Rotherham child abuse scandal

[DOTA]

And besides, if it is a problem within certain cultures, then why should that be hidden?

It only drives everyone further apart and gives the scum, who is present in all cultures and races, chance to do what they do.

Yup. The warier we are of talking about the issue the more space we leave for Islamist extremists who believe white girls are sluts and Neo-Nazis who believe in the supremecy of the white race to step in to.

 

[Dante]

I'm Pakistani, born and raised in London. Spent my childhood in Pakistan. This comes as a shock here to quite literally everyone I know. The scale more than anything. I really don't think misogyny (the kind that lead men to commit something on this scale) is endemic within subcommunities here. There is social conservatism, and socially conservative views. And yes, a lot of dangerous assumptions being made. About Pakistan. Not sure how our rape statistics measure up to DR Congo, South Africa, India. Not saying there isn't a problem. But hyperbole is pretty dangerous too. That's not to say this kind of thing isn't worth delving into more. But I would imagine its more of a gang subculture issue (with men who happen to be from Pakistani sub-communities or gangs) as opposed to us having a cultural proclivity towards this. If someone commits a crime, they should be charged and arrested. End of. No-one from the "PC brigade" or "muslim community" will object I assure you. Arresting gang members and rapists does not affect community cohesion.

Exactly.

 

[Redlambs]

I'm Pakistani, born and raised in London. Spent my childhood in Pakistan. This comes as a shock here to quite literally everyone I know. The scale more than anything. I really don't think misogyny (the kind that lead men to commit something on this scale) is endemic within subcommunities here. There is social conservatism, and socially conservative views. And yes, a lot of dangerous assumptions being made. About Pakistan. Not sure how our rape statistics measure up to DR Congo, South Africa, India. Not saying there isn't a problem. But hyperbole is pretty dangerous too. That's not to say this kind of thing isn't worth delving into more. But I would imagine its more of a gang subculture issue (with men who happen to be from Pakistani sub-communities or gangs) as opposed to us having a cultural proclivity towards this. If someone commits a crime, they should be charged and arrested. End of. No-one from the "PC brigade" or "muslim community" will object I assure you. Arresting gang members and rapists does not affect community cohesion.

Good read mate.

The thing is though, look at the fact people like the police are actually afraid to sort these situations out for fear of being labelled racist. There are definite undertones in that area all around, so when situations like this come to the fore it really has to be talked about openly and dealt with by all communities and cultures.

Do you agree, for example, that there are large communities of people who simple don't or won't integrate? It all adds up and instead of logic and freedom to communicate rising to the top, you get fear, misinformation and stupidity.


Your last point is the most accurate of all, regardless of colour, faith and origins, these people should be locked away for life and we should all want that. A criminal is a criminal and it shouldn't tar everyone else. Unfortunately, as we know, this will. The only way to stop this is to deal with it and not hide from everything, if we are all communicating and out in the open, the real scum have nowhere to hide and the likes of the bnp and ukip can't use this.

 

[Will Absolute]

Without respect, piss off.

EDIT - Alternatively you could tell us all what you know about the social problems of Rotherham but I suspect the former would achieve more.

Nothing except what I've read in the media in the last couple of days. But I am familiar with your views. I've never seen you approach any subject with an open mind. Knee-jerk ideological reflex is an accurate description of your thought processes.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I am from Rotherham, born in Eastwood.

The issues here can't be brushed off as easily as some people would like to think. The point is children were being raped and abused and a community raised the issue but because that community was white and the child victims were white and the perpetrators were Pakistani nothing was done about it. So more children were abused and prostituted and the abuse went on for longer.

The Council failed

The police failed

Social services failed.

The reason they failed is that they were scared of the political backlash from the Pakistani community. Why would corrective action be likely to cause a backlash? That is central issue. It is about distrust between communities and of authorities leading to the point where something as obviously wrong as this can continue for years and years. We have to do better than this and stop trying to pretend immigration has only positive consequences because it doesn't. If you can't admit that then you can't do anything about the issue except hide it.

 

[ravi2]

These lot are not comparabe with white nonces in my opinion. This is a cultural issue full stop. The sooner people accept that, the sooner it may be eradicated.

