Rotherham child abuse scandal

Why does Pakistan have to be prefaced by Muslim?
Thats like saying Hindu-Indians or Jewish-Isralites.

If they are all Pakistani then call it like it is.
No, because their religion plays a factor. Tell me, of the accused was there any Pakistani that wasn't a muslim?

This is the problem in Western societies. Too afraid to call it out, call it what it is.

Never dare to include Islam / Muslim in anything related to something like these cases. However, sadly, religion does play a factor.

Same way it does when a Catholic priest rapes a child. These guys need to be addressed similarly.

Stop being cowards and throw generic labels such as "Asians" around, misleading people into thinking it could have been a secular non-believing Japanese gang who committed these crimes, when it is not the case.

Label them fairly, and fair to say is that they are of Pakistani origin and Muslim at that.
 
No, because their religion plays a factor. Tell me, of the accused was there any Pakistani that wasn't a muslim?

This is the problem in Western societies. Too afraid to call it out, call it what it is.

Never dare to include Islam / Muslim in anything related to something like these cases. However, sadly, religion does play a factor.

Same way it does when a Catholic priest rapes a child. These guys need to be addressed similarly.

Stop being cowards and throw generic labels such as "Asians" around, misleading people into thinking it could have been a secular non-believing Japanese gang who committed these crimes, when it is not the case.

Label them fairly, and fair to say is that they are of Pakistani origin and Muslim at that.


Calling them Asians is ridiculous.
Pakistan is 95–97% Muslim so calling them Muslim-Pakistanis is redundant IMO.
 
Calling them Asians is ridiculous.
Pakistan is 95–97% Muslim so calling them Muslim-Pakistanis is redundant IMO.
OK Cool, concession being made. I'm glad to read you at least think the "Asian" tag is ridiculous, because it is really annoyingly abhorrent.

As for whether or not to include the Muslim prefix, since their faith (in the form of their culture / surroundings / upbringing) most likely plays a role, I think it is good to make people aware of this in order to combat it. Reform is needed to thwart such horrendous crime in the future.
 
Hmm. Your analogy is a bit strange.

Since the accused are of Pakistani origin and Muslim, it would be fair to label the rape gang as: Muslim-Pakistani rather than as "Asian".

They are also from Asia...
 
There are many ways these idiots get their information, ratification and justification from. An imam, their surroundings and thus most certainly their culture (which their religion is a part of) all play a role in their behaviour.

I was born into a Muslim family (I do not really practice), and never had an Imam preach extremist views. You are grouping a whole religion, when it is sick twisted individuals who see people they know do it, and so follow. If anything, British Muslims are actually growing further away from their parents religious roots. This is not about them following God or religion.
 
They are also from Asia...
Yeah, so you think that is fair to say? What a load of crap.

You would be OK with a French guy blowing 100 people to pieces and then have newspapers label him as "European"? Thus insinuating it could have been an Englishman, a Dutch guy or someone from Portugal instead?

Sorry, that is just ridiculous.

If you're a newspaper you got to act upon delivering useful and fair information, not vague, misleading generalisations like "Asian".

If a Pakistani from a Muslim background commits such a crime, then label him as such.
 
I was born into a Muslim family (I do not really practice), and never had an Imam preach extremist views. You are grouping a whole religion, when it is sick twisted individuals who see people they know do it, and so follow. If anything, British Muslims are actually growing further away from their parents religious roots. This is not about them following God or religion.
That's good for you. I'm glad to read that there are these cases as well (as yourself).
I have lived amongst many muslims (still do), have been to mosques and have talked to many. And I know that there are many out there like yourself (I mean, practising and peaceful muslims, I know you said you don't really practice), but the truth is, there are also disproportionally a lot of muslims who do have very extremist views and who do condone such behaviour and in certain cases there are imams who do give men like these Pakistanis the justification and foundation for their crimes.
 
Yeah, so you think that is fair to say? What a load of crap.

You would be OK with a French guy blowing 100 people to pieces and then have newspapers label him as "European"? Thus insinuating it could have been an Englishman, a Dutch guy or someone from Portugal instead?

