Rotherham child abuse scandal

[Wolverine]

I'm not so sure but we won't ever know either way now.


Just as a matter of interest do you think these organisations just invented the pressure they felt or would you allow that there could well have been real cause for their reticence? Not justification for everything that happened but never the less. I guess I’m asking what you think about how misplaced their view of the Pakistani community is and how that view might have come into being?


(Their being the organisations in question)

There obviously was pressure, I just think it was perceived to be a lot bigger than it was. Our communities has to do deal with plenty of things post-9/11, enhanced spotlight on very many issues. Like I said though, what you hear is the voice of a few who can be very loud. I know tons of people who don't partake in protests or politics because they oppose what some are saying. Many, frankly, are apathetic and not really concerned too much with community politics. I simply don't know to what extent the vociferousness of said communities is a factor is in, and opposed to laziness and incompetence, it is probably a mixture of both.

I have to concede the point, there are very many different sub-communities around the UK. What I learnt about what was happening in the governance of those schools in Birmingham and now in Rotherham suggests there to be a tangible problem that should be looked it and tackled. Engaging communities is the best way, more needs to be done on our end absolutely. BBC Asian Network morning phone in show revealed some abhorrent things, how some Pakistani councillors in Rotherham actively blocked investigations. Completely unacceptable, and in my opinion should be illegal. Their ethnicity shouldn't be a taboo precluding prosecution for the police.

Anyone complicit in cover up who had active knowledge of what went on should be in jail.

 

[Jippy]

Part of the solution is for the community to learn to police itself to follow laws and cultural norms, and not tolerate crime and anti-social behaviour. How many of the local police, teachers and social workers are Pakistani?

What also helps is more heterogeneous communities. Uniracial poor neighbourhoods are dysfunctional.

Self-policing has such a history of success be it local communities never sheltering their own or big business not colluding to rip off customers.

 

[Jippy]

There obviously was pressure, I just think it was perceived to be a lot bigger than it was. Our communities has to do deal with plenty of things post-9/11, enhanced spotlight on very many issues. Like I said though, what you hear is the voice of a few who can be very loud. I know tons of people who don't partake in protests or politics because they oppose what some are saying. Many, frankly, are apathetic and not really concerned too much with community politics. I simply don't know to what extent the vociferousness of said communities is a factor is in, and opposed to laziness and incompetence, it is probably a mixture of both.

I have to concede the point, there are very many different sub-communities around the UK. What I learnt about what was happening in the governance of those schools in Birmingham and now in Rotherham suggests there to be a tangible problem that should be looked it and tackled. Engaging communities is the best way, more needs to be done on our end absolutely. BBC Asian Network morning phone in show revealed some abhorrent things, how some Pakistani councillors in Rotherham actively blocked investigations. Completely unacceptable, and in my opinion should be illegal. Their ethnicity shouldn't be a taboo precluding prosecution for the police.

Anyone complicit in cover up who had active knowledge of what went on should be in jail.

Great insight and put forward in a very balanced and articulate way. I notice two of our leftist friends have had no comment on your posts after challenging the views, somewhat aggressively at times, of several others in this thread.

 

[Redlambs]

Great insight and put forward in a very balanced and articulate way. I notice two of our leftist friends have had no comment on your posts after challenging the views, somewhat aggressively at times, of several others in this thread.

Is this necessary?

I don't see much aggression here, maybe you could point this out without resorting to more political nonsense that will further alienate people.

 

[Redlambs]

There obviously was pressure, I just think it was perceived to be a lot bigger than it was. Our communities has to do deal with plenty of things post-9/11, enhanced spotlight on very many issues. Like I said though, what you hear is the voice of a few who can be very loud. I know tons of people who don't partake in protests or politics because they oppose what some are saying. Many, frankly, are apathetic and not really concerned too much with community politics. I simply don't know to what extent the vociferousness of said communities is a factor is in, and opposed to laziness and incompetence, it is probably a mixture of both.

I have to concede the point, there are very many different sub-communities around the UK. What I learnt about what was happening in the governance of those schools in Birmingham and now in Rotherham suggests there to be a tangible problem that should be looked it and tackled. Engaging communities is the best way, more needs to be done on our end absolutely. BBC Asian Network morning phone in show revealed some abhorrent things, how some Pakistani councillors in Rotherham actively blocked investigations. Completely unacceptable, and in my opinion should be illegal. Their ethnicity shouldn't be a taboo precluding prosecution for the police.