Well let's just cover the whole problem back up then.

This type of thing isnt localized to any particular culture or region, the problem seems to be more or less men in general.

 

[MoskvaRed]

What makes you so certain of that?

Having lived and travelled a lot in the Middle East, I'm afraid there is an attitude among certain Moslems that white women are fair game. Interestingly, in a different culture, there is also a similar attitude here among certain Russian Moslems from the Caucuses. Is that the majority view? Of course not, the vast majority would be outraged by such behaviour. Is it a Muslim phenomenon - equally no, pimping and sexual exploitation has no colour or religious boundaries. But, the problem cannot be fully addressed if it is completely decontextualised and we take attitude that these gangs could equally be Irish, Italian, Chinese etc. There is a cultural element at work here, in addition to common criminality. To the extent we refuse to recognize that and are reluctant to apply the full force of the law for fear of appearing racist, we are effectively recruiting for the extreme right.

 

[Redlambs]

This type of thing isnt localized to any particular culture or region, the problem seems to be more or less men in general.

Yes, but that doesn't change the facts of this case and that there have been numerous other very similar cases.

 

[DOTA]

Nothing except what I've read in the media in the last couple of days. But I am familiar with your views. I've never seen you approach any subject with an open mind. Knee-jerk ideological reflex is an accurate description of your thought processes.

If you think of anything to contribute to the discussion, do let me know. Your views on my thought processes don't particularly intrigue me, however.

 

[Stookie]

I could come up with a theory about how Italian culture is responsible for the Mafia, and nothing in the world would stop what I'm saying from being true.

In what way? All I'm saying is that it's not the culture, just certain sub-currents within it. Root out those perpetrators but don't tar the whole community with the same brush.

I don't think anyone in this thread is dim enough to tar a whole community with the same brush. But how do you talk about a certain community without mentioning it? From now on should we write 'certain sections of an anonymous community'? The problem is amongst this community only. In all of the different towns it is the same community- not all of them I know, but that community never the less. Not the Jewish community, not the West Indian community, not the Chinese community or any other community. It is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Wolverine]

Good read mate.

The thing is though, look at the fact people like the police are actually afraid to sort these situations out for fear of being labelled racist. There are definite undertones in that area all around, so when situations like this come to the fore it really has to be talked about openly and dealt with by all communities and cultures.

Do you agree, for example, that there are large communities of people who simple don't or won't integrate? It all adds up and instead of logic and freedom to communicate rising to the top, you get fear, misinformation and stupidity.


Your last point is the most accurate of all, regardless of colour, faith and origins, these people should be locked away for life and we should all want that. A criminal is a criminal and it shouldn't tar everyone else. Unfortunately, as we know, this will. The only way to stop this is to deal with it and not hide from everything, if we are all communicating and out in the open, the real scum have nowhere to hide and the likes of the bnp and ukip can't use this.

It is unacceptable for the police not to have dealt with these situations. Being scared of labelled racist is not a valid excuse. There are genuine concerns for minorities. The kind that should be there to prevent reprisals (like the arson attacks we saw post-woolwich) and to prevent religious hate crimes or rhetoric that could lead to it.

This is different, if there was institutional cover up then that too should be a crime. It's not a valid excuse. I think though it is talked about, I encourage people to tune into BBC asia radio shows when these sorts of things happens. There are bloggers, community centers, activists and agencies set up to tackle problems like domestic violence, forced marriages and very candid discussions on free speech, racism etc. More so than ever before.

I think crimes though should be dealt with by the police. People protest about foreign wars, about humans rights issues, about racist headlines, racist parties. I think there is institutional cover up always to be found (think the Vatican, Joe Paterno, Yewtree) and that is appalling. Not speaking out with knowledge of this, whatever the reason is appalling and no reason is ever valid.

I just don't think reducing whole communities to caricature without getting the full facts is conducive to prevent this sort of thing. I haven't read the report, it would be interesting to see exactly how many men were involved (if possible to quantify), how many were associated with gangs and who knew. All of whom should be named, shamed and possibly prosecuted. I assure you certainly I wouldn't object. Nor would any imam or family member or friend I associate with.