Sorry, that is just ridiculous.

If you're a newspaper you got to act upon delivering useful and fair information, not vague, misleading generalisations like "Asian".

If a Pakistani from a Muslim background commits such a crime, then label him as such.

They weren't all Pakistani though. You are just replacing one generalisation with another more specific but arguably less accurate one.
 
They weren't all Pakistani though. You are just replacing one generalisation with another more specific but arguably less accurate one.
They were mostly, majority Pakistani muslims.

I think it is tremendously unfair to label the perpetuators Asian. It's dishonest, offending and cowardly.

But, I can see our little back and forth is leading to nowhere so you bury your head in the sand and have fun.
 
They were mostly, majority Pakistani muslims.

I think it is tremendously unfair to label the perpetuators Asian. It's dishonest, offending and cowardly.

But, I can see our little back and forth is leading to nowhere so you bury your head in the sand and have fun.

But if they aren't all Pakistani then referring to them as being Pakistani is dishonest.
 
How about labeling it: mostly muslim-Pakistani.

And the article can include the origins and cultural upbringing of the few non muslim-Pakistani culprits.

Fairer than: "Asians".

I don't understand why this bothers you so much.

Personally, I would much prefer it if such an article included the origins of everyone involved on an individual basis. Generalisations in the media never result in anything good.
 
I don't understand why this bothers you so much.

Personally, I would much prefer it if such an article included the origins of everyone involved on an individual basis. Generalisations in the media never result in anything good.
It bothers me, because it is dishonest and misleading from the start.

I conceded and told you a simple solution, to add "mostly". To me that is much fairer than to say "Asian".
 
Apparently, the police didn't act upon this case sooner, because they were afraid of being accused of "racism" and such wonderful concepts that are thrown around left right and center. It has created of United Kingdom a cesspool of religious, cultural fueled misdemeanants.

That is not a healthy society, where one needs to walk on toes and eggshells when one has reasonable concerns regarding one's feelings towards an alien culture, when said alien culture negatively impacts one's society.

It needs to be openly discussed. The cultural framework (of which Islam is a part) needs to be freely scrutinised, discussed and assessed when necessary.
 
Apparently, the police didn't act upon this case sooner, because they were afraid of being accused of "racism" and such wonderful concepts that are thrown around left right and center. It has created of United Kingdom a cesspool of religious, cultural fueled misdemeanants.

It bothers me, because it is dishonest and misleading from the start.

I conceded and told you a simple solution, to add "mostly". To me that is much fairer than to say "Asian".

Both are unfair generalisations. Why/how did the non-pakistanis get involved?

The hiding behind racism I agree is disgusting but that's a separate issue entirely that has nothing to do with Pakistanis specifically.
 
That's good for you. I'm glad to read that there are these cases as well (as yourself).
I have lived amongst many muslims (still do), have been to mosques and have talked to many. And I know that there are many out there like yourself (I mean, practising and peaceful muslims, I know you said you don't really practice), but the truth is, there are also disproportionally a lot of muslims who do have very extremist views and who do condone such behaviour and in certain cases there are imams who do give men like these Pakistanis the justification and foundation for their crimes.

I do not personally know one Muslim who has extremist views. Even mildly extremist (if that's a thing). People being paranoid of young Muslims suddenly turning into extremists are idiots. If it was really such a regular occurrence, you'd know by now. Mosques are filled every week. The Imam has an audience he can preach to. The idea that kids are being brainwashed is idiotic. The way you put it, people who do not know better probably have this idea that 100s of Imam's across the country are preaching extremist views. Mosques are open door, Imam's preaching extremist views (if there are any) would have been targeted by authorities very easily.

The Police in these cases are stupid. If you have a reasonable case then you investigate it. No one will defend child abusers.
 
Apparently, the police didn't act upon this case sooner, because they were afraid of being accused of "racism" and such wonderful concepts that are thrown around left right and center. It has created of United Kingdom a cesspool of religious, cultural fueled misdemeanants.

That is not a healthy society, where one needs to walk on toes and eggshells when one has reasonable concerns regarding one's feelings towards an alien culture, when said alien culture negatively impacts one's society.

