I didn't even last 60 seconds (I'm sure someone is thinking of a clever joke for this now). Maybe should watch other YT videos.
Edit: Bloody hell, that goal !
And here I was thinking he was left footed.Renato Sanches
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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Edit: Bloody hell, that goal !
And here I was thinking he was left footed.He's like Di Maria with his random balls to the box. He tried 30 crosses and if 2-3 hit the target then everybody praised him because of his excellent 'creativity'. Renato has shown this season that he can make good passes, shots and runs, but he 'wastes' too much to do the things right, and any team can't afford the fires he creates all around the field trying his stuff.
Probably that's not penalized in the portuguese league, but here we'll be punished by any half-decent team after his festival of bad passes, poor touches and wrong positions. He tries difficult things, but this itself doesn't mean anything. Everybody can take risks permanently if he wants, if he doesn't care about the consequences or if he's given license by the manager. But there has to be a balance between risk and common sense and he's lacking the latter during the whole season, without any signs of progress.
Instinctive players like him need a deeper evaluation to see if he's able to fix his weak points and add some maturity to his game. That's why I think the club sends people there every weekend. We surely have drawn his profile now with every detail, but we want to see his evolution. And I could be wrong but in my opinion he hasn't evolved anything this season and his level of performances is getting worse and worse every time.
He's relying everything on his physical conditions and attitude, and when he lacks energy he's just a mess. It's difficult for me to believe that our scouts are pushing for this move, encouraging the club to sign him now, it's just impossible. There's a lot of question marks around him that need to be cleared and he's not doing it during this time.
Renato needs one more season there, at least, and show some progress to justify firstly a big move to a better team and league, and secondly a huge fee. At the moment he's just not there, and I'm sure this transfer now will penalize both the player and us. He's just 18 and needs to learn too many things yet, even the most basic stuff. He can't fulfill the demands he would have here and he'll be more time on the bench than playing.
And then, what happens if he just doesn't have the ability to improve his tactical knowledge, his poor decision making, his poor touch? Players don't evolve in every aspect necessarily just because they're young. We know nothing about his future evolution, and if we look at these past months, this little margin of time is not encouraging at all in that sense. If this transfer happens it will be very strange, maybe 'suspicious' is the right word.
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Wait, what? How is that shot still rising when it hits the net!? That's like Ronnie vs Porto, a proper "shit! Did you see that?" strike.
Great hit but Well were we watching the same video? His passing was absolutely wild. He got very fortunate 3 or 4 times with a favourable deflection but man, some of those passes were knee waist high and as hard as his shot.
Definately think his passing is inconsistent. He has some great balls, but then again misses some easy ones. A bit like Herrera in some way. I dont think his passing is anywhere near his main strength.
A lot of Herrera's misplaced passes are trying to thread through intricate passes. A lot of those passes in the Sanches video are like Anderson's where they're knee height and could kill a man.
Vids of the lad look exceedingly underwhelming. He doesn't have the understanding or technique you would hope for in such a highly valued player, where at least you can look at them and get why they're being sought after for so much money.
His technical level is rather concerning, actually, as time on the ball will be reduced to about a quarter of what he's used to in Portugal in the PL.
Maybe he'll be a rapid developer or has a great aptitude hidden under his athleticism, but as of now, admittedly not having watched a game of his, I'd rather we took that money and shopped elsewhere (Koke, Kante, Gundagon and so on).
Would love him to come here and be a revelation, but he doesn't look a player that would surprise me if he wasn't.
His technical level is rather concerning, actually, as time on the ball will be reduced to about a quarter of what he's used to in Portugal in the PL.
Maybe he'll be a rapid developer or has a great aptitude hidden under his athleticism, but as of now, admittedly not having watched a game of his, I'd rather we took that money and shopped elsewhere (Koke, Kante, Gundagon and so on).
Would love him to come here and be a revelation, but he doesn't look a player that would surprise me if he wasn't.
He's trying to hit hard passes into teammates feet against a team playing 10 behind the ball. I think you can see that he'll likely give the ball away too much at 18 to please Van Gaal, but the next manager will surely want a more up-tempo style (not sure how we even could slow down our tempo, really) and a fast, strong player who thinks positively with his passing is a good fit.