Anyone complicit in cover up who had active knowledge of what went on should be in jail.

I agree with most of this, however I think the pressure is actually bigger than you think. That doesn't necessarily mean it's coming directly from those in question, it could be coming from spineless cretins who only are concerned about furthering themselves.

Maybe it's a bit of both, some people fail to want to integrate and actually want to take over in one way or another, whilst others want to pretend the issue is bigger than it is so avoid dealing with it for the sake of their own jobs and career.

Fact is, I have no doubt some people involved in this were genuinely scared and some were deliberately hiding the truth. All should be accountable though, because I bet those poor little girls couldn't care less about religion or culture or skin colour right now. They deserve better than this and nothing else matters more right now than stopping this sort of disgusting thing regardless who carries it out.

 

[Jippy]

Is this necessary?

I don't see much aggression here, maybe you could point this out without resorting to more political nonsense that will further alienate people.

Wasn't aimed at you. You can argue a point without calling people an idiot.

 

[Silva]

Wasn't aimed at you. You can argue a point without calling people an idiot.

I don't think Wolverine's posts change much of what I said before I went to bed. The Pakistani community (not uniquely) has greater levels of misogyny among them compared to the the British that lead to shit like this happening. It's like how Eastern Europeans have a bad wrap for human trafficking and prostitution, the overwhelming majority of us don't do it and are appalled by it, but it doesn't stop us from being disproportionately involved.

We actually had a case like this in Oxford just last year where the perpetrators were all Muslim men and the victims all white women. It's too much of a coincidence for this not to be born out of cultural backwardness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang

Shutting our eyes and ears and saying "Well, the overwhelming majority are lovely" is pointless. We know that, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't challenge the unworkable ideas people bring with them, because it's dangerous. Not just for the British girls getting violently raped but also for their own daughters who are often forced into arranged marriage and a lifetime of rape. The attitude towards women in the Pakistani community isn't in the 21st century yet.

 

[Red_toad]

How do you know it's more prevalent anywhere? Hearing about it in the news isn't proof of anything other than what editors deem newsworthy.

There are no highwaymen in the UK anymore, but that's not a cultural thing.

I used to work with lots of African's the shit they told me is very unpleasant!

Highway man was probably cultural at the time, much like drug dealer is now!

 

[Silva]

Except the British and I assume you mean white british have more progressive views. That didn't stop Jimmy 'the molesting machine' Savile or his BBC chums covering up the stuff did it?

You make the point that the wider community has to help tackle the problem of misogyny in the Muslim and specifically British Pakistani community. I agree, except that can be done with tact. Not BNP style (not that I'm accusing you of it) rhetoric about taming the big bad bearded Pashtun.

Nothing to do with color, culturally British brown and black people are the same as culturally British white people and a lot more progressive than white Eastern Europeans, for example. The culture of misogyny has nothing to do with color and everything to do with a lack of education.

And while the Savile's are also unthinkably sick, I don't think they're discriminatory in the way these particular gangs are.

 

[Silva]

Perhaps it also has a lot to do with the fact that plenty of immigrants come from very disturbed backgrounds where crime is rife. Take the Sikh community, they probably have a good rep in the UK. They also have a sex ratio of 900 odd per 1000 back home in India. Now the correlation between such an alarming stat and misogyny has been established before. So why is it that you don't see Sikhs being called out as "culturally dangerous". That's because the Sikhs you get in Britain are overwhelmingly Upper middle class or Upper class who do in fact have more evolved views. The problem is more class and socio economic based than anything else.

I don't think it's just because they come from places where crime is rife. I was born in a beautiful Albanian village with low levels of crime and the treatment of women there is still utterly appalling because the culture allows for it. Just as it does in all nice places where cultural misogyny exists. Can't say I know anything about the Sikh community to be honest. I've only ever met one and he was just a hairy British guy. I'm not understanding that stat at all, care to elaborate?

Class does come into it, people with money tend to give their kids quite good educations. Doesn't mean there aren't cultural problems being imported into the UK, which can be countered by a good education.

 

[Silva]

These kids have also been completely failed by society at large. We should be protecting children better.

 

[oates]

It's difficult to know what to say as someone who works with children just how badly I feel that colleagues in this country have let them down and yet along with the conviction of the perpetrators I wholeheartedly condemn everyone who shied away from, ignored what was going on, and indeed through inaction aided and abetted and look forward not to them just losing their jobs, because that would be to get off very lightly, but to be brought up on criminal charges themselves. When I know just how much effort it has taken to turn around just a few lives that most of us couldn't even imagine, the scale of what must come to help all of these children seems mountainous.