It needs to be openly discussed. The cultural framework (of which Islam is a part) needs to be freely scrutinised, discussed and assessed when necessary.

That probably has more to do with the police and their history of institutionalised racism which was a much talked about subject if you go back 15 years or so (and rightly so), than any "alien cultures".
 
See below, thanks.
If you seriously believe religion has influenced their behaviour, then other Billion and half Muslims are failing their duty as Muslims of not raping and and sexually abusing young girls.
 
Last edited:
People committing these vile acts are young, religiously, socially, and educationally bankrupt youths.
 
Funny also, how English media consistently write "Asian" gangs when it is clearly about Muslim-Pakistani gangs.

In my country when you say Asian there is really only one part coming up into one's mind and that is: Far-East Asians like Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese etc. Pakistanis and Indians aren't really ever referred to Asian in The Netherlands.

To me this "Asian" label is very misleading and actually very racist of those newspapers to lump all the other Asians into one pile. Political correctness and racism at the same time. Well done!

Oh well, anything that "disconnects" Islam from atrocities within the UK should be used I suppose!

It's because the percentage of people of Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi background is far higher than people of Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. due to our history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Asian

Not saying you're wrong, but that's just how it is here. People from the Far East are referred to as British-Chinese etc.
 
It's because the percentage of people of Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi background is far higher than people of Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. due to our history.

It still is a misnomer. Though geographically correct, by practice Asian usually means Chinese, Japanese etc. And you could not make a bigger mistake classifying India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and SriLanka under the same bucket of Asians. They are quite diverse and not usually friendly with each other. Many from one country will take offence being called as from another.
 
It still is a misnomer. Though geographically correct, by practice Asian usually means Chinese, Japanese etc. And you could not make a bigger mistake classifying India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and SriLanka under the same bucket of Asians. They are quite diverse and not usually friendly with each other. Many from one country will take offence being called as from another.

By what practice?

In the UK, people of South Asian background are usually described simply as 'British Asian'.
 
ok, so we're agreed that most of the alleged perps are of Pakistani origin? That's what I read in the BBC reports.
So, moving on.....

Horrific stuff, reading some of these reports. Wtf were the police and social services thinking by letting this go on. They were too PC to blow the whistle?
 
It's irritating that the issue of race is a main focal point of the entire story. They were all Asian men, but I'm sure that has more to do with their social-economic background and the demographics of Rotherham rather than their race. If you look at similar crimes across the country, they are usually perpetrated by low-level, opportunistic, organised gangs of similar social-economics backgrounds: race is coincidental.

The same can be said of gang violence. The majority is carried out by young black youths in London but then if you look in the North East - like Manchester and Liverpool - the same crimes are being carried out by young white youths. What they all have in common is lack of access to decent education (for a whole list of reasons) and, by association, a lack of decent job prospects.

Also, re: Rotherham, I think the 'PC' angle that is being claimed as the reason for years of inaction is actually a convenient excuse potentially covering up more serious reasons as to why it wasn't stopped.
 
Pakistans hidden shame. Child Abuse

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...hildren-falling-prey-vicious-paedophiles.html

Makes for some pretty horrific reading! I can understand cases of it happening, but the sheer scale and commonality of it is just terrible! It reminds me of a thread here which talked about similar attitude to rape in Africa, I think.

The more I read, these criminals are simply sexual predators preying on children. Sex or race or ethnicity of the children does not seem to matter at all!
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/opinion/sunday/ross-douthat-rape-and-rotherham.html

THERE are enough grim tidings from around the world that the news from Rotherham, a faded English industrial town where about 1,400 girls, mostly white and working class, were raped by gangs of Pakistani men while the local authorities basically shrugged and did nothing, is already slipping out of American headlines.

But we should remain with Rotherham for a moment, and give its story a suitable place of dishonor in the waking nightmare that is late summer 2014.

We should do so not just for the sake of the victims, though for their sake attention should be paid: to the girls gang-raped or doused with gasoline; to the girls assaulted in bus stations and alleyways; to the girl, not yet 14, who brought bags of soiled clothes as evidence to the police and earned nothing for her trouble save for a check for 140 pounds — recompense for the garments, which the cops somehow managed to misplace.