When I look at our personnel, I don't see us building a team like PSG who uses the ball conservatively but with impressive precision. A midfield of X player and Herrera pressing in front of Schneiderlin isn't going to be brilliant on the ball, but it could have mobility and tenacity and be quite good covering large spaces, closing down the ball.
As far as I'm concerned, these are the likeliest starters and clear holes on the team going forward over the next 3-5 years:
Martial-Rashford-RW
-----CM-----Herrera-
-------Schneiderlin---
Shaw----------------RB
-------CB--Smalling---
---------De Gea----------
With Blind and Fosu-Mensah getting a lot of the other minutes at the 5-6 most defensive spots.
Obviously that is fungible. Memphis could live up to his potential and Rashford could turn into a pumpkin or whatever. Darmian could hit his Italy form. But if you agree that a new manager will look at those 7 starters and look to build around them, then starting with Smalling and Schneiderlin's lack of technical ability but world class mobility and tackling at their positions and it already seems like our personnel are best off not trying to slowly dissect teams with our passing. I see youth at forward who want space to run in behind and a pretty good box to box CM in Herrera. Shaw (assuming he's back to 100%) and De Gea can play in any style.
So, add a productive right winger and a CM who can dominate his space and I'd actually be sort of excited about seeing us play a bit more open and aggressively pressing. Sanches has the potential to be that player, right?
I'm not saying this is the team I'd build or the player I'd sign. But a young, powerful and mobile CM, even if he isn't Essien yet (and remember Essien at his age was back 4 depth for Bastia), would fit the other young starters on our team well if we got away from Van Gaal ball, I think.
I don't question your judgement but the boy is eighteen.
I mean more in terms of inconsistency and sometimes even misplacing easy passes, not the type of passing. But yeah, reminds me of Ando, now that you said it.
I question his judgement. He's full of shite.
There is clearly a rawness to this lad's game, but he's clearly direct, dynamic, physical and positive. All things our midfield needs.
Looking clever and graceful on the ball is overrated. Pretty five yard passes have got us nowhere all season long. I'll happily allow for the odd loose pass if his presence in the side is to our benefit.
Looking clever and graceful on the ball is overrated. Pretty five yard passes have got us nowhere all season long. I'll happily allow for the odd loose pass if his presence in the side is to our benefit.
fair enough some of his passing wasn't superb or of a Xavi or Kroos standard but there were some positives that I recognised
- pretty clear that physically he is very accomplished and very quick
- looks to quickly move the ball forward and is very positive
- Confidence to try the hard things
- skilful in possession, beat players well a couple of time
- good passing technique, good pace on the passes and was miscontrolled a few times in a Rooney-like fashion
- great shot
- disciplined enough to get back to cover and was able to get forward too
not bad at all for an 18 year old
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That's exactly my point, he's eighteen and he needs to learn a lot, even most of the basic things of the game. And during this time he hasn't shown any kind of improvement in a technical or tactical sense, reading the game better or playing with more sense, or more precision at least. Nothing. We don't need to pay a fortune to carry all his flaws and the lottery his game is, with the risk of he doesn't progress like he needs to do. I don't close the door to the transfer, all I say it's soon for that, even if we leave the numbers aside. Some more time will give us a better perspective.
I have a much more important question. If we do sign him (Huge IF tbh), will he go straight into the first team week in week out or is he a signing for the future ? If it's the first, then don't we already have players who play his role ? If it's the second, I would much rather we spend these kinds of money on someone like Youri Tielemans. Tielemans has got ridiculous talent for his age and has played more games by the age of 18 than the likes of Messi and Rooney.
He's already shown more than Tielemans. He's a mainstay in a much better team and is performing at a much higher level. If we sign Sanches, he will go string into the team.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree. People here have highlighted numerous flaws in Sanches's game even if he's only 18. Whether all of those are true or not, I don't know since I have only Youtube videos to go by as evidence. But Tielemans has been playing professionally for about 2 years now and he's still only 18. Made one of the youngest debuts in Champions League History and is a fantastic natural talent. He has unbelievable technique for an 18 year old, long range, short range passing, he's got it all. He's not particularly quick, but has great acceleration, very skillfull, can play in the Carrick role or can just as easily transition to a box to box role. He's already played over 100 games for the first team and is already touted as a future captain of Belgium. Obviously, he's not going to have a stellar campaign all the time, but even this season, he's been very impressive. There is no doubt at some point, even he will go for silly money, so it might as well be to us. Was linked to United a few days back (Although source is unreliable), and is regularly scouted by Klopp, Poch, Simeone all of whom are renowned at identifying talents.