 

[Wolverine]

I agree with most of this, however I think the pressure is actually bigger than you think. That doesn't necessarily mean it's coming directly from those in question, it could be coming from spineless cretins who only are concerned about furthering themselves.

Maybe it's a bit of both, some people fail to want to integrate and actually want to take over in one way or another, whilst others want to pretend the issue is bigger than it is so avoid dealing with it for the sake of their own jobs and career.

Fact is, I have no doubt some people involved in this were genuinely scared and some were deliberately hiding the truth. All should be accountable though, because I bet those poor little girls couldn't care less about religion or culture or skin colour right now. They deserve better than this and nothing else matters more right now than stopping this sort of disgusting thing regardless who carries it out.

However big the pressure was, the institutions charged with protecting kids, social services...the police etc should be beyond that. They should not fear bearing the brunt of abrasive community members and a couple of Guardian op-ed writers if they can provide evidence of wrong doing regardless of who is committing them.

I do feel like this "we didn't do this because of PC culture" and "community cohesion" excuse is being used partially as a convenient crutch by a lot of clearly incompetent and negligent bunch of people. There are definitely governance issues (related to school curriculum), building of night clubs within or near conservative communities, combating racist parties that get a more widespread political pressure from within a lot of south asian communities in areas in which they are prevalent.

There probably was a lot of it in Rotherham, but we need stronger institutions to be above this. The Mail, the Sun are spinning this as a result of PC culture, it isn't. PC culture from leftists fights against "rape culture" more than anything. Look at the reactions of the communities,

I'm not sure what exactly the police there were thinking. Look at the reaction of pakistani, islamic institutions after the report came out. All are appalled. These rapists should have been reported, tried and faced prosecution. And it would have happened without the city burning down. The vast majority of the types of guys that are in gangs cause trouble in mosques, community gatherings and make our streets less safe. Within the south london community in Tooting, Wimbledon we had quite a bit of problem with them (and still do). Myself and a bunch of students from a university I went to here formed Student Action for refugees (STAR) which helped pakistani (but mainly) somali kids from impoverished households with homework etc after school. A lot of work was also done with Merton council and police force to tackle problems of gangs within the area. Like I said there are many who would oppose these kind of overtures but I can safely say if anyone from my community was charged with probable cause for rape, I certainly think it would be a hard sell to get organised community action on their behalf.

I do hope considering the scale of this, we can identify more attackers who commited these terrible crimes and the police can see for themself that the exposure of this hasn't resulted in some terrible blight that has engulfed the Pakistani communities but instead outrage (with admittedly a bit of defensiveness) and the vast vast majority would support getting sex-trafficking, woman-raping thugs off our streets regardless of the fact that we have similar levels of melanin.

Just another thing to add to many here. A lot of the kids involved in gangs here have a completely different culture, subculture and mentality to Pakistani kids, and teenagers. The vast majority of them (second of third generation) have never even been there. Pakistani Muslims in Britain tend to be more socially conservative and religious than those in Pakistan. To say there misogyny is being imported from Pakistan is inaccurate, lazy and orientalist. Pakistan certainly has a lot of issues (with misogyny, religious extremism) but the issues of Pakistani muslims are separate and unique.

I have been thinking a lot about what you said about being scared to say some of the stuff you have said around people and the tone and manner in which you have spoken in here should be encouraged. It is exactly the sort of frank (but respectful) dialogue we need. A lot of our population consumes talking points on a daily basis and we have to be flexible in reconsidering some of them, face reality (even if it uncomfortable) and reevaluate some of our axiomatic beliefs with these sort of touchy issues, what this abuse shows is that not doing so clearly has had and might still disastrous consequences.

 

[Zarlak]

These lot are not comparabe with white nonces in my opinion. This is a cultural issue full stop. The sooner people accept that, the sooner it may be eradicated.

Wtf is this? This is a disgraceful post.

 

[Zarlak]

Is the cultural discussion even relevant here? This didn't happen in Pakistan. Unless I just haven't seen it, no report on this subject has mentioned asylum seekers or illegal immigrants coming here with backwards views, this is as far as I could see, about English people of a different descent.

 

[Shamwow]

One thing I'm never sure of when the discussion in a case like this centers around a certain ethnicity/culture...

