Robin van Persie | 2012-14 Performances

[ItsEssexRob]

For me, someones action (or lack of) resulting in us exiting a competition could easily constitute knocking us out, if others aren't comfortable with that terminology fine, but much of this argument is purely linguistic.

Ok but surely you can understand why they are taking offence to saying that an expensive world class summer signing who was brilliant for 60% of the league season knocked you out of 2 cups?

 

[Siorac]

For me, someones action (or lack of) resulting in us exiting a competition could easily constitute knocking us out, if others aren't comfortable with that terminology fine, but much of this argument is purely linguistic.

By your logic, the men handling Japanese anti-aircraft weapons dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. After all, they could have prevented the plane reaching its destination by shooting it down. The Japanese bombed themselves, feck them!

 

[NinjaFletch]

Ok but surely you can understand why they are taking offence to saying that an expensive world class summer signing who was brilliant for 60% of the league season knocked you out of 2 cups?

I never claimed otherwise.

But I think his price tag and how good he is should only add to the sense of disappointment that he didn't provide the difference in quality when we needed it towards the business end in the cups that is, after all, surely why we bought him.

 

[Sylar]

I blame our defence. He was happy scoring when we were conceding but now? Look at him...
Arsenal end of season sydrome still in effect.

 

[AttackingFlair]

He should've scored but I would be less critical considering he came off the bench.

 

[RK]

So technique is irrelevant in goal scoring?

No. Good technique increases the chance of scoring.

Or should I be putting money on Gabby Abonglahor to go on a good run of scoring form, because he's been a bit shit for ever and probably deserves this luck that apparently every top player ever has had?

That's called gamblers fallacy and has no relevance to my point.

The fact is no matter how good the striker, there is always a chance that they will miss a shot. Sometimes these misses come together (RVP now / not rolling a 6 for a long time) sometimes they rarely occur (RVP early season / rolling a 6 several times in a row). You've also got to factor in the significance of the misses - if these random events occur 4-0 up against Wigan it won't be remembered as vividly as a crucial chance in Madrid.

I'm not saying randomness fully explains RVP's apparent form (even I don't think he looks as sharp as previous months). I'm saying it's a massively overlooked factor in all aspects of this sport. Football is for the masses which is why we all love it, but generally people are only interested in the easy analysis and popular opinion. Even club owners fall for non-existent patterns, as evident in the increasingly predictable sacking of managers.

Anyway, Suarez used to have the worst conversion rate in the league but you could tell he was a quality striker and now the cnut's top scorer. In my opinion one shouldn't worry if a striker is missing chances, only if he's not creating chances.

 

[NinjaFletch]

No. Good technique increases the chance of scoring.


That's called gamblers fallacy and has no relevance to my point.

The fact is no matter how good the striker, there is always a chance that they will miss a shot. Sometimes these misses come together (RVP now / not rolling a 6 for a long time) sometimes they rarely occur (RVP early season / rolling a 6 several times in a row). You've also got to factor in the significance of the misses - if these random events occur 4-0 up against Wigan it won't be remembered as vividly as a crucial chance in Madrid.

I'm not saying randomness fully explains RVP's apparent form (even I don't think he looks as sharp as previous months). I'm saying it's a massively overlooked factor in all aspects of this sport. Football is for the masses which is why we all love it, but generally people are only interested in the easy analysis and popular opinion. Even club owners fall for non-existent patterns, as evident in the increasingly predictable sacking of managers.

Anyway, Suarez used to have the worst conversion rate in the league but you could tell he was a quality striker and now the cnut's top scorer. In my opinion one shouldn't worry if a striker is missing chances, only if he's not creating chances.

I think in trying to be clever and take an unusual position you're massively over simplifying things. Of course some players miss when they should score, of course some score when they should miss, I don't think that's ever been disputed, but that doesn't mean that the main reason very good players score a lot of goals very regularly is because they're very good, not because they're very lucky.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

He was making points earlier in the season that productivity and numbers mean a lot to him. His figures are good but not as impressive as they were and now he's got to look at himself to bump them up.

