Robin van Persie

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Was he not ready last season? He was number 1 then and we scored an absolute bucketload of goals. Why was he ready then but wouldn't be now? For some reason I happen to think playing for this club most weeks is more likely to make you a "much better player" than sitting on the bench watching Robin Van Persie play in your place. And for feck's sake, of course I realise how much better than Van Persie is now, but there's no reason Danny Welbeck can't go on to be as good a striker over the next few years if we give him the chance.

And finally yes, if a keeper had played four matches at a major international football tournament in addition to an entire season as first choice keeper for Manchester United, then he'd be more experienced.
 
Chabon said:
Welbeck just went to a major international tournament and was first choice striker for one of the better teams at that tournament at the age of 21. The only reason he's not the most exciting CF of his age in Europe is because of that obscenely talented lunatic they have down the road. He is at least on a par with where Scholesy was at that age.

So the point stands, does anyone wish we'd signed a world class footballer to replace Scholes when he was on the cusp of greatness?
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England were nowhere near being one of the best at Euro2012 and as much as I rate Welbeck he is not anywhere near the level Paul Scholes was at in 1995.

Have a word with yourself FFS
 
Is that how you think players develop and learn from others? By just sitting on the bench and watching them?

Look at what Hernandez did in his first season, did he look like that last season? No he didn't. Why is Welbeck all of a sudden going to score goals every week? He needs to develop.

I can't agree with you that a few matches at International level and a season at United would give you more experience than 2 seasons as number 1 at a European club, including a European super cup win against Inter which included a 90th minute penalty save against Milito and a win in the Europa League final against a PL team. Whilst captaining your countries U21 side to victory in 2011. Buying in experience was the best choice, like it will be up front.
 
England were at least in the top six at the tournament. They were a fecking disgrace to the idea of the beautiful game, but they were definitely in the upper half.

And people on here are massively overrating the player Scholesy was in his early 20s. Understandable, considering most didn't support United back then. He didn't even become a regular for club or country (or eclipse Nicky) until 97/98.
 
Chabon said:
I'm sorry you think it laughable to prefer Manchester United's first choice striker be a local lad that came through the ranks rather than an ageing world class striker we've pinched from another huge club due to that player's greed. Personally, I think it's what any United fan should prefer, but I guess I'm weird like that.
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Yeah, you are.
 
njred said:
If united get Van Persie from ARSENAL and don't win the league, then ferguson should be sacked. This isn't LIVERPOOL getting Carroll . It's united getting the best player in the league( formwise) last season.
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:lol:
 
Chabon said:
England were at least in the top six at the tournament. They were a fecking disgrace to the idea of the beautiful game, but they were definitely in the upper half.

And people on here are massively overrating the player Scholesy was in his early 20s. Understandable, considering most didn't support United back then. He didn't even become a regular for club or country (or eclipse Nicky) until 97/98.
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England were at least in the top six at the tournament. :wenger:
 
Chabon said:
In 1996? Was he feck 'light years' ahead of Welbeck. He wasn't even a first team regular yet, and didn't get an England cap until the Summer of 1997. As for Welbeck not getting in that time ahead of Cole, perhaps not, but he scored as many goals last season as Cole managed in that one.

As if you have any clear memories of mid-90s United anyway.
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I don't think that's really a fair barometer there. England used to have a much better team than they do now, they've been on the slide for years. If people like Jordan Henderson and Andy Carroll are getting caps, the young Paul Scholes would have walked into this England team. Steve Bruce never got a senior cap with England, to the best of my knowledge, and he was much better than Gary Cahill is now (as well as the John Terry from last season). Even players like Robbie Fowler and Andy Cole didn't get that many caps. Danny Welbeck, as he is now, would not have had a hope in hell of getting into an England team back then, not a chance at all.

He wouldn't have got many games for us then either (with Cantona, Cole and Solskjaer ahead of him) but that's a different debate.
 
It's a fair point that England used to be much better, but it doesn't change the fact that the 21 year old Paul Scholes was merely a very promising youngster, hardly the ginger Messi people seem to be suggesting.

Hectic said:
Yeah, you are.
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On here, sure. Amongst local, match-going fans, I'm not so sure that the statement:

I'm sorry you think it laughable to prefer Manchester United's first choice striker be a local lad that came through the ranks rather than an ageing world class striker we've pinched from another huge club due to that player's greed

...would be considered 'weird'.

Sonny1972 said:
England were at least in the top six at the tournament. :wenger:
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Well, they were literally one of the top eight, and they also won their group, which none of the other defeated quarter finalists managed. Were France, Greece and the Czechs better?
 
From elnorte in the newbies.