Let's suppose the people saying that are correct. What do we do next?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Is the cultural discussion even relevant here? This didn't happen in Pakistan. Unless I just haven't seen it, no report on this subject has mentioned asylum seekers or illegal immigrants coming here with backwards views, this is as far as I could see, about English people of a different descent.

From what I understand Dans point was about the people from Pakistani community (I think, though he does not mention) not integrating well with the community, but rather getting more extremist and backward in their views. He alludes to the journalist beheading by the british jihadi and this case as probable cause for a more widespread peoblem in that community.

 

[crappycraperson]

I don't think it's just because they come from places where crime is rife. I was born in a beautiful Albanian village with low levels of crime and the treatment of women there is still utterly appalling because the culture allows for it. Just as it does in all nice places where cultural misogyny exists. Can't say I know anything about the Sikh community to be honest. I've only ever met one and he was just a hairy British guy. I'm not understanding that stat at all, care to elaborate?

Class does come into it, people with money tend to give their kids quite good educations. Doesn't mean there aren't cultural problems being imported into the UK, which can be countered by a good education.

Due to the preference of Boy child in India, a lot of potential girl babies are aborted in India. Hence why it is crime to reveal sex of the baby at any stage of the pregnancy. This practice is more rife in poor Punjabi communities.

 

[Silva]

Is the cultural discussion even relevant here? This didn't happen in Pakistan. Unless I just haven't seen it, no report on this subject has mentioned asylum seekers or illegal immigrants coming here with backwards views, this is as far as I could see, about English people of a different descent.

I think it is. When you hear stories of village elders sentencing girls in Pakistan to rape for having the audacity to talk to a boy they're not related to and you consider how widespread forced marriages are in that community it's difficult to outright ignore the cultural aspect. Brushing off their attitudes to women as 'socially conservative' won't do in my opinion, there are incredible levels of misogyny there. This isn't even the first case of such a gang in the UK, so it's hardly an anomaly. And while there are also pedophile rings consisting of white Brits, they don't target kids of any particular ethnicity.

Due to the preference of Boy child in India, a lot of potential girl babies are aborted in India. Hence why it is crime to reveal sex of the baby at any stage of the pregnancy. This practice is more rife in poor Punjabi communities.

Ah. That's really fecked up. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Zarlak]

From what I understand Dans point was about the people from Pakistani community (I think, though he does not mention) not integrating well with the community, but rather getting more extremist and backward in their views. He alludes to the journalist beheading by the british jihadi and this case as probable cause for a more widespread peoblem in that community.

If the people were born in England and raised in the West for 20 years then these arguments IMO are completely irrelevant.

You can't fail to integrate into something you don't need to integrate into. The British journalist being beheaded by the British jihadi isn't the social or cultural norm and has been condemned by their own community which is why I don't see the relevance in a comparison.

The argument would only make the slightest bit of sense IMO if these people were brought up for 20 years with these values and then came to the UK and went about their business. Otherwise these values thousands of miles away that they weren't raised with are irrelevant.

 

[Silva]

If the people were born in England and raised in the West for 20 years then these arguments IMO are completely irrelevant.

You can't fail to integrate into something you don't need to integrate into. The British journalist being beheaded by the British jihadi isn't the social or cultural norm and has been condemned by their own community which is why I don't see the relevance in a comparison.

The argument would only make the slightest bit of sense IMO if these people were brought up for 20 years with these values and then came to the UK and went about their business. Otherwise these values thousands of miles away that they weren't raised with are irrelevant.

The people around them would have also had an impact into these guys behaviors and opinions. I.e, family and community they interact with, many of which did grow up in Pakistan.

 

[Zarlak]

The people around them would have also had an impact into these guys behaviors and opinions. I.e, family and community they interact with, many of which did grow up in Pakistan.

Sure, until he went outside. I don't think you can put so much emphasis on it. It seems like a really weak way to find blame without having to actually put effort into finding out what caused it. 'oh it's because it's the norm halfway across the world where he wasn't born or lived'

He'd still be subjected to Western culture every day of his life unless he lives in a cupboard and never leaves.

Someone even mentioned before' because their religion allows it' I mean Christ, what does religion have to do with this. This thread smacks of 'bad asians' in parts when this is a problem with people. English people unless I'm mistaken which I could well be admittedly.

 

[Silva]

Sure, until he went outside. I don't think you can put so much emphasis on it. It seems like a really weak way to find blame without having to actually put effort into finding out what caused it. 'oh it's because it's the norm halfway across the world where he wasn't born or lived'

He'd still be subjected to Western culture every day of his life unless he lives in a cupboard and never leaves.

