Perhaps it is for you...for me, it is goals that is absolutely the most entertaining thing about football.
Robin van Persie | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter KM
- Start date
- Status
Let's not overlook what Athletic Bilbao did to us last season. They were by no means one of the top two teams in La Liga last season they completely destroyed us, a defending English prem champion.
Maybe you can argue that the bottom three sides in England are better than the bottom three sides in Spain, but the assertion that overall the English prem is better than La Liga is supoorted only by wishful thinking, not fact.
Wasn't it just yesterday caftards were arguing that the English prem has suffered a decline in quality over the last few seasons?
Imo what sets Ronaldo apart from Van Persie is that he essentially plays two positions at once. He's nominally a winger, using pace and trickery to get at the fullback to either cross or cut in. He is also a striker, popping up in the middle of the pitch and scoring an astonishing amount of goals inside the box as a poacher.
Robin Van Persie can be easily categorized as a brilliant Centre forward. What differentiates Ronaldo (and Messi) is that they defy such categorization.
Robin Van Persie can be easily categorized as a brilliant Centre forward. What differentiates Ronaldo (and Messi) is that they defy such categorization.
He can'r run past them like CR, that is obvious. But he beats them in ways that Ronaldo doesn't. Look how he scored his goal last week. Selling the dummy, and in one movement moving the ball onto his right and calmly guiding it into the corner.
Again yesterday, uses the timing of his run and his first touch to beat the man, and an unerring finish. RVP is an extremely clever player, he doesn't need pace to create space. He uses his body and his touch and then his intelligence to create the space for himself. It deosn't matter about creating space on the wings, as long as you do it when you need to. RVP is as good as anyone at not only finding space, but creating it for himself or for others.
I have watched CR be completely nullified on more than one occasion against A.Cole, when his pace was not an advantage to him. does he have the same level of guile that RVP shows in creating the space? I would say no, because when pace does the trick in 90% of situations, why bother considering how you would play without it? He often looked short of ideas when he played against Cole in my view.
People give too much credit to pace nowadays, skill and knowing how to use it to gain maximum benefit is far more important. An example would be Figo. No pace and some accused him of having only one trick, yet he managed to remain a WC goalscoring wideman for many years, because of how he made what he had work best for him. His brain and his ability.
Ronaldo's dribbling has deteriorated remarkably to be fair since his first top class season with us. Still better/more effective, but if he got that part of his game back the difference between him and Messi would be marginal.
That can just as easily be countered by the fact van Persie can play as a number 10 as he has the ability to play the killer ball, something which Ronaldo does not.
Speaking of Ronaldo, he's just scored.
Bullshit. Ronaldo can play anywhere across the frontline, but he lacks the work rate and passing ability to play anywhere else.
Just a rich man's Huntelaar, Ronaldo is.
Wrong thread?
But on topic.
There is simply no comparison on who is more adept at beating players. I'm not saying RVP can't but whatever he is now, Ronaldo built his career on it.
Ronaldo obviously has more pace and is deadly when running into space, but can Ronaldo actually beat a man in a tight space on a regular basis?
Since he became a footballing machine from about mid 2007 onwards that really isn't part of his game any more, and even before that he would simply just knock it past players and run round them. He certainly never had that intricate touch in tight spaces to fool defenders which players like Messi and Iniesta have.
Have you ever seen Ronaldo bring a ball down like Van Persie did for his goal against West Ham? I've never.
Ronaldo is the better player, but it's not as big a gap as some people think.
He has shown that kind of control and touch on many occasions. Even in the Euros he brought down a very difficult pass, turned around and was very unlucky to hit the post
The comparison has become really biased here, we're using his goal scoring from his United days, but his dribbling from the current Madrid times. In other words periods when his standout attributes were/are at their weakest. Why not the other way around?
Because we're assessing them as they are now?
Ronaldo's machine-like consistency and goalscoring cannot be ingnored, hence why I consider him the better player. But you can't say that his dribbling is that much better than RVP's because they both use their attributes to beat defenders in different ways.
You have got to be kidding me?
I question my sanity reading opinions like that at times.
I absolutely can and I reckon if RVP was still at Arsenal you'd be saying the same thing.
I probably would, but then I defended Ronaldo in comparisons with Messi when he was still with us, knowing full well that his dribbling was severely overrated and that what really separated him from other players was his determination and consistency. There are more talented players who don't amount to much because they don't have self belief that Ronaldo does. It's a great quality.
This thread is now getting uber fecking gay. You wanna discuss RVP and ronaldo, there should be a thread on it in the main football forum. This thread should be used to discuss just RVP. Turning into messi v. ronaldo from way back.
My last suggestion on this issue. For me what seperates the very best players is what they have upstairs. A very clever player can use that intelligence to elevate himself above the level his ability should usually allow.
