I think this signing would emphasize Fergie's desire of winning the Champions League at least once before retiring.
Robin van Persie
- Thread starter ben_foster
- Start date
- Status
I think this signing would emphasize Fergie's desire of winning the Champions League at least once before retiring.
Anyone opposed to signing Van Persie is mental. He's a ridiculously fantastic player. And if the United hierarchy, the most notoriously financially prudent bunch in football, are willing to splurge on him; then it's safe to say the club can afford him.
He brings stellar quality across the attacking line, much needed depth and boy can he take a free kick. Haven't had a proper set piece taker since Beckham. Not sure you can count Ronaldo, his ratio was shocking.
We've talked about having two quality player for every position and RVP helps with that. Strikers and Midfielders you need more of because you want the flexibility to play two up front or three through the middle.
Rooney_________Van Persie___________Nani
__________Kagawa_______Cleverley
________________Carrick
Evra______________________________Rafael
__________Vidic________Ferdinand
_________________DDG
Young___________Welbeck___________Valencia
__________Anderson_______Giggs
_________________Scholes
?____________________________________Jones
__________Smalling________Evans
_________________Lindegaard
Others: Hernandez, Powell, Fletcher??, Petrucci
Yes I'm a big fan of 4-3-3. But having 4 strikers enables us to have 2 up top if we want.
He brings stellar quality across the attacking line, much needed depth and boy can he take a free kick. Haven't had a proper set piece taker since Beckham. Not sure you can count Ronaldo, his ratio was shocking.
We've talked about having two quality player for every position and RVP helps with that. Strikers and Midfielders you need more of because you want the flexibility to play two up front or three through the middle.
Rooney_________Van Persie___________Nani
__________Kagawa_______Cleverley
________________Carrick
Evra______________________________Rafael
__________Vidic________Ferdinand
_________________DDG
Young___________Welbeck___________Valencia
__________Anderson_______Giggs
_________________Scholes
?____________________________________Jones
__________Smalling________Evans
_________________Lindegaard
Others: Hernandez, Powell, Fletcher??, Petrucci
Yes I'm a big fan of 4-3-3. But having 4 strikers enables us to have 2 up top if we want.
In both of these though we are sticking a striker out of position on the wing, where they aren't nearly as effective, just so we can shoehorn Van Perise into the team. Can't comment too much on Van Persie out on the left, but Rooney is severely hampered there. Surely if we are going to play with wingers, we should actually use wingers?
Where does that leave Valencia? Our best attacking player last year, surely he deserves to keep his place?
Its called squad rotation. It's something that Sir Alex has implemented every successful season he's been here, if a player is good enough (and effective enough) he will get enough games. It's as simple as that.
These players all can play in different positions AND Welbeck can play up front as well. I imagine Nani will play on the right as often as on the left when Valencia gets rotated. Kagawa will play centrally when Rooney or RVP (if he signs) are rested. Young is the most threatened of all the players on that list. Welbeck WILL get enough games next year ffs
Hernandez is questionable for starts in the league, but I'd still imagine he'd get plenty of sub and cup appearances. His more limited technical ability makes him more suited for that kind of impact role.
What IS ridiculous that people don't want the best striker in the Premier League out of some weird idea that it will hinder the development of young players.. they will be given enough time to play and mature- rotation and giving young players playing time if they are good enough, while having experienced and influential players who carry the team through tough patches is what the club's Premier League success is fecking built on.
That's my main problem with buying RVP, we just got Kagawa and I can't think of a reasonable way to fit those 3 in the same team. The signing would make sense if we hadn't bought Kagawa already but with him here it seems unneccesary.
Rooney - RVP
Kagawa
Anderson/Cleverley - Carrick - Valencia/Scholes/Cleverley
Kagawa
Anderson/Cleverley - Carrick - Valencia/Scholes/Cleverley
That could work but we would have no width and it would mean leaving out Nani.
Or 4231 with Rooney behind RVP, Kagawa wide left, and Nani/Valencia right.
I was just responding to the hypothetical situation he was talking about. Say that if we were to play a 4-3-3 and use those three up top, it wouldn't be in the order he suggested. Well not for me anyway.