With regards to integration I do agree many don't do so. I don't think that directly correlates with those people who turn out to be gang members, rapists. Many kids are born and raised only knowing other Muslims. A lot of our non-muslim acquaintances come from university, work. A big problem is the lack of integration at universities now too where brown kids only associate with other brown kids etc. Again I don't want to generalise but something from my experience. A lot of communities are comfortable just associating with their own and thats tragic because I always find a lot of their kids miss out and are uneasy associating with anyone who's not of their culture. And that shouldn't happen. But again I know plenty of people like that from my community, not sure again as I mentioned would that mean they would be criminals or help criminality foster within their communities.

Its difficult, these issues worth discussing more without reducing people to caricature. Nobody should be scared to speak out. Again I will mention, just because people do not visibly see the outrage that exists against this sort of thing from people within communities does not mean that the outrage isn't there.

 

[Will Absolute]

If you think of anything to contribute to the discussion, do let me know. Your views on my thought processes don't particularly intrigue me, however.

Then why did you reply twice?

In fairness, I shouldn't have had a go at you. You're entitled to your particular perspective. It was a bit of a 'reflex' on my part.

 

[Dante]

I don't think anyone in this thread is dim enough to tar a whole community with the same brush. But how do you talk about a certain community without mentioning it? From now on should we write 'certain sections of an anonymous community'? The problem is amongst this community only. In all of the different towns it is the same community- not all of them I know, but that community never the less. Not the Jewish community, not the West Indian community, not the Chinese community or any other community. It is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

Blaming a culture is blaming a community.

As far as other communities within similar socio-economic classes are concerned, rape and dehuminisation of women is still massively prevalent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27815220

 

[Wolverine]

I am from Rotherham, born in Eastwood.

The issues here can't be brushed off as easily as some people would like to think. The point is children were being raped and abused and a community raised the issue but because that community was white and the child victims were white and the perpetrators were Pakistani nothing was done about it. So more children were abused and prostituted and the abuse went on for longer.

The Council failed

The police failed

Social services failed.

The reason they failed is that they were scared of the political backlash from the Pakistani community. Why would corrective action be likely to cause a backlash? That is central issue. It is about distrust between communities and of authorities leading to the point where something as obviously wrong as this can continue for years and years. We have to do better than this and stop trying to pretend immigration has only positive consequences because it doesn't. If you can't admit that then you can't do anything about the issue except hide it.

Absolutely disgusting if that is true. I am from a Shia family, and in south london so we are very much a sub-community. Again as I said, I'm unsure as to why there was a fear of "political backlash" from Pakistani community. I really don't think there would be mass rallies in support of convicted rapists.

To what extent though is this a genuine "PC" thing as opposed to incompetence, laziness etc from a clearly inept social services, police and council in Rotherham is another question.

 

[DOTA]

Then why did you reply twice?

In fairness, I shouldn't have had a go at you. You're entitled to your particular perspective. It was a bit of a 'reflex' on my part.

It was weird. You've wandered in to a discussion you admittedly know sod all about, seen someone who reckons they do know about it and decided to question their objectivity based on what you've seen elsewhere... You'll have a busy life if you keep that up, Will.

 

[711]

I don't think anyone in this thread is dim enough to tar a whole community with the same brush. But how do you talk about a certain community without mentioning it? From now on should we write 'certain sections of an anonymous community'? The problem is amongst this community only. In all of the different towns it is the same community- not all of them I know, but that community never the less. Not the Jewish community, not the West Indian community, not the Chinese community or any other community. It is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

I think there are some who can't distinguish between community and individual though, they see any mention of culture as a personal attack.

Let me offer them an analogy. I am English white working class male. A group that is prone to alcohol abuse, violence, lack of ambition, poor work ethic, and a sad underachievement in education. I would like to improve all those things, and bring more men and boys of my background up to the national average. The only way to do that is to face up to reality, find the reasons why, and set about making changes.

 

[Redlambs]

It is unacceptable for the police not to have dealt with these situations. Being scared of labelled racist is not a valid excuse. There are genuine concerns for minorities. The kind that should be there to prevent reprisals (like the arson attacks we saw post-woolwich) and to prevent religious hate crimes or rhetoric that could lead to it.

