Again not sure how much that is the case with gangs, only speaking from experience. Would be good to see some numbers that could illuminate these things because a lot of it does unfortunately sound like conjecture on both sides but I'd imagine social studies are scarce and inadequate on these issues. What's really sad is that young British muslims are more backwards than their parents' generation. I grew up in Pakistan for my early teens, we had music, inter-gender mixing, dance and the lot and was suprised to find the lads here so much more conservative, not something I thought I'd see.
 
Wolverine said:
I agree, addressing the issue of misogyny as a whole should be done (LAD culture in universities, page 3, problems in minority communities), all should rightly be put under the microscope and be fair game for discussion and more importantly legal action if there is any instance of rape.

Most Pakistanis who grew up here (second or third gen youngsters now in the 20-30s bracket) hang around with only other Muslims (tends to be Bangladeshi-Pakistani-Somali), even at schools and universities which for many muslims and minorities in places where minorities have coalesced communities is our main form of interaction with people outside our community (other than in the workplace obviously), and with like minded types from their own communities. This is also linked to poverty, social isolation, unemployment and they are more likely to them joining gangs.

This isn't necessarily the case with immigrant Pakistanis, majority of whom come here to work and support their families (here and abroad) and to be less likely to be involved in gangs. Again not sure how much that is the case with gangs, only speaking from experience. Would be good to see some numbers that could illuminate these things because a lot of it does unfortunately sound like conjecture on both sides but I'd imagine social studies are scarce and inadequate on these issues. What's really sad is that young British muslims are more backwards than their parents' generation. I grew up in Pakistan for my early teens, we had music, inter-gender mixing, dance and the lot and was suprised to find the lads here so much more conservative, not something I thought I'd see.
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Completely agree with you pal.

And I think it's because when people do go abroad they get very protective of their cultural identity and it becomes slightly accentuated. My little cousins growing up here tend to be taught a version of being Albanian that's slightly different to what being Albanian actually is, and a lot of the time it's a nastier version because they're not learning it where it actually exists and they completely miss the nuances.
 
Silva said:
I just don't think there being so many cases of this very thing happening is coincidental. If I'm wrong about it being a cultural issue fair enough, but no ones offered a better explanation of why this is happening. I don't think I've claimed that my posts aren't full of generalizations, they obviously are. But I also think there's truth in those generalizations.
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There aren't really that many cases of this very thing happening. That's one of the reasons why it's such a shock aside from the obvious sickness of the act. It's random and out of the blue. There are relatively few incidents of this happening if you look at it proportionately. Maybe the perception that this happens often is leading you to believe it's a problem with men of Pakistani origin, I don't know but really it's not common at all. It's no different to a white man doing it.

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing that life is horrible for some women in Pakistan, but IMO that's a completely separate issue that deserves its own discussion to child abuse which I imagine comes about from a completely different trigger.

Theon said:
I think the cultural aspect is a discussion worth having. There's no getting around the fact that this case did concern predominantly Pakistani men.

This isn't something unique to Rotherham either, in both Rochdale and Oxford the abusers were Pakistani. Trying to brush it off as a coincidence does nobody any favours. You mention ratio's in your post, when people of Pakistani ethnicity make up only 2% of the British population - I think it's a fair concern that the ratio of sex abuse and trafficking involving Pakistani's seems to be far higher than 2%. It might not be but it certainly seems that way.

It doesn't make you bias or racist to ask these questions either which was unacceptably hinted at by someone else. Not you to be clear.

Completely agree.
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There are over a million Pakistani people in the UK, and we have a case here of a few people. Even with the incidents in Rochdale and Heywood when I lived in Bury. Proportionately speaking, it's not common, a high number of cases, or anything of the sort. It's out of the blue and a shock, so let's not go saying that it's a cultural issue which implies the attitude would be rife across a million people, when we are speaking about isolated incidents involving a few people clearly of opposing views to their community. Nowhere in their culture does it say it's ok to touch kids, the objectification of women in Pakistan has nothing to do with child abuse in the UK. I'll happily concede that it's a separate discussion that merits its own looking into though.
 