I have nothing against Sanches, like I said, still can't make much of him, Tielemans seems like more of a sure thing.
Edit: Oh, and the weaker league doesn't really mean much. Kompany played for Anderlecht too before switching to City and we all know how he is. More recently, Mitrovic.
The Martial thing isn't true.
Spurs had tried to sign that Summer. Sky reported it too.
It wasn't that Martial wasn't a great talent (linked to Barca ,it's there in the transfer thread from last summer). It was that he wasn't for sale. Well until we came in with an amount that Monaco simply couldn't refuse,and no else could refuse. Jardim,the Monaco coach said as much.
Boy am I glad we paid that amount!
I'm not going to argue with you. If you've e bothered watching Tielemans, you will know he's been out of the Anderlecht side for a huge part of the season. A player looking more graceful on the ball doesn't mean he's a better player. Sanches is stronger, fitter, IMO a better one on one dribbler and far better at protecting the ball under pressure. Three important midfield characteristics. Our scouts(people a lot better at judging talent than you) have watched Tielemans loads of times this season and have come to the conclusion that Sanches is the right player to go for.
If you can't deal with it, then I suggest you leave this thread.
Deciding that 50m (or whatever it was we bought him for) was worth paying for Martial was a big decision to make and one that we got right. Had that choice been left to some of us on here we'd have missed out on Martial.
I have to disagree with you here. Tielemans is a superior talent. You're probably basing your judgement on this season alone without considering that he is still 18 and has had over a 100 appearances as a first team player with a good number in the CL and the EL. Tielemans is as expected, suffering from being over played and he needs to move to a more competitive league to further his career. Regardless of what league he plays in, any 16 year old that makes a debut alongside grown men and also playing in Europe while putting in some really spectacular performances is remarkable. Tielemans has got a lot in his locker; a very good passing ability, awesome technique, can dictate tempo and is no slouch either. If Tielemans emerged in this current football financial climate, reported fees would be more than Sanches'.
That would be well and good if he wasn't astronomically priced. Don't you expect more in these vids than what's shown for a supposed 60m euro player? Even if it was raw but exceptional: dribbling, passing, shooting, positioning, intelligence or a solid above 6 or 7 in all facets, it would make sense. But athleticism, unless it's prime-Essien level, isn't something to get excited about, is it?
Also, the vid you've quoted is against Acadamia - I should assume that's about the same level of quality as a mid-table Championship side? (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong) For the prices being bandied about, he should look like a god out there against such calibre of opponent, not misplacing or over-hitting passes with such frequency.
I understand your post, and don't disagree with some optimism, but, the price automatically elevates this kid into comparisons of what you should expect to get in terms of ready-made talent (big names) or immensely talented youngster.
The technical ability across the board concerns me more than anything else because it's the one thing I'd expect to see in a precocious youngster.
He's still played close to 30+games this season which still isn't bad and has been moved from a No 6 to more of a No 8, which has improved his assists/goals tally.
Like I said, I don't know much about Sanches and am not going to dispute whatever you said (but you need to watch your tone) but whatever you highlighted seem to be attributed to his physical development, whereas I am talking about technical quality. If Sanches is indeed signed and he turns out great for the club, it's fantastic, but to say Tielemans is not of the same ilk just because Sanches is the flavour of the month(s) is a bit silly.