Hey

Since you're already arguing with him regarding RVP and Welbeck, can you communicate to him publicly that

Welbeck just went to a major international tournament and was first choice striker for one of the better teams at that tournament at the age of 21.
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and

England were at least in the top six at the tournament. They were a fecking disgrace to the idea of the beautiful game, but they were definitely in the upper half.
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are the two stupidest comments made in the thread so far by a considerable distance.

Thanks.
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For what it's worth I disagree with him. For me it comes in just behind

If united get Van Persie from ARSENAL and don't win the league, then ferguson should be sacked. This isn't LIVERPOOL getting Carroll . It's united getting the best player in the league( formwise) last season.
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Sorry I didn't mean you were weird in the context of that statement, just weird, overall.
 
Also I'm not sure "local match going fans" aren't going to be excited that we win the league because we do it with Van Persie.
 
I wonder if these match going fans cheer the foreign/non local players we've bought from other clubs that keep local lads from the ranks out of the team or whether they sit there pissed off when Rooney/Berbatov/Hernandez score because Welbeck hasn't had the chance.
 
Okay, so would either you or your new BFF care to explain which teams, aside from the obvious four, were better at that tournament than England? Their football was abominable, but what of it? If anything, England's hilariously retrograde style of play makes Danny's excellent performance even the tournament even more notable.
 
England top six in the tournament? France are miles better, yes. I wonder if you now think Andy Carroll's price tag is justified because of his place in the great tournament side of England?
 
Chabon said:
And for feck's sake, of course I realise how much better than Van Persie is now, but there's no reason Danny Welbeck can't go on to be as good a striker over the next few years if we give him the chance.
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Check this out for a crazy out there theory. What if we get Van Persie in now, who is far better than Welbeck currently, and continue to develop Welbeck to have just as good a striker as we would have had over the next few years. Mental I know.
 
This RvP thread is so messed up these days. Can't we just get back to muppetry?
 
Chabon said:
Okay, so would either you or your new BFF care to explain which teams, aside from the obvious four, were better at that tournament than England? Their football was abominable, but what of it? If anything, England's hilariously retrograde style of play makes Danny's excellent performance even the tournament even more notable.
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He played 4 games and scored 1 goal. Including the qualifiers 5 appearances and 1 goal. I'm not sure what kind of Fifa World Player of the Year calibre tournament you think he had.
 
Chabon just wants to see local talent succeed at United, I don't think there's anything wrong with his premise. Even if we buy Van Persie that doesn't spell the end for Wellbeck though...he'd simply be third choice...but he'd still get enough games at United. He's only 21 for crying out loud.
 
Spoony Kobayashi said:
Chabon just wants to see local talent succeed at United, I don't think there's anything wrong with his premise. Even if we buy Van Persie that doesn't spell the end for Wellbeck though...he'd simply be third choice...but he'd still get enough games at United. He's only 21 for crying out loud.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with seeing local talent suceed either, but I don't understand wanting a player who is far from the finished product being thrust into the number 1 spot week in week out, over someone who is the finished product, who could do a better job for us whilst at the same time letting the local talent develop and mature into a better player benefitting massively from having him at the club.

It's like if VP comes, Welbeck won't ever play again which is far from reality.
 
Spoony Kobayashi said:
Chabon just wants to see local talent succeed at United, I don't think there's anything wrong with his premise. Even if we buy Van Persie that doesn't spell the end for Wellbeck though...he'd simply be third choice...but he'd still get enough games at United. He's only 21 for crying out loud.
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He'd likely be 4th choice for our two forward positions - behind Kagawa, RvP and Morissey.
 
It's been repeatedly driven home to me on this forum that being hugely excited about Danny Welbeck, despite him being one of the most talented young strikers in world football makes me some kind of weirdo. That's fine, as it goes, and I guess I'll stop discussing that excitement on this Manchester United supporter's forum.

However I have literally never met a fan who supports their local team who doesn't think that watching a local lad excel is amongst the very best things about following football. The sport is a fecking joke these days, pissing loads of money I don't have up the wall to watch it seems increasingly futile, and Danny's emergence is probably the most reaffirming to have happened for years. Anything that potentially undermines his career, and my ability to enjoy watching him play for United, is of huge concern to me. I've little interest in being mocked for that concern, and seeing supposed United fans downplay Welbeck's massive potential.

Spoony Kobayashi said:
Chabon just wants to see local talent succeed at United, I don't think there's anything wrong with his premise. Even if we buy Van Persie that doesn't spell the end for Wellbeck though...he'd simply be third choice...but he'd still get enough games at United. He's only 21 for crying out loud.
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Just to be absolutely clear on this, with his contract dispute in mind, if Danny is dropped from the first team after the season he's just had I strongly suspect he'll leave.
 