Zarlak said:
There aren't really that many cases of this very thing happening. That's one of the reasons why it's such a shock aside from the obvious sickness of the act. It's random and out of the blue. There are relatively few incidents of this happening if you look at it proportionately. Maybe the perception that this happens often is leading you to believe it's a problem with men of Pakistani origin, I don't know but really it's not common at all. It's no different to a white man doing it.

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing that life is horrible for some women in Pakistan, but IMO that's a completely separate issue that deserves its own discussion to child abuse which I imagine comes about from a completely different trigger.
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4 so far is too many in my opinion. First one, okay I thought "just a bunch of sick bastards", the second one could have been a coincidence. But with a third and fourth it's too troubling and too much for it to be coincidental.
 
Silva said:
4 so far is too many in my opinion. First one, okay I thought "just a bunch of sick bastards", the second one could have been a coincidence. But with a third and fourth it's too troubling and too much for it to be coincidental.
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Of course it is, I don't disagree with you on the first part of your post. But four people out of 1 million is relatively speaking nothing. Certainly not anywhere near enough to say it was a cultural issue. Even 100 people out of 1 million is still far too insignificant a number to say it was a cultural issue. That's why I disagree so much with you blanket stating it's a cultural issue. It implies that it's a viewpoint held commonly across everybody.

That doesn't take away from how wrong it is, or that it should never have happened. But let's say it's down to something that involves a million other people who don't agree with what happened. That's pretty much the opposite.
 
Zarlak said:
Of course it is, I don't disagree with you on the first part of your post. But four people out of 1 million is relatively speaking nothing. Certainly not anywhere near enough to say it was a cultural issue. Even 100 people out of 1 million is still far too insignificant a number to say it was a cultural issue. That's why I disagree so much with you blanket stating it's a cultural issue. It implies that it's a viewpoint held commonly across everybody.

That doesn't take away from how wrong it is, or that it should never have happened. But let's say it's down to something that involves a million other people who don't agree with what happened. That's pretty much the opposite.
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I've said many times in this thread that it's not to do with all of them, but that the collective views of women contribute. In the same way that the collective views of women in Eastern Europe lead to trafficking and prostitution (often in slave-like conditions, with rape being common) by Eastern European men that is disproportionate to others. In the same way that the collective views of women in a lot of other communities and countries lead to women being abused. And it's not four people, it's four gangs who have raped thousands of girls, a minority, sure, but a minority is still too much.
 
Zarlak said:
There aren't really that many cases of this very thing happening. That's one of the reasons why it's such a shock aside from the obvious sickness of the act. It's random and out of the blue. There are relatively few incidents of this happening if you look at it proportionately. Maybe the perception that this happens often is leading you to believe it's a problem with men of Pakistani origin, I don't know but really it's not common at all. It's no different to a white man doing it.

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing that life is horrible for some women in Pakistan, but IMO that's a completely separate issue that deserves its own discussion to child abuse which I imagine comes about from a completely different trigger.



There are over a million Pakistani people in the UK, and we have a case here of a few people. Even with the incidents in Rochdale and Heywood when I lived in Bury. Proportionately speaking, it's not common, a high number of cases, or anything of the sort. It's out of the blue and a shock, so let's not go saying that it's a cultural issue which implies the attitude would be rife across a million people, when we are speaking about isolated incidents involving a few people clearly of opposing views to their community. Nowhere in their culture does it say it's ok to touch kids, the objectification of women in Pakistan has nothing to do with child abuse in the UK. I'll happily concede that it's a separate discussion that merits its own looking into though.
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Not sure if this is that clear cut to be honest. The mindset of 'they are not like me therefore it is acceptable to treat them in an inferior nature' is a learned behaviour and once you find it possible to switch off your compassion to one group that becomes a 'skill' you can readily transport to other groups as your mind sees fit. Clearly the Rotheram case is an extreme example of this and the majority of misogynists will not also go on to become child sex offenders, but the lack of empathy or compassion is the common denominator and this group's lack of respect for women and girls most likely was a factor in their willingness to commit these crimes.
 
Zarlak said:
I asked you to explain how exactly religion fits into this, which you don't seem to want to do. Talking about religion here is no different to talking about how Weetabix is to blame, since religion does not tell you to touch kids. It shouldn't need talking about to discover, it should be common sense.

