Robert Lewandowski

[Revan]

The comparisions to the RvP deal are off because he has had many years at Arsenal. Many years in which he had the opportunity to win sth. He couldnt. The longer he stayed there the more he drifted away from getting some silverware. Arsenal were arguably not at all, but surely not the only title contender for United the moment he eventually left.

I'm not trying to pretend United are saints though. We would probably do the same. BUT we are not in the same position. No one is. Bayern have reached a kind of financial monopole in the BL and for me this isnt good for the league.
They might not be the only ones responsible for that but they also are, by buying the best players from their direct league rivals.
And of course Ze Roberto and Ballack were great players, but getting them from your title rival is a lot sweeter isnt it? And other clubs in Germany often couldnt afford not to sell to Bayern.

The difference in money between Bayern and BVB is not that big as you are saying. As Balu said at the end of the year, Bayern's revenue would be about 400m EUR while Dortmund would be around 300m. Hardly that big as you are suggesting to be. Definitely not as big as BarceMadrid with the rest of the league. The league will be competitive as it is. We always say that EPL is that competitive (someone who doesn't watch the league, by reading the CAF would think that we are Serie A of eighties) but if it wasn't for an offside goal by Drogba (or by Terry if you prefer the game in OT), United would have won the league 5 times in a row. Or if it wasn't for that Aguero goal, we would have won it 7 times in a row. As it is, it's 5 times in the last 7 years that is much more than Bayern and still more than Barca.

Anyway, Bayern is doing exactly the same thing every team in their shoes would have done. They are getting the best players to create the best team. Tell me a single team that wouldn't have done that. Tell me that we would have refused a young Gerrard and Lampard, Shearer, Henry, Wilshere, Bale, Toure, Silva, Mata or Aguero. We in fact have been interested for most of them.

And finally both Gotze and Lewa wanted to go out of BVB (especially Lewa). Would it have made a big difference if they would have signed for us, Madrid, Chelsea or Barca and Bayern would have signed Isco/Rodriguez and Falcao/Cavani/Rooney instead?

 

[Shinjisan]

But like I said, there's only 1 club taking up that position in Germany. There's 3 in England, who barring appalling seasons will finish 1-3. That leaves just one spot for Arsenal, us, Liverpool and Everton.

There were two spots for you. Your fault that you fecked it up.

Blame Levy for that, no one else. If Modric was sold early and the money used wisely, you might have had some depth to win the 3rd or the 4th place.

 

[Platato]

What does 'financial muscle' even mean if not the ability to spend the most on transfers and wages? Liverpool consistently outspent us on both throughout the 90s, as did Leeds for a brief, inglorious period at the turn of the century. Newcastle and Boro also paid better wages than we did for a time, and of course Blackburn were the proto-Chelsea for half the decade.

Are you saying we didn't have that? Newcastle and Boro for how long? Just because we got outspent doesn't mean we didn't have the ability to offer more in terms of wages or transfer fees.

Again, I'm perpetuating the idea that without the introduction of Roman, we could be in a similar situation to Bayern. In fact, I would say we'd be even more dominant. Only reason I said 'cnuts' is the few times we have bought players for pretty big money (i.e. Ferdinand and Rooney)within England to strengthen our own position. As others have said, it's smart business. Didn't we buy Yorke not too long after his days with Villa? They weren't title challengers at the time but that could maybe serve as an example of buying within the league to strengthen our position.

I think it's safe to say while the majority of our transfers during Fergie's reign werent examples of buying players directly from our title rivals, we did look to bring talented players from clubs just a level below to the best club in the land.

Thing is though, for the people crying foul about Bayern, if you look at their current team, not sure how many of those players came from direct title rivals. Nonetheless, Bayern do have a track record of buying some of the best talent within their own country.

 

[Platato]

Lewandowski's agent is a parasite. Repeatedly stating his client is leaving.

 

[africanspur]

There were two spots for you. Your fault that you fecked it up.

Blame Levy for that, no one else. If Modric was sold early and the money used wisely, you might have had some depth to win the 3rd or the 4th place.

Because Chelsea had a poor season. Like I said. Once they spend another 100 million this summer, they won't be picking up 75 points again.

I think we're doing about as well as we can given our resources at the moment and our inability to access CL football. We have the 6th biggest wage bill in the country.

If Modric was sold early on, we would have picked up a rubbish amount of money for him. Some of you go on about selling early as if its the priority, even if the offer is shit. As if you would have just sold early if Real had offered 40 million for Ronaldo for example.

 

[Revan]

Erm, Reus was their academy product which they bought back from Mönchengladbach after I think 3 years for €17m. Mönchengladbach weren't even close to challenging Dortmund for anything and wouldn't have been, they don't have the squad and would have to spend heavily to reach that kind of level. They didn't destroy their closest rival.

Monchengladbach almost got qualified for UCL, and if I remember correctly they competed with Bayern and BVB during the first half of the league. Getting their best player from them, of course that means a lot, especially for a team that wasn't that good as BVB but was in a process of building.