But bearing witness is insufficient; lessons must be learned as well. This is more than just a horror story. It’s a case study in how exploitation can flourish in different cultural contexts, and how insufficient any set of pieties can be to its restraint.

Interpreted crudely, what happened in Rotherham looks like an ideological mirror image of Roman Catholicism’s sex abuse scandal. The Catholic crisis seemed to vindicate a progressive critique of traditionalism: Here were the wages of blind faith and sexual repression; here was a case study in how a culture of hierarchy and obedience gave criminals free rein.

The crimes in Rotherham, by contrast, seem scripted to vindicate a reactionary critique of liberal multiculturalism: Here are immigrant gangs exploiting a foolish Western tolerance; here are authorities too committed to “diversity” to react appropriately; here is a liberal society so open-minded that both its brain and conscience have fallen out.

A more subtle reading, though, reveals commonalities between the two scandals. The rate of priestly abuse was often at its worst in places and eras (the 1970s, above all) where traditional attitudes overlapped with a sudden wave of liberation — where deference to church authority by parents and police coexisted with a sense of moral upheaval around sexuality and sexual ethics, both within seminaries and in society at large. (John Patrick Shanley’s famous play “Doubt,” in which a hip, with-it, Kennedy-era priest relies on clericalism to evade accusations of abuse, remains the best dramatization of this tangle.)

In a somewhat similar way, what happened in Rotherham was rooted both in left-wing multiculturalism and in much more old-fashioned prejudices about race and sex and class. The local bureaucracy was, indeed, too fearful of being labeled “racist,” too unwilling, as a former member of Parliament put it, to “rock the multicultural community boat.” But the rapes also went unpunished because of racially inflected misogyny among police officers, who seemed to think that white girls exploited by immigrant men were “tarts” who deserved roughly what they got.

The crucial issue in both scandals isn’t some problem that’s exclusive to traditionalism or progressivism. Rather, it’s the protean nature of power and exploitation, and the way that very different forms of willful blindness can combine to frustrate justice.

So instead of looking for ideological vindication in these stories, it’s better to draw a general lesson. Show me what a culture values, prizes, puts on a pedestal, and I’ll tell you who is likely to get away with rape.

In Catholic Boston or Catholic Ireland, that meant men robed in the vestments of the church.

In Joe Paterno’s pigskin-mad Happy Valley, it meant a beloved football coach.

In Hollywood and the wider culture industry — still the great undiscovered country of sexual exploitation, I suspect — it has often meant the famous and talented, from Roman Polanski to the BBC’s Jimmy Savile, robed in the authority of their celebrity and art.

And in Rotherham, it meant men whose ethnic and religious background made them seem politically untouchable, and whose victims belonged to a class that both liberal and conservative elements in British society regard with condescension or contempt.

The point is that as a society changes, as what’s held sacred and who’s empowered shifts, so do the paths through which evil enters in, the prejudices and blind spots it exploits.

So don’t expect tomorrow’s predators to look like yesterday’s. Don’t expect them to look like the figures your ideology or philosophy or faith would lead you to associate with exploitation.

Expect them, instead, to look like the people whom you yourself would be most likely to respect, most afraid to challenge publicly, or least eager to vilify and hate.

Because your assumptions and pieties are evil’s best opportunity, and your conventional wisdom is what’s most likely to condemn victims to their fate.
 
Of the 8 mosques in Rotherham none had an Imam who was prepared to come onto the radio and give an interview because they said they didn't speak English well enough.The Imam from Sheffield who did said the problems were all down to western culture and society and girls getting drunk.


(Disclaimer, this information is from a guy I work with about a radio show he listens to.)
 
I’m from the Rotherham area too, I think the problem is there's a large number of the Asian community who have failed to integrate into British society.

You open the national newspaper today and you see this on the front page, then on page 3 it’s about the beheaded US journalist by a British Muslim, there’s clearly a problem.