I could subscribe to the view that it was cultural, if the fact that nobody else over here behaves like that doesn't instantly disprove it. If these people were raised over there with these beliefs and then came to the UK and carried them out then fair play, I could agree. But that's not what happened it seems.
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And yet again you are missing the point of what I'm saying entirely. Completely and utterly.
 
I would hazard a guess that religion could be involved in a small way. Most religious people I have met in England, and every one in Japan (usually mormons), have been very smug and feel they are somehow better than everyone else. Their ticket to Heaven is booked already.
It seems these guys view western women as inferior and their religion may have taught them that. I'm in no way trying to make excuses for them. They are just as evil as Savile and his cohorts. Strange that most of those guys are also God fearing.
 
Zarlak said:
I don't think you have a point, since I've asked you to explain it twice and you don't seem to want to.
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You are the one charging into a thread with an attitude, and your last question is entirely irrelevant since I'm not saying Religion is involved. It's pointless talking to you on this as you seem incapable for whatever reason to read a post despite me twice now telling you you have what I've been saying wrong.

Ironically you are enforcing the need for my original point, so thanks for that.
 
In fact Z, you actually appear to agree with me that this shouldn't be made about religion.

Again the point is though that it has and will continue to be so, so the best thing is for people to talk and air those fears and have them calmed. You can't come in and tell people not to talk about these things when they are leading to constructive dialogue, that is exactly what I said at the start of this thread and that is what the actual cop out is. Simplifying a complex situation.
 
Well the EDL have arrived in Rotherham and they are demonstrating outside Rotherham police station with the objective of forcing Shaun Wright to resign. I get the impression that this isn't going to end well.
 
Reg: that Guardian article. The concept of "shame" upon the family that exists in most minority communities is one of the most pernicious things on the planet. Always have had a difficult time explaining it to my white friends. We've agreed though that cultural relativism is mostly bullshit. Things have to change, ideas and mentality changes though can only happen within communities, which will take time. The law and common society though shouldn't have to wait for us to progress. I was glad to see in many cases there being proaction on FGM, forced marriages etc but this whole scandal suggests we have a while to go. Incredibly brave of Ruzwana Bashir to come out and say it. Incidentally, these kind of things are talked about quite a bit within communities, even brought up in sermons in mosques, we have many imams who are speaking out against difficult issues in a way that I think is pretty progressive but its the attitudes of many that is a tough nut to crack. Rhetoric is one thing.
 
Wolverine said:
Reg: that Guardian article. The concept of "shame" upon the family that exists in most minority communities is one of the most pernicious things on the planet. Always have had a difficult time explaining it to my white friends. We've agreed though that cultural relativism is mostly bullshit. Things have to change, ideas and mentality changes though can only happen within communities, which will take time. The law and common society though shouldn't have to wait for us to progress. I was glad to see in many cases there being proaction on FGM, forced marriages etc but this whole scandal suggests we have a while to go. Incredibly brave of Ruzwana Bashir to come out and say it. Incidentally, these kind of things are talked about quite a bit within communities, even brought up in sermons in mosques, we have many imams who are speaking out against difficult issues in a way that I think is pretty progressive but its the attitudes of many that is a tough nut to crack. Rhetoric is one thing.
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A wonderful post. I agree with every word.
 
Much has been made about the religious background of the offenders. It's ignorance in the extreme to connect religion with what has happened. Religion does not condone or promote these vile acts. If the perpetrators had any concern of religion or practised their faith, abuse of vulnerable girls would, and should never enter their minds.

My concern is much of the media has focused on how men of mostly Pakistani descent have abused vulnerable white girls. I have a feeling exploitation of Asian girls will have no doubt occurred but not reported by the girl or the family due to deeply held cultural taboos.
 
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Sultan said:
Much has been made about the religious background of the offenders. It's ignorance in the extreme to connect religion with what has happened. Religion does not condone or promote these vile acts. If the perpetrators had any concern of religion or practised their faith, abuse of vulnerable girls would, and should never enter their minds.

My concern is much of the media has focused on how men of mostly Pakistani descent have abused vulnerable white girls. I have a feeling exploitation of Asian girls will have no doubt occurred but not reported by the girl or the family due to deeply held cultural taboos.
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So true, but one can't really bring it up without hurting the girls or families.
The important thing is to focus on these perpetrators as perpetrators -- ethinicity be damned, and to help the girls and their families.
 