This is different, if there was institutional cover up then that too should be a crime. It's not a valid excuse. I think though it is talked about, I encourage people to tune into BBC asia radio shows when these sorts of things happens. There are bloggers, community centers, activists and agencies set up to tackle problems like domestic violence, forced marriages and very candid discussions on free speech, racism etc. More so than ever before.

I think crimes though should be dealt with by the police. People protest about foreign wars, about humans rights issues, about racist headlines, racist parties. I think there is institutional cover up always to be found (think the Vatican, Joe Paterno, Yewtree) and that is appalling. Not speaking out with knowledge of this, whatever the reason is appalling and no reason is ever valid.

I just don't think reducing whole communities to caricature without getting the full facts is conducive to prevent this sort of thing. I haven't read the report, it would be interesting to see exactly how many men were involved (if possible to quantify), how many were associated with gangs and who knew. All of whom should be named, shamed and possibly prosecuted. I assure you certainly I wouldn't object. Nor would any imam or family member or friend I associate with.

With regards to integration I do agree many don't do so. I don't think that directly correlates with those people who turn out to be gang members, rapists. Many kids are born and raised only knowing other Muslims. A lot of our non-muslim acquaintances come from university, work. A big problem is the lack of integration at universities now too where brown kids only associate with other brown kids etc. Again I don't want to generalise but something from my experience. A lot of communities are comfortable just associating with their own and thats tragic because I always find a lot of their kids miss out and are uneasy associating with anyone who's not of their culture. And that shouldn't happen. But again I know plenty of people like that from my community, not sure again as I mentioned would that mean they would be criminals or help criminality foster within their communities.

Its difficult, these issues worth discussing more without reducing people to caricature. Nobody should be scared to speak out. Again I will mention, just because people do not visibly see the outrage that exists against this sort of thing from people within communities does not mean that the outrage isn't there.

Completely agree. And this is my point, there is so much we all don't talk about through one fear or another and it's frankly incredibly poor especially in this day and age.

One thing it is worth noting though, that as a white male I find it more and more tough to talk about these things through fear of being labelled racist or a ukip voter or daily mail reader. It's a bigger problem than most realise, it isn't just limited to minorities and different cultures, and that is really driving a lot of people to do stupid things like protest vote ukip.

There certainly is, even on here, an undercurrent of if you speak about some imigration or race issue that affects you, you instantly get fobbed off or the focus shifted. It's not the case when talk of racism comes up though.

It's a strange and sad situation, but not an irreversible one. I firmly believe the only way to deal with all this and move forward is communication all round, but I can tell you from personal experience, I do find myself being very careful what I say and do as the threat of being called racist merely for speaking up in my line of work is certainly ever present. I know a lot of different people in different occupations who would say the same. It's such a wrong situation, though I agree that it should be criminal that these people have kept quiet about this for that long. Hopefully this leads to us seeing the full extent of a shift in this regard, but somehow I think there's a lot more hidden.

 

[ravi2]

I don't think anyone in this thread is dim enough to tar a whole community with the same brush. But how do you talk about a certain community without mentioning it? From now on should we write 'certain sections of an anonymous community'? The problem is amongst this community only. In all of the different towns it is the same community- not all of them I know, but that community never the less. Not the Jewish community, not the West Indian community, not the Chinese community or any other community. It is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

Absolutely disgusting if that is true. I am from a Shia family, and in south london so we are very much a sub-community. Again as I said, I'm unsure as to why there was a fear of "political backlash" from Pakistani community. I really don't think there would be mass rallies in support of convicted rapists.

To what extent though is this a genuine "PC" thing as opposed to incompetence, laziness etc from a clearly inept social services, police and council in Rotherham is another question.

If the perpetrators are predominantly Pakistani then say so, whatever helps shine a light on this issue and possibly save children then by all means do it.
I am of the opinion that members of the Pakistani community would help in bringing some of those folks to justice.

 

[Redlambs]

Absolutely disgusting if that is true. I am from a Shia family, and in south london so we are very much a sub-community. Again as I said, I'm unsure as to why there was a fear of "political backlash" from Pakistani community. I really don't think there would be mass rallies in support of convicted rapists.