Suarez seems like he'll definitely get the golden boot, and it wouldn't surprise me if that translates to FWA and PFA awards too. With some of the chances RVP has missed, albeit by taking less shots on average than Suarez, have contributed to this dry run.

Doesn't seem to be hitting the ball like only he can. Some of the goals he scores are pure instinct and it's not been coming off. He'll come out of this bad run, but this was his time to have a clean run to some success with his team and maintain the plaudits he earned as an Arsenal player.

 

[NM]

We need to beat the Arsenal out of him. The season does not end after the new year, and he needs to learn to play in the big cup games!

 

[Adebesi]

All strikers have dry spells. Unlucky timing for the cups, but he's been instrumental in our league campaign and he'll be even better next season.

 

[gbgary]

yup...he'll be fine.

 

[Dargonk]

He isn't even playing that badly right now. At the beginning of the season he missed easy chances as well, but the team helped create far more chances for him. Today yes, he missed a decent chance to score, but it was far from a sitter. The ball came across quickly and in the air.

I'd be more worried about how our midfield totally vanished once we started pushing for goals. It was a case of playing in two lines forward and attack, with a massive gap that chelsea's midfield could sit in. Hardly the greatest situation for moving the ball up the field and creating clear chances for our strikers.

 

[Feed Me]

It's reached the point where he's having quite a disappointing season. Nothing reactionary in that, just looking at the cold hard facts. No goals since the back end of of February, and he's missed presentable chances in our biggest cup ties. Essentially, he's a £24m striker and supposedly the main man in our side. In that context, his season has turned into a bit of a disappointment.

I'm not denigrating his impact pre-February, and his importance in helping us get 15 points ahead, but I think a lot of people have overstated his importance. This notion that RvP won us the title as soon as he arrived doesn't really hold true tbh.

I can only imagine the reaction towards Rooney if he had gone this many matches without a goal and had missed good chances against RM and Chelsea.

On the plus side, RvP has clearly chipped in with important goals and assists before February and I think his downturn in form could well be linked to having no pre season.

I hope he can get back on the goal trail in the last eight league games, because his season, personally, is in real danger of fizzling out,

 

[Feed Me]

Ok but surely you can understand why they are taking offence to saying that an expensive world class summer signing who was brilliant for 60% of the league season knocked you out of 2 cups?

I don't think you've done yourself any favours with the construction of the above sentence.

Is it good enough than "an expensive world class" forward has only been "brilliant for 60%" of the season? Also, you can get into semantical arguments, but he missed a sitter against Madrid and against you boys. Leading forwards at United can't be exempt from criticism if they stop scoring come the business end.

 

[kps88]

He has won us the title though. If he decided to join City instead there's no way we would be 15 points ahead. You have to also take into account Rooney's terrible form/injuries at the start of the season. We turned to shit the moment RVP lost form.

I think we'll see him at his best next season with a proper preseason behind him.

 

[Feed Me]

We need to beat the Arsenal out of him. The season does not end after the new year, and he needs to learn to play in the big cup games!

I don't understand this point people have been making. RvP scored 37 last season for Arsenal, 14 more than he currently has. We only have 8 games left.

 

[Feed Me]

He has won us the title though. If he decided to join City instead there's no way we would be 15 points ahead. You have to also take into account Rooney's terrible form/injuries at the start of the season. We turned to shit the moment RVP lost form.

I think we'll see him at his best next season with a proper preseason behind him.

He's scored 19 and got 12 assists. Really decent numbers, but not unassailable.

I agree on the pre season point, and think that this is an overlooked factor in his season going off the boil.

 

[kps88]

He's scored 19 and got 12 assists. Really decent numbers, but not unassailable.

Yeah those numbers aren't out of this world, but I think his impact up until December/Jan was huge.