Sultan said:
Much has been made about the religious background of the offenders. It's ignorance in the extreme to connect religion with what has happened. Religion does not condone or promote these vile acts. If the perpetrators had any concern of religion or practised their faith, abuse of vulnerable girls would, and should never enter their minds.

My concern is much of the media has focused on how men of mostly Pakistani descent have abused vulnerable white girls. I have a feeling exploitation of Asian girls will have no doubt occurred but not reported by the girl or the family due to deeply held cultural taboos.
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I'm not too sure, it's certainly not ignorance in the extreme think these men might use religion as an excuse. It certainly is ignorance to think any real religion would promote such acts though.

As for the issue of the targets, these men seem to usually target white girls specifically because of how they see them. I agree with you that others might have been targetted though, because when strip it down to it's basic level it's paedophilles and sex offenders doing what they do. It's shocking all round this situation, feck skin colour and culture, what's wrong is wrong. I read today that one of the ringleaders was already done for this and served a year. A year! Now he's moving abroad freely.

That's what's really wrong here, none of these scumbags will serve a proper sentance and the wankers who let them get away with it will go on as if nothing has happened. It's all wrong and shit and nothing will change.
 
Redlambs said:
As for the issue of the targets, these men seem to usually target white girls specifically because of how they see them.

I agree with you that others might have been targetted though, because when strip it down to it's basic level it's paedophilles and sex offenders doing what they do. It's shocking all round this situation, feck skin colour and culture, what's wrong is wrong.
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Many Asian girls too, especially with no father or cousins, or from troubled families. They're also regarded as 'dirty' and 'easy targets'. I know you know, just had to say it again. They're totally lost, those girls. The evil of these bastard -- I have no words! Hate!
 
Religion and a strong basis in religion for many in our community here in my experience can be (and usually is) a tangible deterrent which keeps Muslim kids away from gangs and violence. Its not as simple as "pakistani + religious + socially conservative/misogynist views = potential rapist of white girls". A bigger factor was in my opinion poverty, gang culture, lack of oversight/guidance from parents.

What is a different dimension to this is the fact that the victims were allegedly young and white. The "easy meat" thing might extend to their age, vulnerability (socioeconomic status etc) as much as race. As mentioned we don't know how many of these guys abused girls in their own families/communities. It may be that seeing girls as "white" as subhuman was a factor in their sick mentality. It probably was to an extent.

What are the more pertinent questions I feel here is how much cohesive effort there was from community members to pressure authorities into not investigating crimes, how much exactly was known from family members/social services/police who did nothing and whether that amounts to criminal negligence. How effective is our legal system in handling and investigating complaints of sexual assaults?

We will not get anywhere if we allow the likes of EDL/Britain first to frame the debate on this, nor will be achieve anything if minority communities and their leader figures are too scared to speak up and be vociferous about this and actively join the police in exposing unlawful practices within their communities, without hiding behind the banner of cultural sensitivities/relativism.

Incidentally one counter-extremism thinkthank called Quilliam which was supported before by the government but has very little sympathy/credibility within the Muslim community for parroting the government's line way too much for their liking so perhaps an arms length approach might be prudent when dealing with minority communities. It's a fine line. No easy solutions though I can tell you.
 
Wolverine said:
Religion and a strong basis in religion for many in our community here in my experience can be (and usually is) a tangible deterrent which keeps Muslim kids away from gangs and violence. Its not as simple as "pakistani + religious + socially conservative/misogynist views = potential rapist of white girls". A bigger factor was in my opinion poverty, gang culture, lack of oversight/guidance from parents.

What is a different dimension to this is the fact that the victims were allegedly young and white. The "easy meat" thing might extend to their age, vulnerability (socioeconomic status etc) as much as race. As mentioned we don't know how many of these guys abused girls in their own families/communities. It may be that seeing girls as "white" as subhuman was a factor in their sick mentality. It probably was to an extent.

What are the more pertinent questions I feel here is how much cohesive effort there was from community members to pressure authorities into not investigating crimes, how much exactly was known from family members/social services/police who did nothing and whether that amounts to criminal negligence. How effective is our legal system in handling and investigating complaints of sexual assaults?