Someone even mentioned before' because their religion allows it' I mean Christ, what does religion have to do with this. The whole thread smacks of 'bad asians' in parts when this is a problem with people. English people unless I'm mistaken which I could well be admittedly.

Anjem Choudry was born in London and still praised the people who carried out the 7/7 attacks. Having been here a long time doesn't ensure people integrate with society or abandon their families cultures.

 

[Marching]

These kids have also been completely failed by society at large. We should be protecting children better.

Absolutely agree. We should also be punishing evil fecking abusers who think it their right to ruin the life's of the most vulnerable people in society.

 

[Redlambs]

If the people were born in England and raised in the West for 20 years then these arguments IMO are completely irrelevant.

You can't fail to integrate into something you don't need to integrate into. The British journalist being beheaded by the British jihadi isn't the social or cultural norm and has been condemned by their own community which is why I don't see the relevance in a comparison.

The argument would only make the slightest bit of sense IMO if these people were brought up for 20 years with these values and then came to the UK and went about their business. Otherwise these values thousands of miles away that they weren't raised with are irrelevant.

You are wrong on the integration aspect. It is a widespread issue that needs looking at, for whatever reason it happens.

And talking about cultural and religious differences in this situation is exactly what people should do, if we hide from it those who want to twist this can and will much more easily.

 

[Redlambs]

However big the pressure was, the institutions charged with protecting kids, social services...the police etc should be beyond that. They should not fear bearing the brunt of abrasive community members and a couple of Guardian op-ed writers if they can provide evidence of wrong doing regardless of who is committing them.

I do feel like this "we didn't do this because of PC culture" and "community cohesion" excuse is being used partially as a convenient crutch by a lot of clearly incompetent and negligent bunch of people. There are definitely governance issues (related to school curriculum), building of night clubs within or near conservative communities, combating racist parties that get a more widespread political pressure from within a lot of south asian communities in areas in which they are prevalent.

There probably was a lot of it in Rotherham, but we need stronger institutions to be above this. The Mail, the Sun are spinning this as a result of PC culture, it isn't. PC culture from leftists fights against "rape culture" more than anything. Look at the reactions of the communities,

I'm not sure what exactly the police there were thinking. Look at the reaction of pakistani, islamic institutions after the report came out. All are appalled. These rapists should have been reported, tried and faced prosecution. And it would have happened without the city burning down. The vast majority of the types of guys that are in gangs cause trouble in mosques, community gatherings and make our streets less safe. Within the south london community in Tooting, Wimbledon we had quite a bit of problem with them (and still do). Myself and a bunch of students from a university I went to here formed Student Action for refugees (STAR) which helped pakistani (but mainly) somali kids from impoverished households with homework etc after school. A lot of work was also done with Merton council and police force to tackle problems of gangs within the area. Like I said there are many who would oppose these kind of overtures but I can safely say if anyone from my community was charged with probable cause for rape, I certainly think it would be a hard sell to get organised community action on their behalf.

I do hope considering the scale of this, we can identify more attackers who commited these terrible crimes and the police can see for themself that the exposure of this hasn't resulted in some terrible blight that has engulfed the Pakistani communities but instead outrage (with admittedly a bit of defensiveness) and the vast vast majority would support getting sex-trafficking, woman-raping thugs off our streets regardless of the fact that we have similar levels of melanin.

Just another thing to add to many here. A lot of the kids involved in gangs here have a completely different culture, subculture and mentality to Pakistani kids, and teenagers. The vast majority of them (second of third generation) have never even been there. Pakistani Muslims in Britain tend to be more socially conservative and religious than those in Pakistan. To say there misogyny is being imported from Pakistan is inaccurate, lazy and orientalist. Pakistan certainly has a lot of issues (with misogyny, religious extremism) but the issues of Pakistani muslims are separate and unique.

I have been thinking a lot about what you said about being scared to say some of the stuff you have said around people and the tone and manner in which you have spoken in here should be encouraged. It is exactly the sort of frank (but respectful) dialogue we need. A lot of our population consumes talking points on a daily basis and we have to be flexible in reconsidering some of them, face reality (even if it uncomfortable) and reevaluate some of our axiomatic beliefs with these sort of touchy issues, what this abuse shows is that not doing so clearly has had and might still disastrous consequences.

We completely agree here, and communication about all aspects of this is vital to stop it being swept under the carpet ever again and being made a racial issue.

