"not a clever way to play" 
Robin van Persie
- Thread starter ben_foster
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That's what I'm saying though, there will be opportunities for these players in the Champions League, there always is and always has been, Fergie isn't that kind of manager. I'd also like to say that RvP is not a dead cert to start as far as I am concerned, he has to compete for his place just like anyone else, just like Welbeck had not really been considered a player you would be disappointed to not see in the starting line-up until last season. Not to mention RvP often struggles with his fitness and it's only within the last 18-24 months that he has managed to stay moderately fit so it's not like you can expect him to start every game for us, he will have to be assessed and managed accordingly.
"not a clever way to play"
Giggs is actually as quick as Valencia as of today. He just doesn't think it's a clever thing to run as fast as him. So he doesn't.
A pass that cuts open the defence is always a better choice than beating a man and having to take on two more to get to the goal. Moments of brilliance are amazing, yes, but it's the team that wins and given a choice between a moment of brilliance or a well worked but less spectacular goal, I'd choose the latter. Well worked goals take consistency, cohesion and knowledge of each other's games, it shows the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
It doesn't have to be THAT black and white about dribbling.A player can be good at dribbling as well as other aspects of the game, Rooney wasn't trying to be like Pelé IIRC
Plechazunga I think this might cover other deficiencies in the squad. It would probably be the most feared attack around. That can't be a bad thing as last season I felt if Rooney had a stinker then we struggled to score goals. With RVP around it would help this plus I don't see why it would have to be all negative for Welbeck/Hernandez as they would benefit from playing with two world class strikers and would have less pressure/expectation on them to score.
Obviously I'm assuming they're all fit when I say that. But that's the point. Rooney and Van Persie will want to start a huge portion of our games. Hernandez and Welbeck will expect lesser starts but still too many to fit in, especially given Kagawa will (IMO) become very important to our team. In the end, someone is going to end up being the guy that gets pulled out for the league cup game surrounded by half our reserve team as a consolation for being down the pecking order.
Basically, the treatment Berbatov got last season. Whether it's right or wrong is up for discussion. But it will happen if this transfer goes through.
It will still happen even if this transfer doesn't go through
That's a lot of theoretical bullshit. If Rooney could beat his man consistently he would beat his man consistently rather than pretty much never. Does Iniesta just decide "Nah today I'll just pass and not dribble because it's the sensible thing to do"?. No, you do things when the opportunity opens up. Are you telling me it is ALWAYS the better option for Rooney to pass than to go past his man? Because, again, that's rubbish. If he could he would take his man on a lot.
I personally think he used to be capable as a kid but he isn't anymore. Whether that's confidence or whatever, I don't know, but it's sure as hell not because "dribbling would be unclever". That's the most absurd thing I've heard.
No I think you're all underestimating Fergie's understanding of the importance of games to the development of the likes of Welbeck and Hernandez. They'll get games and frankly as you bring Berbatov up, he's a prime example of Fergie's man management abilities. Berbatov is prone to throwing strops but he stayed quiet and worked hard to try and win a place in our team last season, however unfortunately for him he just couldn't get ahead of Welbeck and Rooney. Hernandez and Welbeck both have completely different attitudes, for example Hernandez is happy to be here and loyal to us because just before he came here he was seriously considering quitting football to work in IT and Welbeck, well he's a local lad. I don't see either of them kicking up a fuss and frankly, I don't think they'll have reason to either.
Possibly. But it's certain to happen if it does. We could just about keep the two strikers happy with Kagawa being versatile enough to play out wide or even in CM, but Van Persie anywhere but right up top would be a waste.
Agreed. Messi does plenty of great passes to split defenses, but he also usually first beats a couple of men to create chaos/open up space/get a more favorable angle before doing so.
He's 'matured'...
I'm dreading for some reason that this will happen to Nani. It'd be such a shame.
Well, the only player who could potentially be hurt by van Persie's arrival would be Hernandez. He couldn't play alongside him and his time from the bench would be even more limited with Kagawa and Welbeck needing some time on the pitch as well. He's only 24 though and has time on his side so he could either wait a couple of years or simply go somewhere where he'd be a regular. After a nearly perfect 2010-11 season he would find plenty of clubs willing to take a chance on him.
Rooney chooses not to dribble as much because he knows he's going to get tackled. This is because he's never been very good at dribbling. Got away with it when he was young because defenders hadn't worked him out and opposition managers didn't base their team tactics around denying him space. He hasn't forgotten how to dribble or somehow got massively worse at it. That makes no sense at all.
@sarni why couldn't hernandez play alongside RVP exactly?