We will not get anywhere if we allow the likes of EDL/Britain first to frame the debate on this, nor will be achieve anything if minority communities and their leader figures are too scared to speak up and be vociferous about this and actively join the police in exposing unlawful practices within their communities, without hiding behind the banner of cultural sensitivities/relativism.

Incidentally one counter-extremism thinkthank called Quilliam which was supported before by the government but has very little sympathy/credibility within the Muslim community for parroting the government's line way too much for their liking so perhaps an arms length approach might be prudent when dealing with minority communities. It's a fine line. No easy solutions though I can tell you.
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I agree, especially the idea of taking charge of the communication and not allowing the likes of EDL and BNP to, that's what I've been saying all along.

However one thing I want to point out, that it isn't minorities alone who are scared to speak up. In fact, for example, in my line of work often I'm the minority and yet it's deemed that if anything happens I could still be the racist one.

That's a huge point people tend to miss, the fear isn't exclusively the domain of so called minorities, it's now all over and that's what's pushing tensions higher. The frustration of being an outsider in your own country affects so many people born here, no matter the race or religion, and it's ridiculous to think in this day and age this is the case.

Back to this subject, I completely agree that it needs to be treated as horrible scum doing horrible things and being punished for those (although we already know at least one of the ringleaders has been let off very lightly), and also those who turned a blind eye need real punishments too. But I will say again that the fear of racism being used as a weapon is very real at all levels, it's not an excuse for those higher up, but as a white employer of multicultural people I can tell you there's a lot of things I have to be worried about and I know lower level employees in most (if not all) government departments are always on edge.

The whole thing is wrong, but sadly I can't see it being changed. Politics just doesn't care, those who can really change things are so worried about losing one vote or another that there's no desire to really bring everyone back together.
 
Good post Redlambs. With regards to 'Politics just doesn't care' though, unfortunately there are dangerous people in politics who will play on people's concerns, and use them to further their own nasty aims. The major parties need to listen to what people actually think a bit more, and act accordingly, because if they don't there are others that will.
 
The racism aspect here cant be underplayed, its a huge fecking problem we have in this country with not wanting to appear to be seen as racist, legally and in society, even when it has nothing to do with a situation.

1 of my parents works reasonably high up in a NHS hospital, and there's a situation(while keeping the details vague) where a black nurse basically isn't doing her job properly, blagging loads of time off work, taking tons of benefits etc, just completely gaming the profession to her advantage to the point where her collogues are having to do part of her workload at all times. now there's basically nothing that can be done about her because taking action beyond "talking with her about it" would be seen as racist and she could take the NHS to court and cause a bugger ton more problems, the whole things pathetic.

Just a small example but i'm sure similar incidents happens in tons of professions in loads of different contexts.

As a multicultural society, which like it or not we are in Britain, In these situations regarding mainly asian immigrants from muslim backgrounds, there has to be larger emphasis on the community already based in an area to integrate them into the correct mindset, its seriously frustrating we are at a point whereby we have fundamentalist youths and people with absolutely no regard for the wider community getting a license to commit aweful crimes hidden under a veil of Equality. i stress this is a extreme minority however, but large enough to become a social issue.
 
Oo0AahCantona said:
The racism aspect here cant be underplayed, its a huge fecking problem we have in this country with not wanting to appear to be seen as racist, legally and in society, even when it has nothing to do with a situation.

1 of my parents works reasonably high up in a NHS hospital, and there's a situation(while keeping the details vague) where a black nurse basically isn't doing her job properly, blagging loads of time off work, taking tons of benefits etc, just completely gaming the profession to her advantage to the point where her collogues are having to do part of her workload at all times. now there's basically nothing that can be done about her because taking action beyond "talking with her about it" would be seen as racist and she could take the NHS to court and cause a bugger ton more problems, the whole things pathetic.

Just a small example but i'm sure similar incidents happens in tons of professions in loads of different contexts.

