Sounds fair after all. We re not direct title rivals and it makes good sense to take our best players before we do get a chance to do anything. The benign, moral transfer policy of Man Utd.
We ll keep sandro ready for you as well.
Robert Lewandowski
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
- Status
Sounds fair after all. We re not direct title rivals and it makes good sense to take our best players before we do get a chance to do anything. The benign, moral transfer policy of Man Utd.
We ll keep sandro ready for you as well.
I think people shouldn't believe that this season's league table shows the actual difference in quality between Bayern and the rest of the league. This season was fueled by last year's disaster and I haven't seen a team play with so much determination in my life. There's no way we get close to the points total again the next years, whoever we buy and whoever will be manager.
It's important that Dortmund establish themselves as a top team in europe, but that's got nothing to do with Bayern. It's no difference for their development if they sell Sahin to Madrid, Kagawa to United or Götze to Bayern. They need to become big enough and earn enough money to keep them. I think the surroundings in germany show that right now there's enough money for at least a second european top club, maybe even a third (Hamburg or Schalke should be that one). If FFP works, we should be fine. If not and more teams like Monaco, PSG, City pop up, the german league will suffer, because we don't allow these investors. I don't think Bayern's shopping tendencies are that relevant, especially because the team is build around a lot of home grown players who won't go anywhere.
Of course it would be better for them and it would be better for us if he or Rooney left for somewhere else than a club in the BL/PL. Strenghtening your title rival is the last thing you want. Götze wouldnt have moved. Not yet anyway. Bayern told him now or never. That was why he made his decision. Normally he would have stayed at Dortmund. Would Gomez have left? Would Ballack have left in that season? Who knows. Fact is you bought them.
And more often than not teams in the Bl are forced to sell to you because of financial reasons.
I never said you were at fault for any of those things you mentioned above.
What I blame you for is that you use your financial power to deliberately weaken your opponents. And you do that. You can't deny it. You do it less than in the past but this whole Lewandowski saga stinks.
When you say you try to build a team that will be able to dominate for years in the BL and in Europe tell me this: Do you need Lewandowski for it?
You will spend big money for a player that might improve you slightly but I'm sure the fact he plays for Dortmund atm has a huge role to play in the decision to go for him. And by doing that and doing it for years the BL won't get any more attractive. Of course it's not only your fault. Players beeing impatient or trying to get more money somewhere else plays a big role as well but by buying players from your direct title rivals it takes a lot away from the attractivness of the BL.
How exactly is you league in transition though? And how would anyone know whether Dortmund have a bright future ahead of them? I see the same pattern in the BL that I have known since I was a little boy, just that the titel rivals you buy the players from are even stronger than normally. I really hope Dortmund can continue to be successfull but losing two very important players can be a huge blow.
Dortmund haven't done it for years though, that's the difference. They bought Reus, fair enough. He was a very good player when they bought him and they bought him from a team that's one of the contenders for their CL spots. So you are right.
Doesnt make the actions Bayern take any better though. For your point that Bayern try to create a dominant team also domestically as well as on the European stage. Well you are right, Bayern obviously try to do that now. 2 questions though. When Bayern were far away to get that (especially far away from beeing dominant on the European stage) they also bought from title rivals didnt they. What was their aim back then? When you bought Ze Roberto and Ballack from Leverkusen, who were second behind Dortmund that year and got the the European final. Wasnt the aim also to weaken them deliberately? I'm sure it was.
Also why Lewandowski? In a position you are very well stocked. He would improve you, but certainyl not enough to justify the price you will pay for him.
I don't dislike Bayern half as much as I've already done in the past. You have done a wonderful job with your youth. Also your players are now more liekable than they have been in the past. The only thing that kept me away from having a soft spot for you was your board and the Mia san Mia mentality which is a bit gay tbh.
But this whole Lewandowski saga brings back memories to how it was back in 2001 and onwards.
People have already given examples in the thread. People just prefer to put it off as one offs or not real rivals.
And as others have said, what is the difference between buying off a direct rival and buying off a club which will stop them growing into potential rivals?