What does it matter that he was a product of BVB? By this, I think that you won't complain if Bayern signs Hummels, right? And Gotze was a Bavarian too.

 

[Godfather]

But like I said, there's only 1 club taking up that position in Germany. There's 3 in England, who barring appalling seasons will finish 1-3. That leaves just one spot for Arsenal, us, Liverpool and Everton.

Yeah but that's a different matter. Spurs could have easily got into the CL spots this year. City and Chelsea had woeful seasons, not to mention Arsenal. Who says Spurs can't do it in the future as well.
And generally, even with Bayern beeing the only one, in the long run, who'll always contend for the trophy, Spurs getting past the other clubs to get into the CL places is no given neither. Even without the fiancial power Dortmund/Schalke/Leverkusen are always there or thereabouts.

And feck Liverpool. They are owned by rich yanks and still feck up. Spending so huge amounts of money and still fecking up, they won't get symphathy from me.

 

[Lailiani]

Please, Bayern don't sign all these players just because they need to strengthen themselves. They sign them partly because they want to weaken their rivals. Does United sign players for the sake of it? I don't think so. We hardly ever go after the shiniest toys of our biggest rivals - but this is exactly what Bayern do.

There's a reason why they are so despised in Germany and it's not a new development. I'm 26 years old and Bayern have been this unpopular with neutral German fans at least since my childhood. 'Zieht den Bayern die Lederhosen aus' is a very famous slogan in Germany.

And famous German band 'Die Toten Hosen' has a great anti Bayern song:

 

[Shinjisan]

@Revan

Below link has the Deloitte Football Money League 2012 table.

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/.../d7b295aa0c415310VgnVCM1000001a56f00aRCRD.htm

The revenues for the German clubs in the top 20.

(4) Bayern Munich - €321.4m
.
.
.
(10) Schalke - €202.4m
.
.
.
(16) Dortmund - €138.5m
.
.(18) Hamburg - €128.8m

 

[Balu]

It's not a strange argument, it's a fact. Up until 2000 we were merely one of a group of clubs with a decent amount of money, but we were never out in front until 2001, when we started to look like we'd become a Bayern Munich, but then Roman showed up and changed everything.

I know you used Bayern as a synonym there but just to clarify Dortmund outspend Bayern from around 94 to 2002. Bayern became "a Bayern" 10 years ago. Both leagues went in total different directions, the Bundesliga went downhill because german pay tv went bankrupt and the clubs had basically no tv money and had to rebuild their studiums for the world cup the next years which cost a lot of money. The premier league skyrocket with perfect marketing and sugar daddies bringing foreign super stars to the league.

I get the feeling that most people around here think the status quo in germany is how it has always been financially, that's not true at all.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Please, Bayern don't sign all these players just because they need to strengthen themselves. They sign them partly because they want to weaken their rivals. Does United sign players for the sake of it? I don't think so. We hardly ever go after the shiniest toys of our biggest rivals - but this is exactly what Bayern do.

Nobody is disputing that, but Gotze and Lewa are both definitely steps up from what they currently have available in those areas (and the former is likely to be one of the best footballers in the world in a few years) and they will make them a stronger team. if this was a case of them buying two players off Dortmund who they will plop on the bench for most matches and won't actually improve them as a team, then yes, your argument could hold truth. But it's not, they're making their own team stronger by buying these players.

If I was in charge of Bayern, from a financial perspective, I would do the exact same thing, most clubs and businesses would do too, it's like the most blatantly obvious move ever. As Balu very cleverly pointed out, Lewa was probably going to leave anyway, so what difference did it make that he left for Bayern, cause if they didn't get him, they'd probably just go for Rooney or someone else.

 

[africanspur]

There are a total of 8 players in Bayern's current squad bought from the Bundesliga. Neuer, Dante, Van Buyten, the two striker Marios, Pizarro, Luis Gustavo, Starke.

Though 9 (and possibly 10 I guess) with the Dortmund duo.

Same for Man Utd's squad I think.

 

[Anduin]

I get the feeling that most people around here think the status quo in germany is how it has always been financially, that's not true at all.

You always bought talent from most other clubs, as your club has been the biggest in Germany since the 1970s. You moved up a couple of gears in the last 15 years though, I totally agree. Building the Allianz Arena has cemented your place as a European powerhorse and even though I'm not exactly a Bayern Munich supporter I admire how Hoeness, Rummenigge and the board has run the club in the last decade.
His private dealings aside Hoeness has done an extraordinary jobs in 2-3 decades before moving one level up to become president.

 

[Revan]

Please, Bayern don't sign all these players just because they need to strengthen themselves. They sign them partly because they want to weaken their rivals. Does United sign players for the sake of it? I don't think so. We hardly ever go after the shiniest toys of our biggest rivals - but this is exactly what Bayern do.

Tell me one player they signed just to weaken their rivals.

And a lot of people hate United, in fact I think that more people hate United in England than any other team. And a lot of people hate Real. And a lot hate Juve. It is normal that the most successful team in the country to be hated most.