Fergie has successfully kept 4 strikers happy in the squad in the past and given Hernandez attitude I think he's happy to be a squad player
I'd be more worried about Welbeck who, to me has seemed a bit impatient, and his contract is coming up isn't it? (I may be well off the mark about welbeck - its just a gut feeling)
Fergie has successfully kept 4 strikers happy in the squad in the past and given Hernandez attitude I think he's happy to be a squad player
I'd be more worried about Welbeck who, to me has seemed a bit impatient, and his contract is coming up isn't it? (I may be well off the mark about welbeck - its just a gut feeling)
Said it in another thread, but I remember reading in a match day program a few years ago in Ferguson's notes that he felt Rooney was the best player he'd ever seen (or one of them) at turning on a man and running at him, and that he felt he'd lost that somehow in more recent years. He spoke at length about how the United staff were working on getting this back, and there was a clear improvement around about the time that was written (08/09 when he was playing on the wing, but any improvement was quickly lost).
Rooney is definitely more hesitant, and Fergie himself has said as much. Would definitely advise watching him in a few games from that 05/06 season, and comparing the difference between him now and then.
That's a different discussion and one that's been had already.
It's just as important to take your marker out of the equation by moving it away from him first. Forward or backwards.
Because I think van Persie would be more suited to play in a more advanced role with someone behind him, and that's the only role Hernandez will ever be capable of playing. Welbeck and Rooney would be suited to playing behind his back, and obviously Kagawa.
Which makes complete sense. Just like players get better at some things they can get worse at others as well. There's no fixed rule regarding these things as if it's some football manager game.
Anyway, the point being that he isn't a good dribbler, whether he was before is another matter. I just don't understand why someone who is a good dribbler wouldn't ever use it because of prudence. Sure, you can cut down on it as per the situation but to stop dribbling despite being a good dribbler makes zero sense.
And it's not a criticism of Rooney either that he isn't very good out wide. He isn't a winger. He's a striker. And an extremely good one.
Agreed. Dribbling is pretty much the most dangerous attacking attribute a player can have. It would be madness for a player to just curb it randomly.
Ah ha, the "Rooney dribble debate thread", superb!
I love these debates about players we haven't yet signed. I wonder how many hours in total members of the cafe have wasted t discussing players that never signed.
I'm not volunteering to do the research either
I'm not volunteering to do the research either
He's got slower, he lacks that pace over 5-10 yards to get away - that's why he doesn't try to beat players often.
What's to debate? I wasn't even aware that there had been a debate, it surely cannot have been a very long one! He can't dribble, simple as that really, as others have said if he could he would.
It's like having a 'Messi can't dribble' debate. Pointless really, when the answer is so blatantly obvious.
the only thing rooney is dribbling is saliva on his chin or semen on a granny.
I don't know why that would be the case, but it's definitely true imo. He seems to have lost much of that dynamism that made him look such an exciting prospect in his first couple of seasons.
I'd say it's his build. He's definately not as energetic as he used to be. He used to be everywhere and he said himself he doubts he'll last 33/34 because of his size (read that ages ago). Josh King is someone to look out for. RVP won't beat a man either but it don't matter if you're getting goals. We'd all like to see the old Rooney but that's not going to happen. The injuries haven't helped but he's added things to his game.
Guys, let's not make this an discussion about Rooney's dribbling. I only made that comment in relation to someone saying we could use him on the left.
Back to Van Persie, who else seems to be interested in him? Arsenal would surely prefer to sell him to a foreign club.
Back to Van Persie, who else seems to be interested in him? Arsenal would surely prefer to sell him to a foreign club.
Don't think that King is good enough for us. Looked poor at Hull last season.
I'm surprised Real hasn't stated anymore ambition in signing him. I thought they were keen to get him about a year ago.
Probably that deal is off the table as long as they can't sell Higuain, even so I'm not sure if the reports that they wanted to get rid of him were really true.
Right we're back on RVP at least, and I don't know why you've got that idea. RVP is superb at beating players, extremely skilful.
I think it's a bit of both. He used to be great at barrelling past players, but since then he's a) lost a yard of pace, and b) turned into a player who plays the percentages much more (see e.g. his lack of long-range shooting. He doesn't even do the pointless edge-of-the-box chip attempt thing anymore).
I know it's not Van Persie related, but I'm watching Van Nistelrooy's goals on MUTV right at this moment, and the difference in Rooney's dribbling is just so clear. He plays at the moment like he's four times heavier than he was at the time he was setting some of these up.
Do you hype up every single Academy player that exists?
Rumors on twitter that RVP has signed a new contract with Arsenal (@source_football). Hope this is true and we can turn our attention to a CM and LB.
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