There was a time when he comfortably looked a level above everyone else in our team; I can't remember a new signing ever coming in and doing that straight away. Those goals are even more of an achievement when you consider we were playing like maniacs at the time and had no wingers. I really think we would have struggled to get points during those first few months if not for him, since the rest of our team was in a mess.

 

[Feed Me]

Yeah those numbers aren't out of this world, but I think his impact up until December/Jan was huge.

There was a time when he comfortably looked a level above everyone else in our team; I can't remember a new signing ever coming in and doing that straight away. Those goals are even more of an achievement when you consider we were playing like maniacs at the time and had no wingers. I really think we would have struggled to get points during those first few months if not for him, since the rest of our team was in a mess.

All fair points. Like I said in my original post, I'm not criticising his impact pre-February when he was clearly vital to us. That said, I can't help but be disappointed by his lack of impact since then.

 

[wr8_utd]

RvP was brilliant for us in the initial months and helped us get points when we were rubbish but we quite easily might have done as well with Rooney up top with Kagawa playing behind. RvP played a major role but he hasn't won us the title like many people like to say.

 

[Feed Me]

RvP was brilliant for us in the initial months and helped us get points when we were rubbish but we quite easily might have done as well with Rooney up top with Kagawa playing behind. RvP played a major role but he hasn't won us the title like many people like to say.

That's my view. The idea that RvP won us the title is premised on the notion that no one else would've stepped up in his absence. Perhaps the gap would've been smaller between us and City, but I think we'd have been comfortably clear.

 

[Brwned]

What van Persie did in the first few months is something no player has done since Ronaldo was here, so I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to think no-one else would've stepped up to the same degree. A "disappointing" season, jesus fecking christ.

 

[Massive Spanner]

There's no way we'd be so far ahead at this stage if it wasn't for him. Let's not forget that if we hadn't got him, City would have. He was definitely the main aspect to us winning the league this year. He saved our arses so many times earlier in the season when the majority of our team were playing rubbish.

 

[Feed Me]

What van Persie did in the first few months is something no player has done since Ronaldo was here, so I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to think no-one else would've stepped up to the same degree. A "disappointing" season, jesus fecking christ.

I think Rooney has had spells of prolific goalscoring (which has been key to gathering points) since Ronaldo left.

Van Persie has not had a disappointing season overall; he's clearly been good. But I'd say it's indisputable that he's been disappointing over the past month or two. His last goal was 10 February, and while he's pitched in with a few assists since then, my overriding feeling is that he's gone off the boil at the business end of the season, and he's missed presentable chances in a couple of our biggest games.

 

[Brwned]

"It's reached the point where he's having quite a disappointing season."

I think there are people going overboard here just to try and balance out the criticism for Rooney, and that's unbelievably petty.

 

[Feed Me]

There's no way we'd be so far ahead at this stage if it wasn't for him. Let's not forget that if we hadn't got him, City would have. He was definitely the main aspect to us winning the league this year. He saved our arses so many times earlier in the season when the majority of our team were playing rubbish.

He's clearly been a factor, but there's been other factors too. Our defensive performances over the last ten games or so have been key to us continuing to pile up the points while City have dropped further behind.

Not you, but I don't see why some posters bristle with indignation at the merest suggestion that he's having a disappointing spell. He's gone ten games without a goal during a period where we've stopped convincing in the league, gone out of Europe and gone out of the FA Cup. It's a reasonable criticism.

 

[Feed Me]

"It's reached the point where he's having quite a disappointing season."

I think there are people going overboard here just to try and balance out the criticism for Rooney, and that's unbelievably petty.

I don't think you should read too much into my wording in my original post. I don't come on the Caf and draft my posts and re-read before posting them - they're very much off the cuff. I certainly didn't mean to come across as saying he's had a disappointing season overall, though I do see why you'd reach that conclusion on reflection. The point I was reaching for is that he's reached the point where his form is disappointing, and February to April is not a great time to lose form. I'm not going to budge on these points and I don't think they're unfair.