@Revan

Below link has the Deloitte Football Money League 2012 table.

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/.../d7b295aa0c415310VgnVCM1000001a56f00aRCRD.htm

The revenues for the German clubs in the top 20.

(4) Bayern Munich - €321.4m
.
.
.
(10) Schalke - €202.4m
.
.
.
(16) Dortmund - €138.5m
.
.(18) Hamburg - €128.8m

From Wiki:

Dortmund is the second biggest sports club in Germany and the eleventh biggest football club in the world, generating €189.1 million in 2012

I don't know how reliable it is. Anyway, with those extra money from UCL and with more than 50m pounds from transfers of LewaGotze, they will be around 300m EURO revenue by the end of the season. They can always make an English club and raise ticket prices if they want some extra cash too.

 

[Chabon]

Are you saying we didn't have that? Newcastle and Boro for how long? Just because we got outspent doesn't mean we didn't have the ability to offer more in terms of wages or transfer fees.

We have never, at any point, had the financial dominance that Bayern have had over their league in recent years. In the 90s we were one of a host of reasonably wealthy clubs, but we got outspent consistently on transfers and wages because we spent our money on more useful things (the academy and Old Trafford), and in the early 2000s we started to pull ahead, and by 2002 we looked set to become akin to the modern Bayern Munich, like you said, but then Abramovich came and put us in a very distant second place.

 

[Balu]

Erm, Reus was their academy product which they bought back from Mönchengladbach after I think 3 years for €17m. Mönchengladbach weren't even close to challenging Dortmund for anything and wouldn't have been, they don't have the squad and would have to spend heavily to reach that kind of level. They didn't destroy their closest rival.

That's pretty hypocritical. Gladbach were an exciting team and lost their three best players to Dortmund (Reus), Schalke (Neustädter) and Bayern (Dante). Gladbach's manager compared it to Barca having to replace Messi, Xavi and Puyol in one season and that's pretty accurate. Gladbach probably would have had a shot at the CL group stages if they kept the team together and could have established themselves as a top4 club in germany. They never got the chance and Dortmund buying Reus was probably the biggest factor.

Oh and what's got that to do with Reus being a former Dortmund youth player. If Bayern buys Hummels, it's fine but if they buy Götze it's wrong?

 

[africanspur]

Yeah but that's a different matter. Spurs could have easily got into the CL spots this year. City and Chelsea had woeful seasons, not to mention Arsenal. Who says Spurs can't do it in the future as well.
And generally, even with Bayern beeing the only one, in the long run, who'll always contend for the trophy, Spurs getting past the other clubs to get into the CL places is no given neither. Even without the fiancial power Dortmund/Schalke/Leverkusen are always there or thereabouts.

And feck Liverpool. They are owned by rich yanks and still feck up. Spending so huge amounts of money and still fecking up, they won't get symphathy from me.

My point was that the German clubs don't have the ability to do what Chelsea and Man City can when their top 4 place is in doubt. What did Abrahmovich do the 1st season they looked a bit dodgy with regards to qualifying? He spent 75 million in January.

What did he do last summer after coming 6th? Another 75 million.

Leverkusen and Schalke can't do that and long term, we can't really compete with that.

 

[Shinjisan]

My point was that the German clubs don't have the ability to do what Chelsea and Man City can when their top 4 place is in doubt. What did Abrahmovich do the 1st season they looked a bit dodgy with regards to qualifying? He spent 75 million in January.

What did he do last summer after coming 6th? Another 75 million.

Leverkusen and Schalke can't do that and long term, we can't really compete with that.

That is another myth. Not every club is complied under the 50+1 rule.

Leverkusen are owned by 100% by Bayer and Wolfburg by Volkswagen, as they have been investing in the clubs for over 20 years. Hannover has challenged the ruling in a court of law.

If those clubs want they can do a Roman or a Sheikh. It's another matter that they don't want to.

 

[Platato]

We have never, at any point, had the financial dominance that Bayern have had over their league in recent years. In the 90s we were one of a host of reasonably wealthy clubs, but we got outspent consistently on transfers and wages because we spent our money on more useful things (the academy and Old Trafford), and in the early 2000s we started to pull ahead, and by 2002 we looked set to become akin to the modern Bayern Munich, like you said, but then Abramovich came and put us in a very distant second place.

Aye. Isn't it true we were one of the clubs to benefit the most from the inception of the premier league? You know, the notion that the introduction of Sky and Murdoch and the money gained from their introduction helped provide more revenue for us. Perhaps it wasn't enough to make the wealthiest club but I'd have to check on the figures again from season to season to remember how exactly we developed. There was certainly one season where the transfer fees began to shoot up.

 

[africanspur]

That is another myth. Not every club is complied under the 50+1 rule.

Leverkusen are owned by 100% by Bayer and Wolfburg by Volkswagen, as they have been investing in the clubs for over 20 years. Hannover has challenged the ruling in a court of law.

If those clubs want they can do a Roman or a Sheikh. It's another matter that they don't want to.

