Roughly 3 years ago Fergie and Mourinho attended a seminar and got asked about their dream signings, I can't remember exactly what Mourinho said but Fergie answered Van Persie. Fergie has numerous times not given up on signing players that he has always wanted like Blanc,Larsson,Berbatov,Van der Sar etc etc so that's one of the reasons I think that there is a small chance this might happen. The other reason is because Wenger and the Arsenal board seem to be sick of City tapping up their best players and they might be tempted to screw City over by selling RVP to United instead. Still I think there is a 75% chance he ends up at City in the end since money talks and United can't match their insane wages.
Robin van Persie
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Yeah he would, but Welbeck wouldn't be far off. Both would be starting the bare minimum of games if Van Persie was signed.
We should just merge every single thread in the football forum into one big mega-thread and call it United Midfield Discussion. It's what every thread reverts to anyway.
Nah, Welbeck might still get a fair share of games, but not as many as he would get with no strikers coming in.
And fit. With our rotten luck he would catch a career-ending injury just after he has sing a contract with us.
What is funny, is that his next club is City (5/4), United about (9/4) then Juve around 7/2. But 'Club after the summer transfer window' has United as favourite.
Also worth noting that Hazard was favourite (odds on I think) to join us at one point, and City for most of the transfer window.
I'd actually love him here I think, partly cos he's not at City, and we'd have a world class striker (better than Rooney IMO), although it would be to the detriment of Welbeck and Hernandez. That said, with his advancing age I imagine he'd be rested for a few of the smaller games so it wouldn't be so bad.
Will it happen though? Not a chance imo.
If we are spending £20m on him, I rather he signs a contract with us than sing it!
Would be a funny press conference to watch though.
No he really wouldn't man.
How many games do you expect Kagawa to get? He only missed 5 league games for Dortmund last year and had a prolific season. Considering how good he is it's conservative to expect him to start just half of our games, so 20ish in the league.
Van Persie started 37 for Arsenal last season, Rooney started 32 for United. So if they start 30 each then that's 80 games for the three of them, which is already more than the total number of forward starting places for all our league games, which is 76.
So effectively at Kagawa - 20, Van Persie - 30, Rooney - 30, that is leaving Welbeck/Hernandez - -4 games. Negative games ffs, and those aren't by any means ridiculous figures. If we were going off how many they started last year, then it would be 100 games for those three, so -24 for Welbeck and Hernandez!
Anyway, for arguments sake lets lower the numbers even more. Rooney is always around 30 games, so that figure isn't going to change i.e. he won't be sitting on the bench for multiple games if he's fit. So we'd have to drop Van Persie's starts to give Welbeck and Hernandez some games. And possibly Kagawa's, although signing such an exciting player who is capable of going straight into the first team, and then leaving him out for 65%-70% of our games is just madness.
Anyway, make it Kagawa - 15, Rooney - 30, Van Persie - 20. That leaves 11 starts for Hernandez and Welbeck, so if Hernandez gets 3, then that leaves Danny with 8.
He started 23 last year..
Kagawa could well play in a central midfield position. I wouldn't rule this out. Meaning extra games available for our other strikers, given that Rooney and RVP would be our first choice partnership, were we to sign the latter.
Bearing in mind we have cup competitions too Theon. You're also assuming that everyone stays injury and suspension-free all season. Kagawa may take a bit of bedding in. I don't think it's too far out to suggest that between them that there'd be 30 league games to play for either Welbeck/Hernandez. Nor is it too far off to suggest that at least one (if not two or even all three) would be rested for five UCL games, most if not all the Carling Cup run, and at least a couple of FA Cup games.
I agree with your point in principal, that Hernandez and Welbeck wouldn't start as many games, and that could be detrimental to their development, but it's not like they wouldn't play at all; Fergie's policy of squad rotation has been used as long as I can remember. The FA Cup semi final replay in 99 had Scholes, Cole, Yorke and maybe even Giggs missing, Solksjaer, Sheringham, Butt and Blomqvist I think played.
I agree with your point in principal, that Hernandez and Welbeck wouldn't start as many games, and that could be detrimental to their development, but it's not like they wouldn't play at all; Fergie's policy of squad rotation has been used as long as I can remember. The FA Cup semi final replay in 99 had Scholes, Cole, Yorke and maybe even Giggs missing, Solksjaer, Sheringham, Butt and Blomqvist I think played.
Neither of Hernandez or Welbeck can expect to be 1st or 2nd choice at United, that would be Rooney and VP if he came and Berba left. Just like Rooney/Berba, just like Rooney/Tevez. It would then be for them both to develop. 23-30 games a year isn't your typical 'development' it's 'established first team.' The fact they played so much last year doesn't mean they have to play so many games every season. There should always be 2 main strikers with some up and coming players behind in the pecking order. Not 1.
Also you can't really put Kagawa a midfielder in there in terms of starts as a forward. That's like saying we shouldn't sign a CM because it will limit Jones development.
Also you can't really put Kagawa a midfielder in there in terms of starts as a forward. That's like saying we shouldn't sign a CM because it will limit Jones development.
Yeah it really is mate,
If Welbeck and Hernandez have 30, that would leave 46 for everyone else.