Chabon said:
It's been repeatedly driven home to me on this forum that being hugely excited about Danny Welbeck, despite him being one of the most talented young strikers in world football makes me some kind of weirdo. That's fine, as it goes, and I guess I'll stop discussing that excitement on this Manchester United supporter's forum and leave people to circlejerk about us potentially abandoning our principles and aping our disgusting rivals.

However I have literally never met a fan who supports their local team who doesn't think that watching a local lad excel is amongst the very best things about following football. The sport is a fecking joke these days, pissing loads of money I don't have up the wall to watch it seems increasingly futile, and Danny's emergence is probably the most reaffirming to have happened for years. Anything that potentially undermines his career, and my ability to enjoy watching him play for United, is of huge concern to me. I've little interest in being mocked for that concern, and seeing supposed United fans downplay Welbeck's massive potential.
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It's just that most people don't think it's as clear cut as that. Getting RvP isn't the end of Welbeck, not by any means. And most people think our short/medium-term success can be ensured by getting van Persie, while still developing Welbeck.

It's not all black and white. If I were the manager, I would probably play Welbeck as first choice. But I'm not, and I'll still wank myself senseless if van Persie signs.

Macheda, and possibly Hernandez, should start to worry if we do sign RvP though. The road to first team opportunities would seem very long in that case for those two.
 
Robin van Persie is a player we can do without. I'd much rather Sign younger players who have got it all to prove than proven players - as good as van Persie is.

Does make much sense this deal for me.
 
Chabon said:
It's been repeatedly driven home to me on this forum that being hugely excited about Danny Welbeck, despite him being one of the most talented young strikers in world football makes me some kind of weirdo. That's fine, as it goes, and I guess I'll stop discussing that excitement on this Manchester United supporter's forum.

However I have literally never met a fan who supports their local team who doesn't think that watching a local lad excel is amongst the very best things about following football. The sport is a fecking joke these days, pissing loads of money I don't have up the wall to watch it seems increasingly futile, and Danny's emergence is probably the most reaffirming to have happened for years. Anything that potentially undermines his career, and my ability to enjoy watching him play for United, is of huge concern to me. I've little interest in being mocked for that concern, and seeing supposed United fans downplay Welbeck's massive potential.



Just to be absolutely clear on this, with his contract dispute in mind, if Danny is dropped from the first team after the season he's just had I strongly suspect he'll leave.
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He'd be crazy to, let's just presume for a second we've bought Persie, does that mean Wellbeck won't get any games or even VP will remain injury free? And where would he go? As I said, he's only a kid, now had he been 25 it would've been a different story. But I don't disagree with you, nowt better than local talent succeeding at the top.
 
It's not so much about his age as his career path, as it were. If it was last summer and we'd signed Van Persie then it wouldn't be such a worry, but last season was his breakthrough. To take two steps back from that, in the last year of his contract, well, he wouldn't human (or the footballing equivalent) if it didn't make him ponder the offers that his agent is surely already getting. The daft thing is that even if we dont sign Van Persie I expect Danny to spend more time on the bench, with Kagawa's arrival offering us new options tactically, but Kagawa and Van Persie will knock his place in the pecking order back to something like Berbatov's last season.

Obviously I'm excessively paranoid about all this, and putting too much stock in Welbeck as some kind of redemptive force, but if he does leave then feck, what's the point?
 
If he leaves because one striker comes in, then it'll just mean he's not up to the challenge. He's beaten out both Berbatov and Hernandez; if he has the talent and balls to succeed at United, he'll have no problem with one addition upfront.
 
1. RvP's arrival would benefit rather than thwart Welbeck's development. Training and playing along side both Rooney and RvP will have a tremendous impact on Danny.

2. The idea that Welbeck would leave because RvP arrives is utterly falacious and is probably being used as a scare tactic on other fans who have recently read about Welbeck's contract negotiations. In truth, there's nothing to suggest he will leave. I suspect he's a competitor and will raise his game because of the fantastic talent he trains and plays with.
 
Dont see much wrong with Chabon wanting a local lad to succeed.

Anyway, if we hadn't have signed Kagawa, I would've been all for this transfer, but now we do have Kagawa, how would we play Rooney, RvP and Kagawa in the same team? Even if Rooney/Kagawa played on the wing, then we'd have to drop one of Nani or Valencia, which would be crazy. I know depth is essential, but there is a fine line between depth and overstaffed(for want of a better word!)
 
Let's face it, in nearly all other circumstances a player of RVP's quality would not be attainable for Man United these days.

We just don't pay the fees required to sign top players, as Fergie has said himself. However, with one year on his contract and relatively low competition from just City and Juve we may find value here.
 
KingMinger22 said:
Let's face it, in nearly all other circumstances a player of RVP's quality would not be attainable for Man United these days.

We just don't pay the fees required to sign top players, as Fergie has said himself. However, with one year on his contract and relatively low competition from just City and Juve we may find value here.
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Do you ever stop?
 
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