Its not really a myth though is it? There are smaller versions of City and Chelsea within our own league (Aston Villa, Wigan, Fulham etc) and they don't have the capability or the desire to spend Chelsea/ Man City levels of money.

Whatever the reasons for it in Germany, neither have those clubs.

 

[Balu]

That is another myth. Not every club is complied under the 50+1 rule.

Leverkusen are owned by 100% by Bayer and Wolfburg by Volkswagen, as they have been investing in the clubs for over 20 years. Hannover has challenged the ruling in a court of law.

If those clubs want they can do a Roman or a Sheikh. It's another matter that they don't want to.

It's not really the same, not to the same degree at least. Managers of a huge company like VW or Bayer have to explain themselves to a board as well. They can't just spend millions like Roman or Moratti, Berlusconi did in the past in Italy without consequences.

But yes, there are few exceptions to the 50+1 rule, though it would always be a long term project. Investors could buy into the club and then wait for 20 years to gain control for the club. Don't think that's as much fun as buying a club somewhere else and instantly start playing.

 

[FCBayern]

Read several things in here:

1. Bayern buys the biggest talent from their national rivals

Let's get this straight. Who have been rivals during the last 5 years? I'll rate everyone within 10 points rage at the final table.

Season 08/09:
1. Wolfsburg (69), 2. Bayern (67), 3. Stuttgart (64), 4. Hertha (63), 5. Hamburg (61), 6. Dortmund (59)
From these teams Bayern bought Gomez (Stuttgart) and Olic (Hamburg). They also sold Hummels to Dortmund after that season (he was on loan during the season at Dortmund).
Hottest transfer in that season were Marin (to Bremen) and Gomez (Bayern).
Also Bayern integrated Badstuber and Müller to the team.

Season 09/10:
1. Bayern (70), 2. Schalke (65), 3. Bremen (61)
From these teams Bayern bought none. However they bought Gustavo from Hoffenheim, as they lost van Bommel.
Hottest transfer targets in that season were Khedira (Real), Dzeko (City), Özil (Real) , Boateng (City).
Also Bayern integrated Alaba to the team.

Season 10/11:
1. Dortmund (75), Leverkusen (68), Bayern (65), Hannover (60), Mainz (58)
From these teams Bayern bought none. However they bought Neuer from Schalke, as they needed to adress their keeper problem.
Hottest transfer targets in that season were Sahin (Real), Vidal (Turin), Cisse (Newcastle), Schürrle (Leverkusen).

Season 10/11:
1. Dortmund (81), 2, Bayern (73), 3. Schalke (64)
From these teams Bayern bought none. However they bought Mandzukic from Wolfsburg which was rather surprising.
Hottest transfer targets in that season were Kagawa (Utd), Reus (Dortmund), Marin (Chelsea)

Season 11/12:
Well not much sense as none was in the defined 10 point range, but let's say it'll be Dortmund; then we have the Goetze transfer who probably would have been the hottest transfer-target .

--> That written I suggest that Real Madrid is buying all the talent from Bundesliga (Özil, Khedira, Sahin) vs. Bayern (Gomez, Neuer).

If I missed a transfer, I am sorry. I just verified for transfers to Bayern, rest is from my mind.

2. Bayern is just doing it for weakening opposition

All past transfers have raised the quality strongly or was needed. To be fair you can argue that this is not the case for Goetze (nor Lewandowski, but I refuse to believe he'll join us this summer).
On the other hand you need to realise that in Germany you need to have at least 12 german players in the team and at least 8 players who have been developed in Germany. Fulfilling this quota with players who really can have an impact to the team requires transfers.

For all top-transfers made by Bayern during this time, I fully guarantee to you that they would have been transferred anyway. Gomez, Neuer, Goetze would have easily gotten contracts at all top sides in Europe.

3. Bayern is weakening opposition with their transfers

The money they have been paying for their transfers has been enormous. Let's take Dortmund with the Neuer deal as an example. Schalkes biggest problem at that time has been the lack of depth in their team and their ability to replace people. 35 Mio. EUR could have helped a lot. Also in my impression Bayern has never screwed someone at transfer negotiations but has always paid considerably fair prices. No keeper has ever had a higher price tag than Neuer, Gomez had the record fee at that time, 15 million for Gustavo have been huge, ...

4. Bayern is disgusting

If they are, so is everyone else in a free market. Who is not trying to get the best possible for fair prices?
Please show me one top team (incl. Dortmund) not buying from other (less successful) teams.

Dortmund has developed Goetze, Schmelzer, Sahin, Reus (regular starters).
Bayern has developed Badstuber, Müller, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Alaba, Kroos (regular starters).
Not much difference, eh? Where do you think the other Dortmund players come from?

Other countries? So do Bayern players (Ribery, Robben, Boateng, ...)
Other clubs, not directly competing? So do Bayern players (Dante, Gustavo, ...)

This is just pure dislike driven hypocrisy. If you want to strengthen the league you need to strengthen the teams by higher revenues, not by weakening Bayern. This might happen due to new deals for TV revenues, better balance between clubs with champions league income and professional management.