To what extent though is this a genuine "PC" thing as opposed to incompetence, laziness etc from a clearly inept social services, police and council in Rotherham is another question.

It's not the mass rally they are afraid of though, surely no one thinks the pakistan communities (for example) would?

There's strong political pressure in these areas and a lot is known about but is failed to be addressed because politics works like that. For example it isn't just birmingham that has a problem with schools, I know for a fact of two in east London where the teachers and heads are under increasingly stronger pressure from a large and growing part of the community in exactly the same way those birmingham ones were, but nothing is being done and people are scared to speak out. Local families do everything they can to avoid those schools, not due to racism (there's plenty of people in that culture who oppose what is happening too, this isn't an us and them situation at all), but due to fear. It's a real thing, it's happening more and more, and it's the frustration that is causing things to boil over.

 

[Redlambs]

If the perpetrators are predominantly Pakistani then say so, whatever helps shine a light on this issue and possibly save children then by all means do it.
I am of the opinion that members of the Pakistani community would help in bringing some of those folks to justice.

Of course they would. It seems like a soundbite, but just because these scum are pakistani it doesn't mean every single one is a bad person.

I'm willing to bet though, that a lot of people feel pressure in the same way those police have done. I know I have. That doesn't excuse them either, what they have done is gross negligence and should be punished, but it really isn't as simple as speaking out in a lot of situations.

The fact is this shouldn't be allowed to be used as a vehicle for agenda driven morons, if anything it should drive people closer together. But then I'm dreaming there aren't I?

 

[Dante]

If the perpetrators are predominantly Pakistani then say so, whatever helps shine a light on this issue and possibly save children then by all means do it.
I am of the opinion that members of the Pakistani community would help in bringing some of those folks to justice.

The issue isn't that we should avoid saying the perpetrators are from the Pakistani community. The issue is about overreaching from this initial point to come up with weird, wonderful and patronising theories about how those communities are inherently bad.

 

[Redlambs]

The issue isn't saying the perpetrators are from the Pakistani community. The issue is about overreaching from that point and coming up with weird, wonderful and patronising theories about how those communities are inherently evil.

The problem is also dismissing everything out of hand though and trying to ridicule genuine concerns.

 

[ravi2]

Of course they would. It seems like a soundbite, but just because these scum are pakistani it doesn't mean every single one is a bad person.

I'm willing to bet though, that a lot of people feel pressure in the same way those police have done. I know I have. That doesn't excuse them either, what they have done is gross negligence and should be punished, but it really isn't as simple as speaking out in a lot of situations.

The fact is this shouldn't be allowed to be used as a vehicle for agenda driven morons, if anything it should drive people closer together. But then I'm dreaming there aren't I?

I am thinking the good folks would band together and cast out the molesters, who should then get the death penalty if there is any justice in this world.

 

[ravi2]

The issue isn't that we should avoid saying the perpetrators are from the Pakistani community. The issue is about overreaching from this initial point to come up with weird, wonderful and patronising theories about how those communities are inherently bad.

I dont think anyone is saying the whole communities are bad, that will solve nothing.
I dont understand how apparently the whole area was corrupt... from the police to the locals.... who hides child molesters?!?

 

[Redlambs]

I am thinking the good folks would band together and cast out the molesters, who should then get the death penalty if there is any justice in this world.

Maybe one of our resident posters far more clued up in this area could tell us?

For example, in Pakistani culture how keen would normal people be to expose their own? Obviously that's not suggesting they'd hide it deliberately or even not see the evils there, I'm thinking more in terms of how outspoken people generally are and if there's anything that might hold them back?

 

[Dante]

The problem is also dismissing everything out of hand though and trying to ridicule genuine concerns.

True. You need action from both the authorities and the community itself. You can't achieve anything without respecting both.

 

[Redlambs]

I dont think anyone is saying the whole communities are bad, that will solve nothing.
I dont understand how apparently the whole area was corrupt... from the police to the locals.... who hides child molesters?!?

Clearly a lot of people do.

 

[ravi2]

Clearly a lot of people do.

I will never understand that.
I have to reiterate, child molesters should get the death penalty, no questions.

 

[Wolverine]

Completely agree. And this is my point, there is so much we all don't talk about through one fear or another and it's frankly incredibly poor especially in this day and age.