When did it last happen?
Good post. I don't blame Bayern for buying the other top players, because obviously they always want to strengthen themselves. I just fear for the rest of the competition when they lose their best players and can't attract the other top players to replace them with because they won't have great chances at a trophy and they can't offer a lot of money like the rich teams can.
Meaning that the La Liga was in a seemingly healthy state when Valencia made the final and the likes of Depor would get as far as semis of the CL. But money distribution has changed things for the worse... causing a lack of competitiveness. My concern is the same could happen in Germany despite the German league looking as if it's in a relatively healthy...because Bayern are able to buy their direct rival's best players. Perhaps they could do with a couple of sugar daddies making their way to the Bundesliga.
You're putting words in my mouth, I'm not criticising Bayern. I'm criticisng the situation that German football finds itself in, not sure who is at fault or if anyone really can be directly blamed.
Yes I would love us to sign Wilshere, Bale and Aguero, wouldn't want Gerrard here though as good as he's been and as funny as it would be to see how Liverpool's fans react, but the point is we can't and won't.
If we tried to sign those players then we'd no doubt have Chelsea and City also competing for them, I don't really care where their money comes from either because they make the league a lot more competitive than it would otherwise be. I don't really feel sorry for the selling clubs either because when they sell the likes of Lescott, Milner and Carroll for £22+ it's really hard to have any sympathy for them when they fleece the buying club for every last penny and then are made out to be some kind of victim by some fans. If they invest that money properly they can fund the purchase of players of at least equal ability if their scouts do a good enough job.
Well, I can't really disagree with the board problem. Hoeness really isn't a very likeable person and after his tax drama he looks even more like an arse. I hope he stays quiet now, works in the back ground and let Sammer, Guardiola do the talking. Rummenigge isn't as bad as Hoeness, we might polish our image up despite him, there was no way to do it with Hoeness in charge.
And why is "Mia san Mia" gay? I think it's a bit stupid, but really, Dortmund's "True love" is gay. I think it's pretty embarrassing to make up such a stupid phrase just because your rival had one. It's probably embarrassing to have one at all and shout it out all the time like we do it, but creating one for marketing reasons is a different level of embarrassing. I think most fans don't really know what it means, anyway. So yeah, it's a bit gay, I agree. I disagree with almost anything you wrote abough though, but I leave it at that.
Exactly. As long as their's enough competition it's not much of an issue.
When there's a single club doing it though and doing it for years it becomes a concern for the league. Well it not only becomes a concern, it is a concern and that's what many try to say and it's way many can't get themselves to like Bayern.
The only real examples of us doing what Bayern regularly do are Cole and Van Persie, and they are exceptions. When we've signed players from other English clubs it's tended to be mid-table and lower, not because we're especially moral, but because we've never had that much of a financial advantage.
Spurs are as strong as they are because they've been able to spend an absolute fortune on transfers over the last few years, and they've been able to do so because they've sold players. Hell, over the last five seasons you've outspent us by 20 million quid. You were absolutely nowhere near challenging us when we signed Berbatov from you, having finished the previous season forty points behind us in mid-table. If we did sign Bale now you might have a point, but that's not going to happen, because we can't afford him.
Ah I misunderstood. It's a fair concern, and sugar daddies would actually help the situation out at the top, but I don't think its needed, at least not for Dortmund anyway. I don't see Bayern running away with it for years untested or Dortmund being unable to rebuild and replace that lost quality. Could mirror La Liga somewhat though.
True love is ultra gay as well I agree
And I have no problem with agreeing to disagree. You are someone I actually like to discuss. You don't fall into a pattern of throwing insults or offensive words at someone diasgreeing with you.
And as I said, Bayern for me gained a lot of symphaty over the last 2 or so years. The way they build their youth now is great. But their past and what's happening now atm is just sth that I don't think is healthy for the league and for someone who doesnt really support the club makes it easy to dislike Bayern.
If we somehow had the same opportunity to do what Bayern are doing right now with Dortmund, we would do that year on year without question.