Wolfsburg is cofinanced by Volkswagen, which is the same like a sugar daddy. Dortmund has everything necessary to grow as a club, so do Berlin, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Schalke. The mismanagement is not the fault of Bayern. The clubs have every chance to become constant contenders.

By the way; Bayern buying players is also just a temporary problem; having the squad they have at the moment it will become more difficult to strengthen is with international mediocre transfers like Gustavo, Dante, Mandzukic. Bayern will in future raise investments into one single player and reduce the amount of players needed.

 

[strongwalker]

Tell me one player they signed just to weaken their rivals.

Calle del'Haye.

And, they bought Podolski mostly so that Bremen didn't get him..

That being said, the rest of Llanis remarks is just the usual spite. Bayern made the mistake in 2001 to not renew he team fast enough. They wo't make the same mistake again.

Oh, and that "Hosen"-song is amusing. I hear the Bayern squad sings it after wins.

 

[Revan]

Calle del'Haye.

And, they bought Podolski mostly so that Bremen didn't get him..

Don't have any idea who is del'Haye.

Podolski was signed to strengthen them. He played a considerable amount of games there and if I remember correctly he was titular in first two seasons there (I think that the coach opted more for him than for Pizarro).

 

[Balu]

Calle del'Haye.

And, they bought Podolski mostly so that Bremen didn't get him..

That being said, the rest of Llanis remarks is just the usual spite. Bayern made the mistake in 2001 to not renew he team fast enough. They wo't make the same mistake again.

Oh, and that "Hosen"-song is amusing. I hear the Bayern squad sings it after wins.

That was Schlaudraff. There wasn't anything controversial about the Podolski signing. And Schlaudraff could have been a pretty good squad player, but he got injured in pre season and struggled throughout the year. He was a 1.5 million signing from a team that got relegated to the 2. Bundesliga and we sold him for 2.5 millions the next year, hardly a significant signing that weakend a rival.

 

[Sphaero]

@Revan

Below link has the Deloitte Football Money League 2012 table.

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/.../d7b295aa0c415310VgnVCM1000001a56f00aRCRD.htm

The revenues for the German clubs in the top 20.

(4) Bayern Munich - €321.4m
.
.
.
(10) Schalke - €202.4m
.
.
.
(16) Dortmund - €138.5m
.
.(18) Hamburg - €128.8m

If we want to discuss financial matters, we should at least use actual figures. Your figures are over a year old.

This is the current Deloitte money league:
http://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-Azerbaijan/Local%20Assets/Documents/footballmoneyleague2013.pdf

Here Dortmund is 11th with a revenue of around 190 Mil€. They will make another big jump in this year, finishing this season with at least 250 Mil€, which will make them quite comfortably a top 10 club in terms of revenue. Bear in mind, that all those figure don´t take transfers into account, so Dortmund´s financial ressources will be even bigger in this transfer window.

However, the difference to Bayern is still over 100Mil€ and especially the differences in wages are still massive. The officials of Dortmund are right now working to close this gap somewhat. Huge discrepances like in the case of Götze, who will get three times as much salary in Munich (top earner and highest salary in their history with around 12Mil € pa.) won´t be repeated.

At the same time, the difference between Dortmund and the third Schalke, who have lost ground financially in the last years, is also quite big.

Dortmund is right now set to play CL in the forseeable future, which will at least stabilize their current revenue. Even in this season, where the focus clearly lay on the CL and they payed in the league for their lacking depth, they still finished more than ten points in front of Schalke (4th) and 15 points in front of the fifth Freiburg.

Losing Lewandowski and the little cnut in this summer is a clear blow, but this and also the massive profit at the end of the season will allow them to spend big for the first time in ages.

They already bought the highly rated Greek defensive allrounder Sokratis from Bremen for 10Mil €, who is a clear upgrade to the leaving Santana. Lets wait until the end of the summer. It is quite possible that Dortmund will come out even stronger than now, especially in terms of depth.

 

[Balu]

Don't have any idea who is del'Haye.

Karl del'Haye was a player from Gladbach. Bayern signed him for a record fee of 1.3million Mark in 1980 and he became a squad player who was mostly benched. The funny thing is, he played more for Bayern than he played for Gladbach if I remember correctly. It was just an aweful transfer that didn't work out and because he wasn't as good as his transfer amount suggested and Bayern didn't start him all the time he became the synonym for that "buying to weaken your opponent" myth.

Totally forgot, but I had to check, wasn't sure how Gladbach were doing at that time. Bayern were champions in 79/80 and Gladbach finished 7th, they finished 10th the year before. They weren't competing against each other for the title anymore, but because of the club's history in the seventies, it was somewhat controversial.

 

[Anduin]

I don't think it's fair to say that Bayern always 'only' buy to weaken rivals. Most of the time it's just a side effect really, with the seller being incapable of replacing the departing talent with the money they get. It's not like they pay peanuts for the players anyway.