When i look at Iniesta, Messi, Maradona, Cryuff etc, They have a picture in their head and a natural instinct for the game which elevates them above their peers. This is the key attribute that defines why Zidane is better than Gerrard or Lampard, despite never being anywhere near as prolific. Zidane used his head, strength and technique to create space, with no need for any pace. He could do that against anyone, any team, at any time which is what sets him apart, just like it sets Iniesta apart from today's attacking playmaker types.
I see CR as a player whose physical attributes outweigh his intelligence and natural instincts. This doesn't mean i am labelling him thick, or some sort of footballing retard. He is a player who uses his physical prowess and ball striking ability brilliantly, but he lacks the guile or natural instinctiveness of someone like Messi or RVP, in situations where his physical attributes do not provide him an advantage.
For me this is what leaves him a level behind the very best players despite his incredible goal scoring record. If that alone was a true measure of greatness, then surely Lampard would be more highly regarded than either Scholes, Iniesta or Zidane, which is clearly not the case, nor should it be!
So we are looking for that something extra which defines greatness, i say it is intelligence combined with instinctive ability. I think i could use the same logic with CR that i use with Lamps. Lamps regularly strikes a wonderful ball and scores shitloads of goals, but he lacks that special something that prevents him being considered amongst the greats. For me the same applies with CR. The reason he is currently behind Messi, is the same reason i consider him behind the other true greats, he just lacks that extra special ingredient in my view.
When i look at Iniesta, Messi, Maradona, Cryuff etc, They have a picture in their head and a natural instinct for the game which elevates them above their peers. This is the key attribute that defines why Zidane is better than Gerrard or Lampard, despite never being anywhere near as prolific. Zidane used his head, strength and technique to create space, with no need for any pace. He could do that against anyone, any team, at any time which is what sets him apart, just like it sets Iniesta apart from today's attacking playmaker types.
I see CR as a player whose physical attributes outweigh his intelligence and natural instincts. This doesn't mean i am labelling him thick, or some sort of footballing retard. He is a player who uses his physical prowess and ball striking ability brilliantly, but he lacks the guile or natural instinctiveness of someone like Messi or RVP, in situations where his physical attributes do not provide him an advantage.
For me this is what leaves him a level behind the very best players despite his incredible goal scoring record. If that alone was a true measure of greatness, then surely Lampard would be more highly regarded than either Scholes, Iniesta or Zidane, which is clearly not the case, nor should it be!
So we are looking for that something extra which defines greatness, i say it is intelligence combined with instinctive ability. I think i could use the same logic with CR that i use with Lamps. Lamps regularly strikes a wonderful ball and scores shitloads of goals, but he lacks that special something that prevents him being considered amongst the greats. For me the same applies with CR. The reason he is currently behind Messi, is the same reason i consider him behind the other true greats, he just lacks that extra special ingredient in my view.
I rate Lampard more than Iniesta. Not the current Lampard, the 2005 Lampard.
You don't score 60 goals in a season without having incredible intelligence and natural instinct.
I can't believe I actually have to say that.
I can't believe I actually have to say that.
Nah, you just need to pump weights all day, and then while playing, shoot enough that 1 fortunate shot out of the 47 shots you shoot enter the net. Rinse and repeat over a season.
Then really something is wrong with you.Even the 05 Lampard taken into account
The difference was attitude. United didn't care clearly, Bilbao prepared for weeks for those games. They rested players before and after those ties. Another issue was our inability to deal with pressing.
I don't think you're describing footballing intelligence there, more creativity and vision with the ball at feet. Ronaldo, Lampard and even Hernandez are very intelligent on the pitch, but the majority of this is done off the ball with their ability to find space which allows them to be such prolific goalscorers.
Other than that I pretty much agree with your post, whilst Ronaldos figures are obviously amazing he hasn't got that bit of grace on the ball which really captures my imagination in the same way the other players you've listed do. That's just a preference more than anything, though I think.
Ronaldo had turned himself into arguably the worlds best poacher over the last couple of seasons. Isn't the defining attribute of such a player instinct? Or knowing where to be, etc.
Hey that's not fair, someone removed my *brace yourselves, winter is coming* picture
Lampard 05 was quality to be fair he was named in the world team of the year he was machine like for scoring. But Iniesta oozes pure quality and is easier on the eye with his silky play. Majority people would opt for Iniesta being the better player yet Lampard has been so effective and consistent over the years.
I've always rated Lampard but a comparison between both at their peak is pointless to me.Iniesta has been the better player and has proved in various competitions (league, CL, Euro championship, world cup).
Iniesta only shades Lampard in international competition. I don't see much that separates them in club competition.
- Status