Not possible but I doubt that's the solution anyway. Dortmund will be close to a top 5 club in europe financially, they will fight back. If Bayern had just built a strong team, it wouldn't look as boring as it does right now. But we somehow managed to build a team that dominated europe as well - who would have expected that 5 years ago - so it looks worse than it actually is.
A sugar daddy fueled club who buys a whole squad and not only a few players of their rivals isn't really more exciting than young teams keeping their players maybe one or two years longer than in England right now and are able to compete with Bayern for a few years. That's imo the huge problem in England. A team like Tottenham probably couldn't have competed with United for a decade, but they could have kept their players one or two years longer without City and Chelsea, and maybe would have had that one season in which they actual win the title and a few more in which they challenge, just like Bremen, Stuttgart and Dortmund in germany. With several sugar daddy clubs that's never going to happen because way more players leave the clubs than Bayern or United could ever buy.
Then you should call us cnuts when no one could deal with our financial muscle. We gained such an influx by fair means but so have Bayern
I agree with your point in general but the bit in bold is clearly not true, the point is Gotze is strengthening a direct rival and weakening the team he's leaving. You couldn't class us and Madrid as rivals for Dortmund so it's really not the same.
If Bayern hadn't come in for him now there's no guarantee he would've left this summer and Dortmund could've held on to their star player for another year and would have a better chance of competing with Bayern next season. If they do lose Lewandowski as well and his replacement struggles for goals can you even really guarantee they will reach the Champions League on a consistent basis for the foreseeable future? I'm not so sure.
Don't want to go through it all again. Been discussing my point on the previous pages.
For the record: We are no saints neither, but that's not the point I was making.
When was this ever the case? There was maybe two years (01-03) where we were the biggest spenders in England. There was never a point that we were comparable to Bayern Munich, there likely would have been if not for Abramovich, but it never happened. There's a massive and deeply irritating myth around that during the 90s we were like the modern Bayern Munich, but it's complete bollocks.
Complete and utter nonsense. The summer we were forced to sell Carrick to you, we finished 18 points behind you. A Carrick, Keane and Berbatov loss later, this season, we finished 17 points behind you.
I'm sure you can agree this shows incredible progress. Thank god the richer clubs pick off our players. I don't know why the top clubs don't sell their clubs more often, considering how useful it apparently is.
Having players is much better than having money. That money can be spent on players that don't adapt. It can be spent on players that spend a long time acclimatising. You buy Carrick off us, the gap immediately becomes 29 points. Who knows what could have happened had we kept Carrick and added Berbatov to the team?
And in the last 5 seasons, we've spent 7.7 million net, including the January we effectively told Redknapp he could spend whatever he wanted to to save us from relegation. To compare our spending to yours is ridiculous, especially when your wage bill is almost the same size as our whole turnover.
In fact, just had a look and your net spend was 57 million over the same period. Comparable for sure.
But the structure in spain is quite different
Exactly, Andy Cole was the biggest(only?) transfer from a direct title rival I remember in the 90s and that created quite a storm I seem to remember.
How many top players have we signed from Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Blackburn or Leeds when they've been genuine title contenders over the past two decades? None is my guess.
It's not so much being the biggest spenders. That's not my point. My point is having the most financial muscle in the league. Besides the one time where Blackburn won the title due to a sugar daddy, I'm quite sure up until Abramovich entered the league, we had the most financial muscle. It showed with all the transfer records we broke.
Just trying to raise the point that if given the chance, I doubt we would be much different.
Under the assumption he wouldn't have left anyway, that's true. But that's rarely the case, because Bayern isn't a bigger club than Barca, Real, United and it never was the case "Bayern or staying", it was always "Bayern or one of the big ones abroad" with these deals, Ballack for example.
Leverkusen finished ahead of Bayern in 10/11 and they didn't want to sell us Vidal, because they thought they could challenge. They sold him to Juve, we bought Martinez this year, don't think that was a great deal for them. I think they could have made more money from us, we love to pay over the top for players from german clubs. But they wanted to make a statement, fair enough. I wouldn't mind if Dortmund are doing the same with Lewandowski. Not sure if it's a smart decision though.