It's similar with us, we buy a player (e.g. RvP), significantly weaken a rival (I know Arsenal are no 'true' title rivals at all, but neither were HSV for example when Bayern bought Van Buyten or Stuttgart when they bought Elber), but mainly strengthen ourselves. Hardly Bayern's fault that the other clubs don't spend the money wisely.

 

[Revan]

Karl del'Haye was a player from Gladbach. Bayern signed him for a record fee of 1.3million Mark in 1980 and he became a squad player who was mostly benched. The funny thing is, he played more for Bayern than he played for Gladbach if I remember correctly. It was just an aweful transfer that didn't work out and because he wasn't as good as his transfer amount suggested and Bayern didn't start him all the time he became the synonym for that "buying to weaken your opponent" myth.

I checked a bit on Wiki and there isn't that much info for that. But, I believe you and was thinking myself that it is only a myth.

 

[Revan]

Hardly Bayern's fault that the other clubs don't spend the money wisely.

Or that they put ridiculous clauses in their contracts (Gotze). Or that they leave their best two players in the last year of their contract (Kagawa and Lewandowski). In all three case I think that it was a poor management by Dortmund. While the transfers were inevitable, still they could have got a lot more money from these players.

 

[Sphaero]

That is another myth. Not every club is complied under the 50+1 rule.

Leverkusen are owned by 100% by Bayer and Wolfburg by Volkswagen, as they have been investing in the clubs for over 20 years. Hannover has challenged the ruling in a court of law.

If those clubs want they can do a Roman or a Sheikh. It's another matter that they don't want to.

So you honestly think, that a billionaire will support a German club for over 20 years before taking charge??

No, it is way more efficent to invest into a non German club, where the regulations are not even remotely as strict as in Germany.


Oh, and btw, this myth of Bayern buying players from other German clubs just to weaken them should be forgotten, because it is indeed a relict of the past. Them going for Götze or Lewandoski is normal buisness, because they are clear upgrades for their team. Most Dortmund fans also understand this. It was the manner of the Götze transfer, especially from the little cnut himself, which enraged most fans.

There are enough things to dislike about Bayern, beginning with their arrogant board under their criminal president Hoeneß over to certain cnutish players, but the before mentioned point is not one of them.

 

[africanspur]

Who do you support by the way Sphaero?

 

[Balu]

Or that they put ridiculous clauses in their contracts (Gotze). Or that they leave their best two players in the last year of their contract (Kagawa and Lewandowski). In all three case I think that it was a poor management by Dortmund. While the transfers were inevitable, still they could have got a lot more money from these players.

Don't think that's true. They never had a chance to extend Kagawa's contract for example and it was a brilliant piece of business to find him and turn him into a great player. Same with Lewandowski, they tried to extend his contract, but if he doesn't want to, fair enough. He's earning peanuts because of that for years, he could have tripled his wages if he signed a new contract. I think Götze always planed to leave this or next season, that's why he only extended his contract with that stupid release clause.

There are two ways to make "better" contracts. Become a big club so the players don't want to leave and you have options to choose from or pay over the top wages like Porto and be forced to sell your players to make money every year. I much prefer loosing a player on the free without risking the club's existence if you can't sell him to paying silly money and be forced to sell players even if they want to stay.

 

[Sphaero]

Who do you support by the way Sphaero?

Supporter: Dortmund

Sympathies: United/Spurs/Celtic

Or that they put ridiculous clauses in their contracts (Gotze). Or that they leave their best two players in the last year of their contract (Kagawa and Lewandowski). In all three case I think that it was a poor management by Dortmund. While the transfers were inevitable, still they could have got a lot more money from these players.

This post is pretty short sighted in my opionion.

I´ll start with Götze: It is confirmed, that Götze would not have renewed his past contract without his clause. He essentially would be in the same situation as Lewandowski now (one year contract left). I doubt, that the potential transfer fee would have been more than 37 Mil. €.

Speaking of Lewandowski, negotations with him started over a year ago. At the same time, his agent Kucharski started with his disgusting antics. In the end Lewandowski stalled and wants to leave now: However, Dortmund had a world class striker for two years for essentially 3 Mil€ salary in total. The difference in wages alone would be as much as the difference of the transfer fee, if he would have transfered one year sooner.

That leaves Kagawa. In his case, there was never a possibility to sell him for more money sooner, because he was out cold for six months due to a complicated bone fracture in his right leg.


All this three players wanted to leave, but were essential for the success of the club as long as they were there. From the financial standpoint alone, the worth of them for the club when they played was more than seach 5 or 10 Mil. € more in terms of transfer fee´s.

 

[JaffyJoe]

Complaining that about Bayern is hypocritical the bigger clubs will always feed on the smaller clubs that is the nature of football it happens in all leagues. We have done it so have Real, Bayern,Juve and any other big club you care to mention.

The better question is how can it be stopped/ the answer is it can't if you are a talented player you don't dream of playing for Everton, Gladbach or Parma you want to play for the best teams they offer you more money and more chance of wining it is a no-brainer.

Dortmund is everybody's new favourite club so we are sad they are losing their best players but this is how the game is.