I don't buy into the idea that his general play has been up to scratch during this period either. For me, he's started to get uptight and has been taking an extra touch during this fallow period. Like many strikers, he's at his best when he's playing instinctively and that hasn't been the case of late. It's natural that his confidence has dipped, mind.

Also didn't mean to intentionally detract from RvP's efforts by bigging up Rooney in comparison. I've always been a big advocate of saying there's very little between them and that it's only ever form that really separates them. But I do think it's interesting to see the relative patience RvP is being afforded compared to Wayne. Not saying RvP should be getting stick; if anything, I'd like to see that patience and understanding applied to Rooney if he ever has a below-par spell.

 

[Zen86]

He's clearly been a factor, but there's been other factors too. Our defensive performances over the last ten games or so have been key to us continuing to pile up the points while City have dropped further behind.

Not you, but I don't see why some posters bristle with indignation at the merest suggestion that he's having a disappointing spell. He's gone ten games without a goal during a period where we've stopped convincing in the league, gone out of Europe and gone out of the FA Cup. It's a reasonable criticism.

I don't think anyone is denying that. It's the suggesting that he's had a disappointing season which most will take issue with as he's had anything but.

If you ask me he still hasn't settled into the team properly. He doesn't really take up the right positions a lot of the time and seems to make things difficult for himself. It's just that his unbelievable form and finishing in the first half of the season covered it up.

 

[Feed Me]

I don't think anyone is denying that. It's the suggesting that he's had a disappointing season which most will take issue with as he's had anything but.

If you ask me he still hasn't settled into the team properly. He doesn't really take up the right positions a lot of the time and seems to make things difficult for himself. It's just that his unbelievable form and finishing in the first half of the season covered it up.

As stated earlier in the thread, I believe that missing pre-season is part of the reason he's starting to struggle now. Him having a tournament-less summer and then a full pre-season will be great for him next season.

 

[Massive Spanner]

He's clearly been a factor, but there's been other factors too. Our defensive performances over the last ten games or so have been key to us continuing to pile up the points while City have dropped further behind.

Not you, but I don't see why some posters bristle with indignation at the merest suggestion that he's having a disappointing spell. He's gone ten games without a goal during a period where we've stopped convincing in the league, gone out of Europe and gone out of the FA Cup. It's a reasonable criticism.

Oh he's definitely having a bad spell, I've been saying that for a while, but his overall contribution to the season was far from disappointing. He's still been our best player after Carrick, overall.

As someone said, this isn't a new thing for him, I think an Arsenal poster pointed out that his goal ratio usually went down dramatically for them too later in the season.

 

[Feed Me]

Oh he's definitely having a bad spell, I've been saying that for a while, but his overall contribution to the season was far from disappointing. He's still been our best player after Carrick, overall.

As someone said, this isn't a new thing for him, I think an Arsenal poster pointed out that his goal ratio usually went down dramatically for them too later in the season.

I recall he had a mini-dip last year, but if my memory serves me well, he came good again. Ended up with 37 last season, so hopefully he can pick it up for us in the run-in.

 

[Buchan]

A couple of goals next Monday night to defeat City and deliver us our 20th title, and this thread will be full of posters in full-on wank-mode again. He's going through a difficult patch at the moment, but he's the main reason we're sitting on a 15 point lead at this stage of the season.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

I don't think you've done yourself any favours with the construction of the above sentence.

Is it good enough than "an expensive world class" forward has only been "brilliant for 60%" of the season? Also, you can get into semantical arguments, but he missed a sitter against Madrid and against you boys. Leading forwards at United can't be exempt from criticism if they stop scoring come the business end.

I definiteley don't think he should be exempt from criticism though, I think its quite ridiculous to say hes not having a poor spell, but I thought it was even more ridiculous to claim he knocked United out of two cups.