Guarantee of course not, but I highly doubt they miss out on the CL the next years. Having 4 CL places now is a huge advantage. It was way more difficult to establish a second top club in germany with only 3 (2 and 1 play off) available. I think that will be a huge problem in Italy, now that the top3 (Juve, Milan, Inter) want to work within FFP. Dortmund still have an incredible core of players and as long as they manage to keep Gündogan, Hummels, Sahin, Bender, Reus, Kuba they'll be fine and can build around them. The only one with a relsease clause in his contract is Reus and they try to extend his contract and take it out, hopefully it works out. But let's wait what players they bring in this summer, then we know more.
Of the last 10 times the transfer record has been broken in this country, Man Utd have broken that record 4 times. In reality, it is more because the site doesn't consider the Keane transfer a record transfer at the time because Waddle, Gazza and Platt had been sold to clubs abroad for more than the 3.75 million Man Utd paid at the time.
Man Utd may not be as bad as Bayern at buying players from direct or near rivals (though the examples have already been given in the thread) but its done. And trying to say that Man Utd didn't have an edge in the past, in terms of transfers paid, wage bill or overall turnover, is quite a strange argument imo.
Cantona came over months after winning the old Div 1 with Leeds, although he was rapidly falling out of favour there at the time.
This is silly. To be a title challenger, a team likely has very good players. Teams like Bayern, who want to compete for every trophy every year want to have good players. Thus, they will be interested in very good players who have already proved they can have success in Germany. Simple.
As has been pointed out several times, the same can be applied to Van Persie.
Personally, I'd guess that Bayern wanted Ze Roberto and Ballack because they were very good players but if you're sure then I guess I'll have to defer to you on that one.
Well I think we can all agree that United were no saints either. The point many, as me, are making though is that if it's one club doing it. One club only that is able to pay whatever is needed to get whoever they want from their rivals it's not good for the league. And that is the reason why many are not so much into Bayern Munich.
Balu is right when he says that Bayern might not be the only reason for that. Many clubs were run poorly as well. But for me Bayern are also responsible for the league beeing not as attractive as it could be.
Clubs like Dortmund will lose their best players, as long as they aren't able to pay the same wages as the top clubs and as long as they can't guarantee success in the long term. But to lose them to the biggest rival domestically is even more of a blow.
But being at fault for that doesn't making them disgusting and cnuts, it makes them smart.
If we could do what they do we would, absolutely, no question about it. This idea that we don't sign players off our main rivals because we want to keep the league healthy and competitive is absolutely mental.
Of course and I agree with you on that. I've already said I immensely dislike Bayern for what they're doing to Dortmund (and for what they did in the CL final last season
) but the moral high ground of some on here is strange. There really isn't a moral high ground. Also, of course it doesn't look great when its one behemoth doing it but I think I'd prefer that to what we have here tbh. Here we have one behemoth and 2 clubs who are so rich they can act in pretty much the same way (it was nice of Chelsea to nab Arsenen off us for example, after we'd spent a long time looking for a DoF) or how they spent a whole summer unsettling Modric.
I think I'd have a more optimistic view of how Spurs could establish themselves in the CL and as potential title challengers in the Bundesliga than in the PL where 3 of the 4 spots are likely going to be tied up for the majority of seasons. I'm not so sure that its great for the rest of us when its 3 clubs rather than 1.
What does 'financial muscle' even mean if not the ability to spend the most on transfers and wages? Liverpool consistently outspent us on both throughout the 90s, as did Leeds for a brief, inglorious period at the turn of the century. Newcastle and Boro also paid better wages than we did for a time, and of course Blackburn were the proto-Chelsea for half the decade.
What does the record have to do with anything? It's the same silly line City fans use to try and pretend what they're doing is comparable to how we built our success. The year we broke the British transfer record signing one player, Blackburn bought half a dozen for 14 million pounds. The next summer, after we'd won the double, we bought David May and Liverpool spent 17 million on players.