 

[Lailiani]

They aren't a 'new' favourite club. Along with Werder Bremen, they've always been everybody's darling. And they are not a small club. They should have the potential to keep players.

 

[apotheosis]

Read several things in here:

1. Bayern buys the biggest talent from their national rivals

Let's get this straight. Who have been rivals during the last 5 years? I'll rate everyone within 10 points rage at the final table.

Season 08/09:
1. Wolfsburg (69), 2. Bayern (67), 3. Stuttgart (64), 4. Hertha (63), 5. Hamburg (61), 6. Dortmund (59)
From these teams Bayern bought Gomez (Stuttgart) and Olic (Hamburg). They also sold Hummels to Dortmund after that season (he was on loan during the season at Dortmund).
Hottest transfer in that season were Marin (to Bremen) and Gomez (Bayern).
Also Bayern integrated Badstuber and Müller to the team.

Season 09/10:
1. Bayern (70), 2. Schalke (65), 3. Bremen (61)
From these teams Bayern bought none. However they bought Gustavo from Hoffenheim, as they lost van Bommel.
Hottest transfer targets in that season were Khedira (Real), Dzeko (City), Özil (Real) , Boateng (City).
Also Bayern integrated Alaba to the team.

Season 10/11:
1. Dortmund (75), Leverkusen (68), Bayern (65), Hannover (60), Mainz (58)
From these teams Bayern bought none. However they bought Neuer from Schalke, as they needed to adress their keeper problem.
Hottest transfer targets in that season were Sahin (Real), Vidal (Turin), Cisse (Newcastle), Schürrle (Leverkusen).

Season 10/11:
1. Dortmund (81), 2, Bayern (73), 3. Schalke (64)
From these teams Bayern bought none. However they bought Mandzukic from Wolfsburg which was rather surprising.
Hottest transfer targets in that season were Kagawa (Utd), Reus (Dortmund), Marin (Chelsea)

Season 11/12:
Well not much sense as none was in the defined 10 point range, but let's say it'll be Dortmund; then we have the Goetze transfer who probably would have been the hottest transfer-target .

--> That written I suggest that Real Madrid is buying all the talent from Bundesliga (Özil, Khedira, Sahin) vs. Bayern (Gomez, Neuer).

If I missed a transfer, I am sorry. I just verified for transfers to Bayern, rest is from my mind.

2. Bayern is just doing it for weakening opposition

All past transfers have raised the quality strongly or was needed. To be fair you can argue that this is not the case for Goetze (nor Lewandowski, but I refuse to believe he'll join us this summer).
On the other hand you need to realise that in Germany you need to have at least 12 german players in the team and at least 8 players who have been developed in Germany. Fulfilling this quota with players who really can have an impact to the team requires transfers.

For all top-transfers made by Bayern during this time, I fully guarantee to you that they would have been transferred anyway. Gomez, Neuer, Goetze would have easily gotten contracts at all top sides in Europe.

3. Bayern is weakening opposition with their transfers

The money they have been paying for their transfers has been enormous. Let's take Dortmund with the Neuer deal as an example. Schalkes biggest problem at that time has been the lack of depth in their team and their ability to replace people. 35 Mio. EUR could have helped a lot. Also in my impression Bayern has never screwed someone at transfer negotiations but has always paid considerably fair prices. No keeper has ever had a higher price tag than Neuer, Gomez had the record fee at that time, 15 million for Gustavo have been huge, ...

4. Bayern is disgusting

If they are, so is everyone else in a free market. Who is not trying to get the best possible for fair prices?
Please show me one top team (incl. Dortmund) not buying from other (less successful) teams.

Dortmund has developed Goetze, Schmelzer, Sahin, Reus (regular starters).
Bayern has developed Badstuber, Müller, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Alaba, Kroos (regular starters).
Not much difference, eh? Where do you think the other Dortmund players come from?

Other countries? So do Bayern players (Ribery, Robben, Boateng, ...)
Other clubs, not directly competing? So do Bayern players (Dante, Gustavo, ...)

This is just pure dislike driven hypocrisy. If you want to strengthen the league you need to strengthen the teams by higher revenues, not by weakening Bayern. This might happen due to new deals for TV revenues, better balance between clubs with champions league income and professional management.

Wolfsburg is cofinanced by Volkswagen, which is the same like a sugar daddy. Dortmund has everything necessary to grow as a club, so do Berlin, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Schalke. The mismanagement is not the fault of Bayern. The clubs have every chance to become constant contenders.

By the way; Bayern buying players is also just a temporary problem; having the squad they have at the moment it will become more difficult to strengthen is with international mediocre transfers like Gustavo, Dante, Mandzukic. Bayern will in future raise investments into one single player and reduce the amount of players needed.

Heh, so your belief is that the new found disdain for Bayern on here is based upon a load of bollocks basically! Not in a position to contest that myself really, but it would hardly surprise me.

It seems every team who becomes better than us has to be somehow discredited in order to make us feel better about ourselves and our less beneficial decision to make do, as opposed to addressing our weaknesses and looking to improve.