I think it is a relevance though how these monsters see these little girls and why they do. If, for example, they do actually see them as white trash simply because they are not muslim, then it does become a much bigger problem that needs frank discussion about. Again, if.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

If the people were born in England and raised in the West for 20 years then these arguments IMO are completely irrelevant.

You can't fail to integrate into something you don't need to integrate into. The British journalist being beheaded by the British jihadi isn't the social or cultural norm and has been condemned by their own community which is why I don't see the relevance in a comparison.

The argument would only make the slightest bit of sense IMO if these people were brought up for 20 years with these values and then came to the UK and went about their business. Otherwise these values thousands of miles away that they weren't raised with are irrelevant.

I think you are wrong in this mate. You need to integrate into the host community for mutual understanding and harmony. It's not saying you give up your heritage, but staying aloof definitely causes friction as people do not understand each other (which then causes prejudice influenced perspectives). If they fail to integrate, then irrespective of years passed these values of thousands of miles away still influence lives.

 

[Zarlak]

You are wrong on the integration aspect. It is a widespread issue that needs looking at, for whatever reason it happens.

And talking about cultural and religious differences in this situation is exactly what people should do, if we hide from it those who want to twist this can and will much more easily.

What exactly does religion have to do with this? It's not so much hiding from it as actually discussing what's relevant. Do you know the religion of these men for starters? Do you think their religion says it's okay to touch kids? I've not seen anywhere where it implies that? Do most people who practice their particular religion do this? It's completely irrelevant and again it smacks of looking for an easy way out.

 

[Zarlak]

I think you are wrong in this mate. You need to integrate into the host community for mutual understanding and harmony. It's not saying you give up your heritage, but staying aloof definitely causes friction as people do not understand each other (which then causes prejudice influenced perspectives). If they fail to integrate, then irrespective of years passed these values of thousands of miles away still influence lives.

Only the vast majority of people living here that were born here of different descents coexist in complete harmony showing that it's not a cultural issue, so much as some sick cretins that happened to be of a certain descent. If this were as big a factor as being made out in this thread then I can't see how it wouldn't be far more common of an occurance, the fact that it isn't shows its an individual thing, groups of sick people no matter the descent getting together and their common views that aren't shared by the vast majority of people including those inside their own community and going from there.

 

[Silva]

Only the vast majority of people living here that were born here of different descents coexist in complete harmony showing that it's not a cultural issue, so much as some sick cretins that happened to be of a certain descent. If this were as big a factor as being made out in this thread then I can't see how it wouldn't be far more common of an occurance, the fact that it isn't shows its an individual thing, groups of sick people no matter the descent getting together and their common views that aren't shared by the vast majority of people including those inside their own community and going from there.

So you there being multiple gangs from similar backgrounds all of whom prayed on vulnerable white girls is just as coincidence?

 

[Zarlak]

So you there being multiple gangs from similar backgrounds all of whom prayed on vulnerable white girls is just as coincidence?

There have been multiple gangs of white people that prey on vulnerable white girls. The fact that the ratio of people who do it to people that don't do it is so hugely in one favour, and the fact that when this kind of thing happens they are condemned by their own community, shows it's clearly not a cultural thing. Or do you think that their community comes out and condemns them and then goes home and says in private 'dunno what they're all complaining about, it's normal for us.'

Strong cultural influence doesn't only affect a few people out of millions. That's not how it works. If this was cultural, you'd see a million people sharing the same view, when infact they seem to share the opposite view.

 

[Silva]

There have been multiple gangs of white people that prey on vulnerable white girls. The fact that the ratio of people who do it to people that don't do it is so hugely in one favour, and the fact that when this kind of thing happens they are condemned by their own community, shows it's clearly not a cultural thing. Or do you think that their community comes out and condemns them and then goes home and says in private 'dunno what they're all complaining about, it's normal for us.'

As far as I know, the gangs of white men didn't discriminate on the background of the girls they were abusing. I'm not saying the entire UK Pakistani community are child molesters, but I am saying there is a lot of misogyny there (as can be seen by the way they treat their own women) which leads to some of them thinking it's perfectly fine to rape white girls (who, by these individuals, are seen as sub-human whores that are asking for it). Pakistan is a truly awful place to be a woman, and while most Pakistanis who come over here do adjust, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to this.

They grow up in a sexually repressed environment, and seeing the sexual freedom that British girls are given really fecks up their perception of these girls. British women have an awful stereotype in sexually repressed countries, and this leads to them being considered fair game for anything.