Next season, I think we will be playing 4-2-3-1
(RVP)/Rooney/Welbeck/Hernandez/(Berba)
Nani/Kagawa/Welbeck/Young-------Rooney/Kagawa/Welbeck/Giggs------Valencia/Nani/Welbeck/Young
2 from--Carrick/Scholes/(Fletcher)/Cleverley/Anderson/Giggs/Powell
My feeling is that Sir Alex would like RVP as a top class finished article striker who knows how to lead the line and doesn't have some compulsion to drop into midfield when he hasn't touched the ball for 10 minutes.
(RVP)/Rooney/Welbeck/Hernandez/(Berba)
Nani/Kagawa/Welbeck/Young-------Rooney/Kagawa/Welbeck/Giggs------Valencia/Nani/Welbeck/Young
2 from--Carrick/Scholes/(Fletcher)/Cleverley/Anderson/Giggs/Powell
My feeling is that Sir Alex would like RVP as a top class finished article striker who knows how to lead the line and doesn't have some compulsion to drop into midfield when he hasn't touched the ball for 10 minutes.
As much as I would love to see RVP at Old Trafford there's not a hope in hell Wenger will let him sign for us
Then let's see what VP does.
I don't like this new word "hype" used to describe footballers.
What does it even mean - the hype is too extreme? Does that mean people are just being positive and saying they can go on to become really good players, which is true? Or are people jumping around saying they're the best players ever and piss all over Zidane and Ronaldo?
Anyway..
Sell Rooney
Buy RVP
Buy shiny CM
Welbeck develops
????
Barca passing game
= Profit
-------------ddg--------
Rafael---rio---vidic-----evra
------carrick---ando/clev---
Valencia---rooney/kagawa---nani
----------rvp/welbeck/chica----
Rafael---rio---vidic-----evra
------carrick---ando/clev---
Valencia---rooney/kagawa---nani
----------rvp/welbeck/chica----
Rooney is the best striker in the league.
You just seem to think there is about 100 games in a season Drainy, it's bizzare. You keep vaguely making statements about rotation and how 'there will be enough game time', without making any concrete assertions.
If RVP signs how many games do you think each of Rooney, RVP, Kagawa, Welbeck and Hernandez will start?
Make it out of 50 games, obviously it will be higher but I'm not counting the first rounds of the FA cup or the Carling Cup against Aldershot etc, because seeing as Ferguson uses these opportunities to give our youngsters a game it would be disingenuous to include them.
So, how many?
There's got to be Scholes... He's indispensable
Eh? So Rooney and Kagawa will never play together?
Obviously they will, so you should include him like below
Valencia---rooney/kagawa---nani
----------Rooney/rvp/welbeck/chica----
Well for a start, if we're competing in the first round of the domestic cup comps, then our problems are bigger than we first thought
So in the big games, the must wins, what do we play? Kagawa must start, judging on how he's looked in the Belundesliga and preseason, Rooney has to start too. Then what about RVP? He wont want to sit on the bench for the big games, nor will Valencia or Nani. And that just leaves Welbeck, who looks potentially class, completely out of the picture.
you've just said it yourself. Welbeck is potentially world class where as RVP is world class but regardless if we went for Van Persie I trust Sir Alex would ensure Welbeck got the games.
They have a similar goals record but Van Persie got a similar number of assists to the entire of United's striking line-up combined.
I can't be arsed/ have better things to do than sit here coming up with the number of appearances each player is going to make in each position with the assumption that noone will even get injured or go out of form in a vain attempt to appease someone who's already made up his mind on a subject and will just reject it anyway.
I'll just stick with my point that Welbeck's class and flexibility will see him get more than 30 appearances next year whether we sign RVP or not. Hernandez will make fewer starts, but will still get sub appearances.
But why buy a player, who could potentially get injured and be out for the season, when we have a player who could, and will imo, turn out to be top quality? There's no doubting Van Persies class, but I wouldnt want to get him just to shoehorn him in. We already have a top class striker(Rooney) and a top class secondary striker(Kagawa). On top of that, we have Welbeck who will need games, and Hernandez too. Lets say we signed Van Persie, we were playing City in a must win match tomorrow, and you had to pick the team. What team would you put out?
A team with RVP in it of course
As he always has done with his best young players, as long as they had the right attitude.
Sir Alex loves this kid, he always has done- he was training with the first team at 16/17. He's got his head screwed on and works damn hard, he's a Manchester lad that's a posterboy for our academy.. Fergie isn't going to feck him over now.
All very well, but I don't expect he's coming...