Bottom line for me is Bayern should be given huge credit for running their club intelligently, and seriously attempting to strengthen their weaknesses and improve year upon year. Neuer, Mandzukic, Dante and Martinez have made them far stronger throughout the spine of the team, and their success this year is surely the reaping of what they have sewn. We in contrast have not suitably strengthened our weak areas, and have struggled in europe as a result.

One thing i admire about the German clubs is their coordinated effort to keep the clubs owned by Germans for the benefit of all German fans. They appear to have managed to incorporate a system that hugely benefits both the clubs and the national team. It doesn't seem to cost the earth to actually go and support your team in Germany either.

So from my view there seems much to admire and very little we wouldn't benefit from by using a similar type of incorporative restructuring. But it won't happen here because profit for the few is our goal, and none of the major PL clubs give 2 fecks about either keeping the clubs english or making it affordable for the fans, and they certainly couldn't care less about the national team.

The Germans and the Spaniards have proved you can have the best of both worlds if you have the conviction and foresight to make the right choices for English football generally, and not just for a few greedy businessmen.

 

[Platato]

Or that they put ridiculous clauses in their contracts (Gotze). Or that they leave their best two players in the last year of their contract (Kagawa and Lewandowski). In all three case I think that it was a poor management by Dortmund. While the transfers were inevitable, still they could have got a lot more money from these players.

Correct and perhaps with their very quick rise, they didn't realise the consequences of their actions. Now they do and I'm sure they won't make the same mistakes again.

 

[apotheosis]

They aren't a 'new' favourite club. Along with Werder Bremen, they've always been everybody's darling. And they are not a small club. They should have the potential to keep players.

I agree. If you are pulling in 80,000 fans every week and winning titles and getting to the CL final, you would think they should be making enough money to offer their star players a competitive deal.

Players like Sahin, Kagawa, Lewandowski and most shockingly Goetze left or want to leave, rather than stay at dortmund. A club with everything in place to become a regular force, it can surely only be down to wages.

 

[Shinjisan]

If we want to discuss financial matters, we should at least use actual figures. Your figures are over a year old.

This is the current Deloitte money league:
http://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-Azerbaijan/Local%20Assets/Documents/footballmoneyleague2013.pdf

Here Dortmund is 11th with a revenue of around 190 Mil€. They will make another big jump in this year, finishing this season with at least 250 Mil€, which will make them quite comfortably a top 10 club in terms of revenue. Bear in mind, that all those figure don´t take transfers into account, so Dortmund´s financial ressources will be even bigger in this transfer window.

However, the difference to Bayern is still over 100Mil€ and especially the differences in wages are still massive. The officials of Dortmund are right now working to close this gap somewhat. Huge discrepances like in the case of Götze, who will get three times as much salary in Munich (top earner and highest salary in their history with around 12Mil € pa.) won´t be repeated.

At the same time, the difference between Dortmund and the third Schalke, who have lost ground financially in the last years, is also quite big.

Dortmund is right now set to play CL in the forseeable future, which will at least stabilize their current revenue. Even in this season, where the focus clearly lay on the CL and they payed in the league for their lacking depth, they still finished more than ten points in front of Schalke (4th) and 15 points in front of the fifth Freiburg.

Losing Lewandowski and the little cnut in this summer is a clear blow, but this and also the massive profit at the end of the season will allow them to spend big for the first time in ages.

They already bought the highly rated Greek defensive allrounder Sokratis from Bremen for 10Mil €, who is a clear upgrade to the leaving Santana. Lets wait until the end of the summer. It is quite possible that Dortmund will come out even stronger than now, especially in terms of depth.

Thanks for directing me towards the latest figures.

I don't think we should include the money generated from players sale in the future for the revenue earned at the end of this season. €250m is a healthy figure and I hope the BVB invest it wisely towards player purchase and wages to give Bayern a run for their money in the league.

So you honestly think, that a billionaire will support a German club for over 20 years before taking charge??

No, it is way more efficent to invest into a non German club, where the regulations are not even remotely as strict as in Germany.

Oh, and btw, this myth of Bayern buying players from other German clubs just to weaken them should be forgotten, because it is indeed a relict of the past. Them going for Götze or Lewandoski is normal buisness, because they are clear upgrades for their team. Most Dortmund fans also understand this. It was the manner of the Götze transfer, especially from the little cnut himself, which enraged most fans.

There are enough things to dislike about Bayern, beginning with their arrogant board under their criminal president Hoeneß over to certain cnutish players, but the before mentioned point is not one of them.

That was not the point. I mentioned it to highlight that all is not rosy in the German league and not everyone is under the 50+1 rule. A club is also challenging the legality of the whole issue in a court of law.

My posts were not made to hate on Bayern. I simply mentioned how the German league is not as competitive as the English league and how Bayern hold an advantage over the others with the TV advertising deals and their popularity in Germany. And that the presence of sugar daddy's in the English league may be cringe worthy for some but they actually help with the overall competitiveness of the league due to their teams being title contenders.