As a multicultural society, which like it or not we are in Britain, In these situations regarding mainly asian immigrants from muslim backgrounds, there has to be larger emphasis on the community already based in an area to integrate them into the correct mindset, its seriously frustrating we are at a point whereby we have fundamentalist youths and people with absolutely no regard for the wider community getting a license to commit aweful crimes hidden under a veil of Equality. i stress this is a extreme minority however, but large enough to become a social issue.
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["the costly toll of lives ruined in Rotherham because of worry over being accused of “racism” is only a tiny fraction of the price the world’s innocent pay for political correctness regarding Islam", say experts]
 
Funny also, how English media consistently write "Asian" gangs when it is clearly about Muslim-Pakistani gangs.

In my country when you say Asian there is really only one part coming up into one's mind and that is: Far-East Asians like Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese etc. Pakistanis and Indians aren't really ever referred to Asian in The Netherlands.

To me this "Asian" label is very misleading and actually very racist of those newspapers to lump all the other Asians into one pile. Political correctness and racism at the same time. Well done!

Oh well, anything that "disconnects" Islam from atrocities within the UK should be used I suppose!
 
Essaux said:
Funny also, how English media consistently write "Asian" gangs when it is clearly about Muslim-Pakistani gangs.

In my country when you say Asian there is really only one part coming up into one's mind and that is: Far-East Asians like Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese etc. Pakistanis and Indians aren't really ever referred to Asian in The Netherlands.

To me this "Asian" label is very misleading and actually very racist of those newspapers to lump all the other Asians into one pile. Political correctness and racism at the same time. Well done!

Oh well, anything that "disconnects" Islam from atrocities within the UK should be used I suppose!
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I don't think this problem has anything to do with religion.
 
Essaux said:
Funny also, how English media consistently write "Asian" gangs when it is clearly about Muslim-Pakistani gangs.

In my country when you say Asian there is really only one part coming up into one's mind and that is: Far-East Asians like Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese etc. Pakistanis and Indians aren't really ever referred to Asian in The Netherlands.

To me this "Asian" label is very misleading and actually very racist of those newspapers to lump all the other Asians into one pile. Political correctness and racism at the same time. Well done!

Oh well, anything that "disconnects" Islam from atrocities within the UK should be used I suppose!
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But it isn't bigoted to lump all the Muslim-Pakistanis into one pile? You're just making the pile smaller, it's still a generalisation.
 
Essaux said:
Funny also, how English media consistently write "Asian" gangs when it is clearly about Muslim-Pakistani gangs.

In my country when you say Asian there is really only one part coming up into one's mind and that is: Far-East Asians like Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese etc. Pakistanis and Indians aren't really ever referred to Asian in The Netherlands.

To me this "Asian" label is very misleading and actually very racist of those newspapers to lump all the other Asians into one pile. Political correctness and racism at the same time. Well done!

Oh well, anything that "disconnects" Islam from atrocities within the UK should be used I suppose!
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Irony much in your post.
 
Essaux said:
Certainly has, in the very least partially. Please check the following verses: cf. Qur’an 4:3, 4:24, 23:1-6, 33:50 - amongst others - and determine for yourself whether religion might play a role in their behaviour.
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These idiots have probably never read the verses you are referring to. They were born into Muslim families, that's about it.
 
Sultan said:
Irony much in your post.
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See below, thanks.

Essaux said:
Certainly has, in the very least partially. Please check the following verses: cf. Qur’an 4:3, 4:24, 23:1-6, 33:50 - amongst others - and determine for yourself whether religion might play a role in their behaviour.
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Essaux said:
Hmm. Your analogy is a bit strange.

Since the accused are of Pakistani origin and Muslim, it would be fair to label the rape gang as: Muslim-Pakistani rather than as "Asian".
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iBoss said:
These idiots have probably never read the verses you are referring to. They were born into Muslim families, that's about it.
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There are many ways these idiots get their information, ratification and justification from. An imam, their surroundings and thus most certainly their culture (which their religion is a part of) all play a role in their behaviour.
 
Essaux said:
Hmm. Your analogy is a bit strange.

Since the accused are of Pakistani origin and Muslim, it would be fair to label the rape gang as: Muslim-Pakistani rather than as "Asian".
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Why does Pakistani have to be prefaced by Muslim ...like "Muslim-Pakistani"?
Thats like saying Hindu-Indians or Jewish-Israelis.

If they are all Pakistani then I'm not sure what calling them Muslim would do.
 
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