As I said that's just a vague assertion with feck all to back it up. Completely wishful thinking and utterly unrealistic.
So we are still worrying about how many games Welbeck and Hernandez will get and writing up formation and rotation plans? but no actual new news on the actual transfer? 
Then why buy Van Persie and Kagawa? Their presence is obviously going to limit his opportunities (possibly severely). And Fergie didn't (won't) pay all that money to leave them on the bench.
Rooney may be Fergie's target, of course. In any case, if he was perfectly happy with Rooney/Welbeck, he wouldn't be buying RVP/Kagawa.
I'm sorry, I'll get to work on a technical study with statistical analysis on why Danny Welbeck will still be an important player next year, even if we sign Robin Van Persie. Clearly having an opinion based on how you rate a player and looking at past behaviour of the manager is useless without it.
Why do people doubt SAF's ability to keep a squad of talented players well-rotated and happy? He's the best man-manager in the World for Christ sake.
Even more so, should it prove true......in which case, that would be the mancs worst nightmare
Tee hee
LNRDF
What the feck? You are having a mental breakdown Drainy, 'a technical study with statistical analysis' for feck sake. All I asked was how many games you think he will start.Are you for or against this?
Hmm, I'm undecided.
Edit - that was sarcastic by the way! I thought you were joking when you asked me. I'm completely against it, been on a crusade against it for weeks.
Edit - that was sarcastic by the way! I thought you were joking when you asked me. I'm completely against it, been on a crusade against it for weeks.
Itd piss me right off to see Welbeck getting less game time. Its ok saying he'll get games but deep down he'll know and we'll know that he's only playing as a back up now, much like Berbatov this past season. Itd be a bit of a blow for him if he only features against the smaller teams after some of his performances this season. He was our best player in every game against City in my opinion, he needs to be building on that.
Even against Barca the other day, the likes of Puyol couldn't get the ball of him at times.
Even against Barca the other day, the likes of Puyol couldn't get the ball of him at times.
I wonder if Sir Alex thinks that we are over-relying on Rooney, if you take him out of the side we look much weaker on paper.
Kagawa is a brilliant creative player who can play in the middle or wide, with a lot of mobility and can score too, and RVP scores and creates goals bucketloads of goals, has positional discipline and can nick you one even when you haven't played well- where as Welbeck and Rooney (these days) tend to score well worked goals and drop deep to collect the ball.
People have to remember that Welbeck is a very classy and bright player but he's still a very young and inexperienced- realistically, we were over-relying on him last year.
Hernandez, is still very raw as well as young/inexperienced.
Having 4 very good strikers, two of which are flexible and can play in an attacking midfield or wider role isn't a problem, IMO.
Even more so, should it prove true......in which case, that would be the mancs worst nightmare
Tee hee
LNRDF
Not bad on imgur roulette btw
I agree, especially considering he's a local lad from the academy. He's already going to be getting less games with the introduction of Kagawa, let alone bringing Van Persie in as well.
People saying it's okay because he'll play on the left is just wishful thinking, with Young, Nani and Kagawa ahead of him in that position, it's unlikely he'll feature there much at all.
I've said before that if it's a bargain price I'd take him but anything excessive I'd rather invest in other areas.
As others, mostly Theon, have said, we don't just have Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez, we also have Kagawa not too. His natural position is one which entails needing only 1 striker in the team. Additionally his style of play complements each of those 3 strikers very well and in some ways could be the player to bring the best out of them, for example I think Hernandez could thrive off him. If you say Kagawa could play in cm, then what happens to clev/ando/powell who all need games there not to mention scholes and giggs. If we go 433, then you're looking at using only 1 off Nani, Valencia and Young on a regular basis, the former 2 are to good for that.
Last year we didn't struggle for goals. Rooney getting approx 34 in all competitions is obviously considerably more than the other strikers but I don't think it was excessive. You expect the top striker in a top team to be in an around that number especially when they're the penalty taker. Most would say Hernandez had a poor second season and has shown he can do better and Welbeck will have learnt from his experience this year and in the summer. You would expect those two to get a better return.
Berba hardly featured last season, as I said Kagawa is effectively the fourth striker now and he had a good record at Dortmund, he will be good for goals. Not to mention in Nani, Valencia, and Young, if they stay fit thats 3 wingers who can all pitch in well. You can argue we'd have problems if Rooney gets injured but that's the same of any team. Personally whilst I accept it will be tougher if he did get inured I think we have the personel to cover for him, maybe not one player individually but there are a lot of players who can share the burden, particularly if we get better luck with injuries at the back.