 

[Redlambs]

What exactly does religion have to do with this? It's not so much hiding from it as actually discussing what's relevant. Do you know the religion of these men for starters? Do you think their religion says it's okay to touch kids? I've not seen anywhere where it implies that? Do most people who practice their particular religion do this? It's completely irrelevant and again it smacks of looking for an easy way out.

Well if you quit charging around and read what I said, you might get the point.

It is already being brought up, not just in here but all over the news they are talking race and religion has already been mentioned. So surely talking about it is the best way to show this monsterous act isn't about that?

Who wants an easy way out btw? The only people who do are the ones at the top who covered this up, but that doesn't mean it's a fact all are. There would have been some pressure and fear and people would have spoken out and got ignored. It's all a shit wrong situation and everyone involved needs punishing, but running around trying to see this as simplistic as possible helps no one and stops nothing.

 

[Zarlak]

As far as I know, the gangs of white men didn't discriminate on the background of the girls they were abusing. I'm not saying the entire UK Pakistani community are child molesters, but I am saying there is a lot of misogyny there (as can be seen by the way they treat their own women) which leads to some of them thinking it's perfectly fine to rape white girls (who are seen as sub-human whores that are asking for it). Pakistan is a truly awful place to be a woman, and while most Pakistanis who come over here do adjust, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to this.

But you've said it's a cultural issue, which means it influences the views of a large amount of people in that culture, when the reality is that over here it influences very few people to behave like that and infact the vast majority of people behave in the opposite manner, which means it isn't a cultural issue.

I'm not denying that Pakistan is an awful place to be as a woman, that's fairly well documented. I disagree that it's to blame for how English people behave in England. As evidenced by the fact that almost everybody from that same culture over here thinks it's awful.

 

[Zarlak]

Well if you quit charging around and read what I said, you might get the point.

It is already being brought up, not just in here but all over the news they are talking race and religion has already been mentioned. So surely talking about it is the best way to show this monsterous act isn't about that?

Who wants an easy way out btw? The only people who do are the ones at the top who covered this up, but that doesn't mean it's a fact all are. There would have been some pressure and fear and people would have spoken out and got ignored. It's all a shit wrong situation and everyone involved needs punishing, but running around trying to see this as simplistic as possible helps no one and stops nothing.

I asked you to explain how exactly religion fits into this, which you don't seem to want to do. Talking about religion here is no different to talking about how Weetabix is to blame, since religion does not tell you to touch kids. It shouldn't need talking about to discover, it should be common sense.

I could subscribe to the view that it was cultural, if the fact that nobody else over here behaves like that doesn't instantly disprove it. If these people were raised over there with these beliefs and then came to the UK and carried them out then fair play, I could agree. But that's not what happened it seems.

 

[Silva]

But you've said it's a cultural issue, which means it influences the views of a large amount of people in that culture, when the reality is that over here it influences very few people to behave like that and infact the vast majority of people behave in the opposite manner, which means it isn't a cultural issue.

I'm not denying that Pakistan is an awful place to be as a woman, that's fairly well documented. I disagree that it's to blame for how English people behave in England. As evidenced by the fact that almost everybody from that same culture over here thinks it's awful.

The wider Pakistani community in Britain, while not as extreme as these particular guys, is also quite misogynistic. When a white guy and a Pakistani girl fall in love, I can assure you that it's not the white parents racism that's going to cause them difficulty.

 

[Zarlak]

The wider Pakistani community in Britain, while not as extreme as these particular guys, is also quite misogynistic. When a white guy and a Pakistani girl fall in love, I can assure you that it's not the white parents racism that's going to cause them difficulty.

However there isn't a fine line between misogyny and child molestation. That's a separate entity entirely. I can't see a correlation between a misogynistic community developing into people thinking it's ok to rape children. They're both separate issues that both need fully addressing, not some kind of mixing of the two or saying that one is because of the other which would invariably lead to a half arsed attempt at resolution.

I've also seen plenty of evidence of white parents causing difficulties with their children getting into relationships with Pakistani girls or boys. Racism is a two way street. Infact, I've seen more evidence of white parents causing problems in the relationship, Pakistani parents I have always found will allow it should the white person consider converting to Islam. I've seen white parents flat out refuse because the person is Pakistani. Though this is as completely anecdotal as your example, it doesn't really prove anything, only that you can't make generalisations like you just did.

 

[Silva]

However there isn't a fine line between misogyny and child molestation. That's a separate entity entirely. I can't see a correlation between a misogynistic community developing into people thinking it's ok to rape children. They're both separate issues that both need fully addressing, not some kind of mixing of the two or saying that one is because of the other which would invariably lead to a half arsed attempt at resolution.