It's not a strange argument, it's a fact. Up until 2000 we were merely one of a group of clubs with a decent amount of money, but we were never out in front until 2001, when we started to look like we'd become a Bayern Munich, but then Roman showed up and changed everything.
The comparisions to the RvP deal are off because he has had many years at Arsenal. Many years in which he had the opportunity to win sth. He couldnt. The longer he stayed there the more he drifted away from getting some silverware. Arsenal were arguably not at all, but surely not the only title contender for United the moment he eventually left.
I'm not trying to pretend United are saints though. We would probably do the same. BUT we are not in the same position. No one is. Bayern have reached a kind of financial monopole in the BL and for me this isnt good for the league.
They might not be the only ones responsible for that but they also are, by buying the best players from their direct league rivals.
And of course Ze Roberto and Ballack were great players, but getting them from your title rival is a lot sweeter isnt it? And other clubs in Germany often couldnt afford not to sell to Bayern.
Dortmund gave gratis Gotze? I wasn't informed for that so thank you. I always get impression that Bayern paid 31.5m pounds for him, exactly that amount of money Dortmund gave in his contract. They get good compensated for him.
Why will be Bayern's fault if next season Reus won't perform well?
Really? Do you think this Arsenal side would have contested us all the way to the title with RvP leading their line?
Nope, but they would have been much stronger and with some good investments they could have actually challenge in the future. Now they are one steps behind than they were last year.
And please, I know that we love Dortmund very much. I like it too and when United got eliminated I hoped that they will win the UCL, but did someone called them cnuts and disgusting club when they did to Monchengladbach the same thing Bayern did to them this season (Reus transfer).
Of course and I agree with you on that. I've already said I immensely dislike Bayern for what they're doing to Dortmund (and for what they did in the CL final last season
Also, of course it doesn't look great when its one behemoth doing it but I think I'd prefer that to what we have here tbh. Here we have one behemoth and 2 clubs who are so rich they can act in pretty much the same way (it was nice of Chelsea to nab Arsenen off us for example, after we'd spent a long time looking for a DoF) or how they spent a whole summer unsettling Modric.
I think I'd have a more optimistic view of how Spurs could establish themselves in the CL and as potential title challengers in the Bundesliga than in the PL where 3 of the 4 spots are likely going to be tied up for the majority of seasons. I'm not so sure that its great for the rest of us when its 3 clubs rather than 1.
I see where you are coming from but it wouldnt make much of a difference in reality. You can get into the CL spots here as much as you could do it in the BL.
In fact when you reach a stage from where you could consider yourself beeing title contenders you are more comfortable here than in the BL.
United cannot afford to buy your biggest players year for year. Nor are you really forced to as long as your players don't want to leave. And City and Chelea could have the problem to meet the FFP.
Bayern don't have any of those problems. They are so well run they could easily get Bale and whoever they want from you the moment you look like challengers.
That's true by the way but for totally different reasons than the ones you mentioned. Bayern are at fault for things that happened between 2002 and 2005 and lead to the decline of the league back then. Our involvement in the Kirch-crisis in 2002 is embarrassing and if everything had gone our way, we probably would have ruined the league for good. The tv deals would have been just as bad as in Spain. After KirchMedia went bankrupt and the new tv deals were negotiated with Premiere (now Sky), everything changed for the better. German football was basically completely rebuilt - not only youth development, the whole structure of the leagues, the tv deals, marketing, manager schools - and it took almost 10 years to get back to the top.
Erm, Reus was their academy product which they bought back from Mönchengladbach after I think 3 years for €17m. Mönchengladbach weren't even close to challenging Dortmund for anything and wouldn't have been, they don't have the squad and would have to spend heavily to reach that kind of level. They didn't destroy their closest rival.