As someone already pointed out in a similar analogy it's like saying a doctor who fails to save a stab victim from dying, was responsible for killing him.

 

[antohan]

I don't think you should read too much into my wording in my original post. I don't come on the Caf and draft my posts and re-read before posting them - they're very much off the cuff. I certainly didn't mean to come across as saying he's had a disappointing season overall, though I do see why you'd reach that conclusion on reflection. The point I was reaching for is that he's reached the point where his form is disappointing, and February to April is not a great time to lose form. I'm not going to budge on these points and I don't think they're unfair.

I think the way you ended it was fair. He is in danger of his initially barnstorming season fizzling out. I'm not fussed about the misses or players having dry patches, but would like to see him get back into his groove to end the season well and not looking out of sorts.

In any case, if this is a regular problem with him and not "Arsenal", as pointed out by others, we can wrap our heads around it now with a significant lead built up in the league and work on that not happening next season, when potentially competing more tightly on several fronts.

 

[Feed Me]

I definiteley don't think he should be exempt from criticism though, I think its quite ridiculous to say hes not having a poor spell, but I thought it was even more ridiculous to claim he knocked United out of two cups.

As someone already pointed out in a similar analogy it's like saying a doctor who fails to save a stab victim from dying, was responsible for killing him.

Yeah, I take your overall point. There's too many factors in a game to lay the blame squarely at the door of a forward who misses a chance.

 

[Fergus' son]

"It's reached the point where he's having quite a disappointing season."

I think there are people going overboard here just to try and balance out the criticism for Rooney, and that's unbelievably petty.

Weren't you having a go at me for expressing an opinion of this ilk?

 

[Brwned]

It's mystifying that people can't accept it.

Accept that RVPs in poor form.

No, I'm not telling anyone to accept that their opinion is wrong and mine is right. I'm saying their opinion on RvP is influenced by ulterior motives (i.e. defending/praising/supporting Rooney). I don't care that you think I was defending van Persie for the wrong reasons, but you not letting it go and then trying to force that opinion down people's throats is the kind of aggressive posting that drives people away from the forums.

 

[Fergus' son]

No, I'm not telling anyone to accept that their opinion is wrong and mine is right. I'm saying their opinion on RvP is influenced by ulterior motives (i.e. defending/praising/supporting Rooney). I don't care that you think I was defending van Persie for the wrong reasons, but you not letting it go and then trying to force that opinion down people's throats is the kind of aggressive posting that drives people away from the forums.

I was intimating that people's opinions on RVP are influenced by ulterior motives, just as you have done.

When I said 'accept it', I wasn't forcing people to agree, I was saying its ok to admit that one of our best players is in poor form, and that we don't have to find excuses for him, 'just accept it', because I do think people can see he isn't playing well but don't want to say it. Same way you think he is playing well but people don't want to say it (your assertion seems far less of a likely scenario).

It helps to grasp the context of a conversation before you make assumptions about the posters motives. Also, nothing was 'agressive' about my posts, get a grip.

 

[wr8_utd]

A couple of goals next Monday night to defeat City and deliver us our 20th title, and this thread will be full of posters in full-on wank-mode again. He's going through a difficult patch at the moment, but he's the main reason we're sitting on a 15 point lead at this stage of the season.

He's one of many reasons we're sitting on a huge lead.

 

[Brwned]

I was intimating that people's opinions on RVP are influenced by ulterior motives, just as you have done.

When I said 'accept it', I wasn't forcing people to agree, I was saying its ok to admit that one of our best players is in poor form, and that we don't have to find excuses for him, 'just accept it', because I do think people can see he isn't playing well but don't want to say it. Same way you think he is playing well but people don't want to say it (your assertion seems far less of a likely scenario).

It helps to grasp the context of a conversation before you make assumptions about the posters motives. Also, nothing was 'agressive' about my posts, get a grip.

I don't think anyone thinks he's playing well so give it a rest about grasping the context of a conversation. PM me if you want to drag this out any longer.