I've also seen plenty of evidence of white parents causing difficulties with their children getting into relationships with Pakistani girls or boys. Racism is a two way street.

Can you not see how the misogyny will lead to women being abused? Again, I'm not saying the entire Pakistani community is like this, but this particular breed of man sees it as his god given right to feck whoever he pleases whenever he pleases. Being brought up to believe that women should be subservient to them and that white girls are whores that are asking for it are surely contributing factors.

It's not just racism that makes Pakistani parents act like that, they also see it as their right to make their daughters marry whoever they want them to marry.

edit; just saw your edit at the end there. I don't think you're fully aware of the pressure that Pakistanis face when choosing a partner. It's not just their parents, their wider family also expects them to marry a fellow Pakistani. That's just not true of Brits.

 

[Wolverine]

As far as I know, the gangs of white men didn't discriminate on the background of the girls they were abusing. I'm not saying the entire UK Pakistani community are child molesters, but I am saying there is a lot of misogyny there (as can be seen by the way they treat their own women) which leads to some of them thinking it's perfectly fine to rape white girls (who, by these individuals, are seen as sub-human whores that are asking for it). Pakistan is a truly awful place to be a woman, and while most Pakistanis who come over here do adjust, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to this.

They grow up in a sexually repressed environment, and seeing the sexual freedom that British girls are given really fecks up their perception of these girls. British women have an awful stereotype in sexually repressed countries, and this leads to them being considered fair game for anything.

Fairly sweeping, again not saying it isn't there but as I have mentioned this whole praying on particular type of girls (vulnerable, white) seems to be part of the mentality of quite a few Pakistani British gang members as oppose to the "lot of misogyny" you speak of.

Again its all very difficult to quantify, I know there are problems within all south asian communities (Pakistani, Indian, Tamil, Bangladeshi) with regards to misogyny. The trouble is that there is a distinction that should be made with social conservatism (which in many ways is pretty abhorrent with regards to some of the views) and the type of misogyny that leads people to believe they have a right to rape white girls. The latter I just do not believe exists in the same magnitude as you suggest from knowing quite a lot of Pakistanis here.

However much it is it needs to be tackled and addressed I agree. But we have to be careful with what we say. Within Pakistani communities you have Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi, Ismaili, and within them there are socially conservative types and those who are more progressive. They lean as an aggregate if I was to guess towards social conservatism like I said but the kind that wouldn't be amiss in most south asian communities.

Sex trafficking and the types of crimes committed usually involve gangs. Gang mentality and gang culture certainly isn't encouraged en mass. Again I really really think hyperbole doesn't help here.

And also what you said about Pakistan I think is irrelevant. As I mentioned there are significant differences between Pakistani and Pakistani British cultures. A lot of the lads I know here have rarely spent much time in Pakistan other than the odd holiday. We have issues there (but again no more than many other developing countries). Its very different in Pakistan in different places. The differences for women, women's rights, women's safety in rural SWAT as opposed to Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad would be massively different. Again problems of rape, forced marriages all exist there but I find the whole paradigm of imported Pakistani misogyny simplistic.

 

[Zarlak]

Can you not see how the misogyny will lead to women being abused? Again, I'm not saying the entire Pakistani community is like this, but this particular breed of man sees it as his god given right to feck whoever he pleases whenever he pleases. Being brought up to believe that women should be subservient to them and that white girls are whores that are asking for it are surely contributing factors.

It's not just racism that makes Pakistani parents act like that, they also see it as their right to make their daughters marry whoever they want them to marry.

edit; just saw your edit at the end there. I don't think you're fully aware of the pressure that Pakistanis face when choosing a partner. It's not just their parents, their wider family also expects them to marry a fellow Pakistani. That's just not true of Brits.

Can you not see how that's entirely different to children? I can't help but think you're classing them as similar things.

Also your post is full of generalisations that are disproven by countless people. Can you not see that? I admitted my post was completely anecdotal, as is yours. You can't make the sweeping statements you're making. 'This particular breed of man sees it as his god given right to feck whoever he pleases when he pleases' only the fact upto millions of people don't act like this, proves that's bollocks. Just because some do, does not mean it's a wide spread fact. The fact that it's widely condemned, shows clearly right in front of your own face, that this particular breed of man does not see it as his god given right to feck whoever he pleases when he pleases. Only select few who are in turn condemned by wider society.