So what? Rooney starts 20, RVP starts 15 and Kagawa starts 11? Kagawa would then be starting significantly less than Hernandez and Welbeck and RVP would be starting the same as them.
Not gonna happen.
I think a move for van Persie to us is not wide of the mark. Fergie has spoken highly of him before, former players (Steve Bruce) have said that ''a van Persie-Rooney partnership would be mouthwatering''.
Van Persie
Nani - Rooney - Valencia
Van Persie
Nani - Rooney - Valencia
Hernandez
Young - Welbeck - Kagawa
Young - Welbeck - Kagawa
People get too worried about giving everyone games. If we do well in the cups, there will be more than enough games to keep everyone happy. There have been times in the last few years where, despite having such a large squad, we were forced to gamble in cup games to keep our players fresh. Not to mention our luck with injuries.
Nothing wrong with having 4 strikers (assuming Berbatov leaves). It might even allow us to drop Rooney when he goes through his annual "turn to shit" period.
Nothing wrong with having 4 strikers (assuming Berbatov leaves). It might even allow us to drop Rooney when he goes through his annual "turn to shit" period.
Heh. If you told a gooner this summer two years back that Van Persie would start so many games in any given season that other strikers in the squad wouldn't get a look in they'd laugh in your face. Either that or cry.
We have two main, proven forwards, Kagawa and Rooney.
Signing Van Persie would be three, and completely take away any chance of our younger strikers getting games.
Also, you are massively underrating Welbeck IMO. I'd have no issue with him being one of our main strikers, he was great last year and will improve even more this season.
You're just worried he'll sign and your crock bock will come back to haunt you.
I haven't followed Kagawa before United but was always under the impression he was a midfielder and not a forward. I'd say that Rooney/VP would be the 2 forwards and Kagawa will play CM or out wide.
I also don't see why two young players as part of their development should get 30 starts between them. That's excessive IMO.
That first part is just an extremely vague dismissal of the point, 'oooh theres enough for everyone, the cups, the cups!'.
Your other point, we have 4 forwards already as Kagawa is included in that. Signing RVP would be 5. More importantly though, it's three forwards who could expect to start the majority of games. Niether RVP or Kagawa would be happy missing out on so many games.
Nah, Sir Alex has proved previously that he can rotate 4 attackers. Hernandez will lose out though.
Well no, because there's three spots (potentially) multiplied by 38 league games leaves 114 I think. Rooney and RVP getting 30 each and Kagawa getting 20 leaves 34 games left.
In any case, even when they're not starting games they'll still be getting sub appearances.
I'd stick my neck out and say that if RVP did come (which he won't, invalidating this little wager) that Welbeck and Hernandez would still make 30 appearances (in all competitions) between them, with at least 15 starts in there.
Not really, sort of plays in the hole. He's not a striker if that's what you're thinking, but he is a forward.
What's all this bitching about too many strikers/youngsters not getting games etc....
Rooney 26
Van Persie 28
Chicharito 24
Welbeck 21
50 games + we'll play this season, there has to be rotation. I don't see why people have a problem with this. What if Rooney should get injured for 3 months again?(assuming Berbatov leaves) We'd be left with just Chicho and Welbeck (can't really count Macheda)
It's like to some people on here no club has ever had more than 3 centre forwards. We don't play a 451 that often either, 442 is the way Fergie sees it.
Rooney 26
Van Persie 28
Chicharito 24
Welbeck 21
50 games + we'll play this season, there has to be rotation. I don't see why people have a problem with this. What if Rooney should get injured for 3 months again?(assuming Berbatov leaves) We'd be left with just Chicho and Welbeck (can't really count Macheda)
It's like to some people on here no club has ever had more than 3 centre forwards. We don't play a 451 that often either, 442 is the way Fergie sees it.
You're the only one counting Kagawa as a striker. We actually lost one forward this summer and will most probably lose another, not too outlandish to suggest Fergie might fancy a striker.
We've had 4 strikers in the past and it worked out fine.
Put it this way. I would rather we sign Van Persie for 20m than that Lucas bloke for 38m if it's a toss up between the two
Yeah he is an attacking midfielder, but as I was saying before in this thread he would be a forward for us because he would be playing in one of the two central striker/forward spots, as when he plays there will only be one striker up top. So he's effectively playing the Rooney role.
Him being a 'midfielder' would only be relevant to the number of games out other strikers would get if he was a central midfielder, so allowed us to play two up top. Some people reckon he might play in a midfield two occasionally against the weaker teams, which would then free up another spot up front, but I've accounted for that in my numbers, as he's start more than 15 league games. They are very low, conservative numbers to make a point, in reality it would be higher.
The same for the left wing, he will play a few games there you'd imagine. But that's besides the point really, if he starts 15 games in the hole then that's 15 starting spots away from the 76 total.
Will be interesting to keep an eye out on the formations played in all these games pre-season. I can't see SAF wasting time playign 4312 for no reason, so if he sticks with it could we see...
Rooney--Van Persie
-----Kagawa
??
I have no idea I've never seen him play really.
Since when have we played with three forwards Liam? We play with two.