It’s a shame really Rotherham is not a bad place (surrounding areas) and Rotherham on a night out is a good night out with little trouble.
I'm from Rotherham (obviously) and also from the said community. While I can see where you are coming from, the truth is, it is much more nuanced than simply the blame lying at the feet of the Asian community. What we have seen, is a lack of integration yes, but also a neglect of the Asian community from the rest of society. Put it this way, I am from Masbrough. My friends growing up were other Asian lads from Ferham and Masbrough. When I went to college, this group of friends extended to include other Asian lads from Clifton and dare I say it, Eastwood... You don't have to be a brain surgeon to see what kind of pattern is developing here. Yes, the Asian community has its own problems also. The failure to branch out with the local community has been there ever since my family first came here in the 60s and 70s, and 40 to 50 years on, this really shouldn't be the case now, but it is. The onus is not just on the Asian community to accept its failings, but also on the rest of society to be accommodating to the Asian community. To think that all of us live within a 3 mile radius of the Town Centre, generally in the most deprived areas with little prospect of social mobility, with a lack of acclimatisation and general neglect from the rest of the Town, it isn't surprising that such a fecked up situation has occurred.
 
Most of the Muslim world hails from countries with little to no education and with backward cultures. If you think there aren't incredible levels of misogyny there then I'm afraid you don't know much about these cultures. That's not to say individual Muslims can't be forward thinking and progressive, but to say that collectively they're way behind Europeans on such matters.
A very Orientalist prism that you are using there. The Muslim world perhaps wouldn't be in the shit to the extent it is if it wasn't for the Imperialistic meddling of these very same Europeans and latterly, Americans in the region purely in the name of 'security' and natural resources... "Liberal" interventionism? My arse.
 
There obviously was pressure, I just think it was perceived to be a lot bigger than it was. Our communities has to do deal with plenty of things post-9/11, enhanced spotlight on very many issues. Like I said though, what you hear is the voice of a few who can be very loud. I know tons of people who don't partake in protests or politics because they oppose what some are saying. Many, frankly, are apathetic and not really concerned too much with community politics. I simply don't know to what extent the vociferousness of said communities is a factor is in, and opposed to laziness and incompetence, it is probably a mixture of both.

I have to concede the point, there are very many different sub-communities around the UK. What I learnt about what was happening in the governance of those schools in Birmingham and now in Rotherham suggests there to be a tangible problem that should be looked it and tackled. Engaging communities is the best way, more needs to be done on our end absolutely. BBC Asian Network morning phone in show revealed some abhorrent things, how some Pakistani councillors in Rotherham actively blocked investigations. Completely unacceptable, and in my opinion should be illegal. Their ethnicity shouldn't be a taboo precluding prosecution for the police.

Anyone complicit in cover up who had active knowledge of what went on should be in jail.
That's more to do with family links. I know of one particular councillor who was particularly vile in this aspect. Thankfully he has now been suspended. And not before time, he has almost literally got away with murder over the last 10-15 years. It was like the git was the teflon don!
 
The legal system failed to protect these children. If the proper steps were taken to ensure the perpetrators were punished it wouldn't have escalated to this extent. This does not justify the act but if there was any fear of being brought to justice I'm sure these cowards would think twice before committing these crimes on the innocent. The laws of the land failed by bending to pacify the situation instead of protecting the innocent.
 
Don't understand the fuss over the generalization of Asians. If there's one thing we can generalize about, it's that, by almost any measure,South Asian society is pretty misogynistic. You'd have to be deluded to even deny it.
 
The legal system failed to protect these children. If the proper steps were taken to ensure the perpetrators were punished it wouldn't have escalated to this extent. This does not justify the act but if there was any fear of being brought to justice I'm sure these cowards would think twice before committing these crimes on the innocent. The laws of the land failed by bending to pacify the situation instead of protecting the innocent.

Exactly, this only became such a large scale crime because it was allowed to go on by the authorities. If it had been stopped when it could and should have been I highly doubt we'd be talking about even a tenth of the cases. Same with Savile. Same with Catholic Priests. The article Eboue posted earlier covers this point really well.
 
i’m generally against the death penalty. but bring back the death penalty. for those two.