One thing it is worth noting though, that as a white male I find it more and more tough to talk about these things through fear of being labelled racist or a ukip voter or daily mail reader. It's a bigger problem than most realise, it isn't just limited to minorities and different cultures, and that is really driving a lot of people to do stupid things like protest vote ukip.

There certainly is, even on here, an undercurrent of if you speak about some imigration or race issue that affects you, you instantly get fobbed off or the focus shifted. It's not the case when talk of racism comes up though.

It's a strange and sad situation, but not an irreversible one. I firmly believe the only way to deal with all this and move forward is communication all round, but I can tell you from personal experience, I do find myself being very careful what I say and do as the threat of being called racist merely for speaking up in my line of work is certainly ever present. I know a lot of different people in different occupations who would say the same. It's such a wrong situation, though I agree that it should be criminal that these people have kept quiet about this for that long. Hopefully this leads to us seeing the full extent of a shift in this regard, but somehow I think there's a lot more hidden.

Again like I said, that shouldn't happen. I think there are genuine racists out there (perhaps more likely to be of the ukip voting, daily mail reading type) perhaps but calling for there to be accountability and justice for rape victims isn't that.

I don't mind the spotlight being on communities, as long as it is fair and as I said we don't blow things out of proportion. There are nearly 3 million Muslims in the UK, many of whom too have to watch what they say too. I remember getting a sausage roll through my letterbox and not telling my parents as I did not want to worry them. There are concerns for us too, the guys being thought of as anti-semitic misogynist, potential-ISIS-joining rapists.

There's a lot to be thankful for for us being more PC as a society. I think appreciating nuance, being thoughtful and measured in what we say is a good thing but I certainly don't want to be part of a society that leads to kids being raped because people are scared of being called racist. And I'd imagine the majority of people in the country agree with me.

 

[Wolverine]

Maybe one of our resident posters far more clued up in this area could tell us?

For example, in Pakistani culture how keen would normal people be to expose their own? Obviously that's not suggesting they'd hide it deliberately or even not see the evils there, I'm thinking more in terms of how outspoken people generally are and if there's anything that might hold them back?

There might be close family members or people in their inner circle not wanting to. A significant amount of guys exposed for terrorism-related offenses were exposed by their own communities/friends/families though. Each community/sub-community is different though. No 2 people think the same thing or act the same, is why I think its important not to have generalities.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I dont think anyone is saying the whole communities are bad, that will solve nothing.
I dont understand how apparently the whole area was corrupt... from the police to the locals.... who hides child molesters?!?

Community relations were/are at an all time low. If South Yorkshire police start knocking down doors and dragging Pakistani men and only Pakistani men out of their homes and charging them with raping and forcibly prostituting under age white girls, then my bet is the place goes up in flames. Or are we all going to pretend that could never happen?

 

[ravi2]

Community relations were/are at an all time low. If South Yorkshire police start knocking down doors and dragging Pakistani men and only Pakistani men out of their homes and charging them with raping and forcibly prostituting under age white girls, then my bet is the place goes up in flames. Or are we all going to pretend that could never happen?

That could very easily happen, if the arrests seem to be just random targeting of pakistanis.
If the police stick to the letter of the law and build their case and present evidence, that risk could be negated.

 

[Lothar]

Community relations were/are at an all time low. If South Yorkshire police start knocking down doors and dragging Pakistani men and only Pakistani men out of their homes and charging them with raping and forcibly prostituting under age white girls, then my bet is the place goes up in flames. Or are we all going to pretend that could never happen?

The police and politicians appears to have thought it could happen. So much so that they put an investigation concerning 1400 molested girls in jeopardy. I read someplace that a father was arrested for trying to bring one his daughters back from one of these dungeons. Madness, absolute madness.

 

[Wolverine]

Community relations were/are at an all time low. If South Yorkshire police start knocking down doors and dragging Pakistani men and only Pakistani men out of their homes and charging them with raping and forcibly prostituting under age white girls, then my bet is the place goes up in flames. Or are we all going to pretend that could never happen?