Fitting in RVP will be tough too. You can talk about rotation all you want but RVP and Rooney are world class strikers, if they're fit, they play. You'd expect around 50 games each from them, maybe less from RVP given his history. That doesn't leave many games for Welbeck and Hernandez, especially with Kagawa around who is an established quality player. Coming off the back of the season Welbeck had and a good Euro's imo for him this is where he should be looking to push on. Adding Kagawa to the squad is one thing, adding him and RVP will seriously harm his chances not to mention hernandez.
And for me as much as I like RVP as I said we didn't really struggle for goals. We had big defensive issues that cost us. Not to mention I think one of the main areas we should be looking to improve is the link between the attack and midfield. It's something I think we've missed and although Rooney and RVP are capable of it, both imo are showing much more impact higher up the pitch and both seemed to have changed now to becoming more of the lead striker than the deeper striker. I know Rooney started off a little deeper last season but ultimately I think he played pretty high and doesn't look as good in the deeper role as he did.
Like I said at a bargain rate then I'd take him, he's top class. But for a relatively large fee I'd rather we put the money towards someone else. Having said that having lost out on Hazard and Lucas I'd expect Fergie to really want this, both because of his class and as a statement.
As others, mostly Theon, have said, we don't just have Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez, we also have Kagawa not too. His natural position is one which entails needing only 1 striker in the team. Additionally his style of play complements each of those 3 strikers very well and in some ways could be the player to bring the best out of them, for example I think Hernandez could thrive off him. If you say Kagawa could play in cm, then what happens to clev/ando/powell who all need games there not to mention scholes and giggs. If we go 433, then you're looking at using only 1 off Nani, Valencia and Young on a regular basis, the former 2 are to good for that.
Last year we didn't struggle for goals. Rooney getting approx 34 in all competitions is obviously considerably more than the other strikers but I don't think it was excessive. You expect the top striker in a top team to be in an around that number especially when they're the penalty taker. Most would say Hernandez had a poor second season and has shown he can do better and Welbeck will have learnt from his experience this year and in the summer. You would expect those two to get a better return.
Berba hardly featured last season, as I said Kagawa is effectively the fourth striker now and he had a good record at Dortmund, he will be good for goals. Not to mention in Nani, Valencia, and Young, if they stay fit thats 3 wingers who can all pitch in well. You can argue we'd have problems if Rooney gets injured but that's the same of any team. Personally whilst I accept it will be tougher if he did get inured I think we have the personel to cover for him, maybe not one player individually but there are a lot of players who can share the burden, particularly if we get better luck with injuries at the back.
Fitting in RVP will be tough too. You can talk about rotation all you want but RVP and Rooney are world class strikers, if they're fit, they play. You'd expect around 50 games each from them, maybe less from RVP given his history. That doesn't leave many games for Welbeck and Hernandez, especially with Kagawa around who is an established quality player. Coming off the back of the season Welbeck had and a good Euro's imo for him this is where he should be looking to push on. Adding Kagawa to the squad is one thing, adding him and RVP will seriously harm his chances not to mention hernandez.
And for me as much as I like RVP as I said we didn't really struggle for goals. We had big defensive issues that cost us. Not to mention I think one of the main areas we should be looking to improve is the link between the attack and midfield. It's something I think we've missed and although Rooney and RVP are capable of it, both imo are showing much more impact higher up the pitch and both seemed to have changed now to becoming more of the lead striker than the deeper striker. I know Rooney started off a little deeper last season but ultimately I think he played pretty high and doesn't look as good in the deeper role as he did.
Like I said at a bargain rate then I'd take him, he's top class. But for a relatively large fee I'd rather we put the money towards someone else. Having said that having lost out on Hazard and Lucas I'd expect Fergie to really want this, both because of his class and as a statement.
You lot worry too much.
If SAF wants to bring a World Class player into the club, that's fine with me, I couldn't give a monkies feck if that means Rooney or Hernandez or anyone for that matter loses their spot, as long as they are kept out of the team by World Class performances.
If SAF wants to bring a World Class player into the club, that's fine with me, I couldn't give a monkies feck if that means Rooney or Hernandez or anyone for that matter loses their spot, as long as they are kept out of the team by World Class performances.
- Status