Or do you think we'll line up,
Van Persie
Nani-Rooney-Kagawa-Valenci
Carrick
Nani-Rooney-Kagawa-Valenci
Carrick
We'll play with two central midfielders like usual, who in the world plays with one fecking centre mid? So that's two forward positons, so 76 overall.
Anyway, we won't sign him unless we offload Berbatov. One striker too many and i would prefer the Bulgarian anytime anyday
Are you sure?
I could see him starting plenty of games Ahead of carrick, behind two strikers. Especially in home games against teams from the bottom half of the table.
I'm counting him as a forward because when he plays we will only use one striker, understand? So when he plays it would be 4 strikers competing for one spot.
Right, I'll be realistic here, and give my opinion, that if everyone stays fit (which, being for United, you're guaranteed not to) and post how many games I'd say each player could start.
38 league games
4 COC games
4 FA Cup games
10 UCL games
Multiplied by 6 (midfielders + strikers) = 56 x 6 = 336 starts.
Carrick - 30
Powell - 5
Cleverley - 15
Scholes - 15
Giggs - 10
Anderson - 15
Nani - 35
Young - 25
Valencia - 35
Kagawa - 30
Hernandez - 15
Welbeck - 15
Rooney - 50
RVP - 40
They're approximations, and it still leaves 6 extra games in there. We could go further in the cups, players could (
) get injured, and I wouldn't say any of those figures are too unrealistic, unless my maths has been way off. And they're starts, so that ignores sub appearances.
And Theon, two strikers, one being a deep lying Rooney, two wingers, both offering defensive support, as they do, one attacking midfielder, one defensive. Kagawa could be the attacking midfielder, assuming the work rate is there from the rest of the team, which with Rooney, Valencia and Nani in, it would be.
38 league games
4 COC games
4 FA Cup games
10 UCL games
Multiplied by 6 (midfielders + strikers) = 56 x 6 = 336 starts.
Carrick - 30
Powell - 5
Cleverley - 15
Scholes - 15
Giggs - 10
Anderson - 15
Nani - 35
Young - 25
Valencia - 35
Kagawa - 30
Hernandez - 15
Welbeck - 15
Rooney - 50
RVP - 40
They're approximations, and it still leaves 6 extra games in there. We could go further in the cups, players could (
) get injured, and I wouldn't say any of those figures are too unrealistic, unless my maths has been way off. And they're starts, so that ignores sub appearances.And Theon, two strikers, one being a deep lying Rooney, two wingers, both offering defensive support, as they do, one attacking midfielder, one defensive. Kagawa could be the attacking midfielder, assuming the work rate is there from the rest of the team, which with Rooney, Valencia and Nani in, it would be.
Sorry Fergie.
There's no way we would stick with a 4-3-1-2 long term when we have three of the best wingers in the country. It was just a matter of Fergie trying to fit players into the team for a pre-season friendly. Wouldn't read much into it.
Yeah I said that in my second paragraph of the post you quoted, I agree, also he will play left wing in some games.
But that will be the minority and it doesn't change the fact that when he'll be playing his proper role, we will only play one striker.
Like I said though, I took account of that when posting their number of starts. In truth he'll probably start 25ish games. My thoughts were that 15 would be in the hole, 8ish central midfield and 3ish on the left wing.
The argument on whether he's a foward or not is only that when he plays in the hole, so for those 15 games, he is taking away a striker spot.
So the 76 starting spots gets reduced to 61, i.e. 30 Rooney, 25 RVP, 6 for Welbeck/Hernandez.
Me too.
Post how many they will all start.
Well, in a normal season we play about 55 games, so that's 110 starts for two strikers.
If Rooney starts 40, van Persie 35, Kagawa 20 and Welbeck 15, that's 110. Add another 5-10 games each for Welbeck and Kagawa in other positions + sub appearanbes, and there's enough games for all four.
Right, I'll be realistic here, and give my opinion, that if everyone stays fit (which, being for United, you're guaranteed not to) and post how many games I'd say each player could start.
38 league games
4 COC games
4 FA Cup games
10 UCL games
Multiplied by 6 (midfielders + strikers) = 56 x 6 = 336 starts.
Carrick - 30
Powell - 5
Cleverley - 15
Scholes - 15
Giggs - 10
Anderson - 15
Nani - 35
Young - 25
Valencia - 35
Kagawa - 30
Hernandez - 15
Welbeck - 15
Rooney - 50
RVP - 40
They're approximations, and it still leaves 6 extra games in there. We could go further in the cups, players could (
And Theon, two strikers, one being a deep lying Rooney, two wingers, both offering defensive support, as they do, one attacking midfielder, one defensive. Kagawa could be the attacking midfielder, assuming the work rate is there from the rest of the team, which with Rooney, Valencia and Nani in, it would be.
I don't know where to start Liam.
Taking your 56 games, that gives 112 starts for two strikers/forwards.
You have Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck making 120
. So even without factoring in Kagawa, you are already 8 over ffs. So if Kagawa makes 2/3's of his starts in his actual position off the striker, and not shoehorned into centre midfield, then that gives you a total of 140.
So 140 starts for a maximum 112...
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