There were 5 men arrested in 2010. Tried and convicted. If there is probably cause then absolutely people should be arrested. I really don't think the place would have gone up in flames at all. This isn't something like the Bradford riots. Again if there is criminality it doesn't matter where the person is from.

PC ness we really only ask for to not have the EDL, Britain First types thinking we're trying to take over the country and implement Sharia Law. And also not to have people we know thrown into Guantanamo Bay without due process. That kind of thing.

 

[Wolverine]

It's not the mass rally they are afraid of though, surely no one thinks the pakistan communities (for example) would?

There's strong political pressure in these areas and a lot is known about but is failed to be addressed because politics works like that. For example it isn't just birmingham that has a problem with schools, I know for a fact of two in east London where the teachers and heads are under increasingly stronger pressure from a large and growing part of the community in exactly the same way those birmingham ones were, but nothing is being done and people are scared to speak out. Local families do everything they can to avoid those schools, not due to racism (there's plenty of people in that culture who oppose what is happening too, this isn't an us and them situation at all), but due to fear. It's a real thing, it's happening more and more, and it's the frustration that is causing things to boil over.

What should happen in cases like that with schools is Ofsted publishing honest reports about those schools. They did so this time highlighting the clear deficiencies those school had. There probably is concerted effort for political ends that exploits the PC culture our country has and I can imagine how frustrating that must be. We need institutions to be above politics. It's not easy of course granted. I think inter-faith, inter-community dialogue on these kinds of key issues is something we need more of and not just the usual empty sound bytes on Question Time by agenda-driven polemicists. Agree with you there.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

There were 5 men arrested in 2010. Tried and convicted. If there is probably cause then absolutely people should be arrested. I really don't think the place would have gone up in flames at all. This isn't something like the Bradford riots. Again if there is criminality it doesn't matter where the person is from.

PC ness we really only ask for to not have the EDL, Britain First types thinking we're trying to take over the country and implement Sharia Law. And also not to have people we know thrown into Guantanamo Bay without due process. That kind of thing.

I'm not so sure but we won't ever know either way now.


Just as a matter of interest do you think these organisations just invented the pressure they felt or would you allow that there could well have been real cause for their reticence? Not justification for everything that happened but never the less. I guess I’m asking what you think about how misplaced their view of the Pakistani community is and how that view might have come into being?


(Their being the organisations in question)

 

[evra]

I fear that these men have grown up looking on white women as "Kafir" (non-believers and therefore basically animals). That way their sexual frustrations, borne out of the restrictive nature of Islam, lead them to perpetrate these horrific crimes. I could be wrong, and I know it's not PC to say that, but it kind of makes sense, no? Obviously this isn't every Muslim man, but it's hard to ignore the disproportionate amount of Pakistani men involved in these cases.

 

[surf]

Part of the solution is for the community to learn to police itself to follow laws and cultural norms, and not tolerate crime and anti-social behaviour. How many of the local police, teachers and social workers are Pakistani?

What also helps is more heterogeneous communities. Uniracial poor neighbourhoods are dysfunctional.

 

[Agent Red]

I fear that these men have grown up looking on white women as "Kafir" (non-believers and therefore basically animals). That way their sexual frustrations, borne out of the restrictive nature of Islam, lead them to perpetrate these horrific crimes. I could be wrong, and I know it's not PC to say that, but it kind of makes sense, no? Obviously this isn't every Muslim man, but it's hard to ignore the disproportionate amount of Pakistani men involved in these cases.

I think it's definitely a point worthy of discussion at least. I'm generally pretty signed up to being 'PC' but cases like this transcend political correctness and the worst outcome is for the causes and solutions not to be discussed at all because people are worried it will be portrayed as racism or Islamophobia. We should be able to discuss the reasons why these issues might exist more or be underreported within certain cultures without people interpreting that as 'All Pakistani men are child rapists' or whatever.

 

[Jippy]

It would be interesting to see if the people involved were actually born in England or were asylum seekers. I remember seing a woman complaining about asylum seekers being housed near her and I thought what a whinging racist. That is until she said she wondered what they were seeking asylum from. Could it have been the police in their own country?

Even writing that I feel like I may be labelled as a racist. I can understand their reluctance to report some things.

Not sure the asylum system is designed to shelter foreign paedos from their local police.