I think that as long as Klopp is there, Dortmund will bounce back. They were supposed to have between €30m and €50m available for transfers even before departures, with Götze and Lewandowski gone they will have around €100m to spend and will also be able to offer very good wages. Klopp has been tremendous in the market so far and could do wonders with that sort of money. They need depth too, and perhaps some defensive signings along with replacements for departing players and I reckon they will sign 4-5 very good players that will make them even stronger. Never underestimate Klopp's ability to improve players too, he transformed Piszczek from an awful winger to a world class full back and turned Lewandowski from a simply promising player into one of the best and most complete forwards in the world.
Didnt know that. Very interesting indeed, my Bayern supporting friends here haven't told me about that neither.
And most of those things, also the ones I mentioned the ones that you don't consider as bad, Hoeneß is responsible for.
But like I said, there's only 1 club taking up that position in Germany. There's 3 in England, who barring appalling seasons will finish 1-3. That leaves just one spot for Arsenal, us, Liverpool and Everton.
Right, because I am both deeply bored and deeply boring, here's a list of every English club we've signed a player from in the PL era (up to and including Wilf this summer) and their last football league finish before we signed the player:
Putting aside quirks like us signing Cantona from the champions because they wanted rid of him, and signing David May from the runners up because they didn't really care about him, I'd say it's obvious that the only examples of us 'doing a Bayern' are Cole and Van Persie. I suppose a case could be made for Carrick, at a push, but not Rio, because Leeds were desperate to sell. I might make a comparable list for Bayern later on, but suffice it to say there are a few more examples than two...
Palace-2013-25th
Zaha
Crewe-2012-75th
Powell
Arsenal-2012-3rd
Van Persie
Blackburn-2011-15th
Jones
Villa-2011-9th
Young
Fulham-2010-12th
Smalling
Wigan-2009 -11th
Valencia
Spurs-2008-11th
Berbatov
WBA-2006-19th
PIG
Spurs-2006-5th
Carrick
Fulham-2005-13th
Van Der Sar
Stoke-2005-32nd
Foster
Everton-2004-17th
Rooney
Leeds-2004-19th
Smith
Fulham-2003-14th
Saha
Sunderland-2003-20th
Bellion
Leeds-2002-5th
Ferdinand
Wigan-2001-50th
Caroll
Villa-1998-7th
Yorke
York-1997-64th
Greening
Blackburn-1997-13th
Berg
Spurs-1997-10th
Sheringham
City-1995-17th
Cotton
Newcastle-1994-3rd
Cole
Blackburn-1994-2nd
May
Forest-1993-22nd
Keane
Leeds-1992-1st
Cantona
Cambridge-1992-27th
Dublin
Zaha
Crewe-2012-75th
Powell
Arsenal-2012-3rd
Van Persie
Blackburn-2011-15th
Jones
Villa-2011-9th
Young
Fulham-2010-12th
Smalling
Wigan-2009 -11th
Valencia
Spurs-2008-11th
Berbatov
WBA-2006-19th
PIG
Spurs-2006-5th
Carrick
Fulham-2005-13th
Van Der Sar
Stoke-2005-32nd
Foster
Everton-2004-17th
Rooney
Leeds-2004-19th
Smith
Fulham-2003-14th
Saha
Sunderland-2003-20th
Bellion
Leeds-2002-5th
Ferdinand
Wigan-2001-50th
Caroll
Villa-1998-7th
Yorke
York-1997-64th
Greening
Blackburn-1997-13th
Berg
Spurs-1997-10th
Sheringham
City-1995-17th
Cotton
Newcastle-1994-3rd
Cole
Blackburn-1994-2nd
May
Forest-1993-22nd
Keane
Leeds-1992-1st
Cantona
Cambridge-1992-27th
Dublin
Putting aside quirks like us signing Cantona from the champions because they wanted rid of him, and signing David May from the runners up because they didn't really care about him, I'd say it's obvious that the only examples of us 'doing a Bayern' are Cole and Van Persie. I suppose a case could be made for Carrick, at a push, but not Rio, because Leeds were desperate to sell. I might make a comparable list for Bayern later on, but suffice it to say there are a few more examples than two...
- Status