So where does passing, technique and tactical nous rank amongst important midfield attribute for a midfielder that dictates play. I don't know how you have come up with him being weaker and less fitter either. Tielemans may be diminutive but he a solid unit. You don't have that many games under you and not be fit. I have watched Anderlecht this season and previous ones AND the main reason he hasn't been as involved is because his form slightly dropped and not because he's a bad player. The best players in the world lose form from time to time, how much more from an 18 year old with a ton of caps. What do you honestly expect. The main reason Tielemans hasn't moved isn't because of lack of interest but like Bazoer, his parents and representatives and coaches advised against moving at 17 which isn't unreasonable. And even when his club considered it, they asked for crazy prices when his contact was almost up, which is why they tied him to a massive 5 year contract when Athletico Madrid refused to pay up. You only need to compare youtube videos to compare the obvious talents.
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Excellent post, 100 % agreed about Tielemans.
According to the press we're scouting him and his teammate Dendoncker, so maybe there's a chance for this to happen.
Where did I say Tielemans is a bad player? I said I haven't seen anything that makes me think Tielemans is a superior talent. Sanches is dominating games for a more superior team, in a more superior league and in a more superior competition (CL). Not only that, he played a major role the revival of his teams fortunes.
I also said we have watched both players countless times this season but seem to be pushing ahead with Sanches even though, Tielemns will undoubtedly be cheaper.
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Buying young players is a lottery, one way or another.
I have watched Sanches several games, against Zenit and Bayern he was the whole time on my radar (I knew we where interested) and your criticism of his flaws is a little bit unfair. Against Zenit he started slowly, probably a little bit unfamiliar with the tempo but after 180 minutes he was on top of the whole Zenit midfield including Axel Witsel. When Benfica played against Bayern he also struggled with the tempo. Vidal and Co was all over him but in the end he managed to find his role on the pitch. It wasn't his best games (compared to how he played against Zenit) but several times he went toe to toe against Vidal without looking out of place. Thats impressive.
Timing is everything and I agree with you that waiting another year would be the better solution but maybe we come to the same conclusion as we did with Martial. Its a gamble but maybe our scouts think he's is worth it.
I'm not saying buy him - I was just giving an assessment of what I saw in that one game
Some seemed to be labelling him unfairly based on some misplaced passes
I haven't seen enough of him but I think that video was positive in terms of providing a snapshot of him as a player
Rashford was pretty good against Everton at the weekend but wasted some opportunities... it would be foolish to judge him based on that either
I think if the kid has it, and it's a big if obviously, then why not
As I said earlier, most of the media said he wasn't what we needed. Clubs obviously knew about him but they obviously didn't think he was good enough to warrant a 36m move. For me, he clearly has the talent to warrant a move of that magnitude. If other clubs didn't think so, then surely they didn't know him well.
Sanches also I'm going to reserve my judgement till he plays at least 15 games for us.
Not to disrespect van Gaal or anything, but even he didn't imagine Martial to have such an impact. He has mentioned it numerous times that Martial was a signing for the future but his performances were so impressive and consistent that he kept playing him. I guess it's not just about that quality for which they should pay these insane transfer fees, but the attitude that comes with these talents. Everyone knew how talented Shaw but even he admitted that he struggled at first.
No you haven't said but your comment seem to imply it. Apologies if it isn't the case. And honestly speaking, having watched both players a good number of times Sanches doesn't dominate games the Tielemans does when either are on form. And besides, I don't know where people have come up with Sanches bossing games cos he doesn't. He simply plays well but its not even all the time. Not taking away anything from Sanches but Benfica aren't a small team or rubbish either. It's packed with talents and they could still be in the mix for the title without him in all honesty.
I agree that we need an energetic midfielder like Sanches but it's not paramount while we have a player like TFM. Tielemans on the other hand is special. He has a bit of Veratti and Schweisnstegier about him. But hey, with Ed in charge we could get the lot.
He is not good enough as an 18 year old to get straight into our side. Yes you could sign him as a prospect and develop him, but that is a hell of a fee for an unfinished article. Which also means we have to spend a fortune on a CM that we can actually use straight away. Also it is a lot of money for someone who is good but not outstanding in the Portugese league hoping that he can hack in the the much faster, physically demanding PL. We spent a lot on Martial, but I think he is in a position where his pace can get him away from the defenders etc. Sanches is going to be right in the midfield, where he might find he is crowded out or will just get a good kicking.
I also think his supposed lack of tactical awareness and positional sense is overstated. benfica have trusted him enough to employ him as their deepest midfielder in a lot of matches over the last two months.
I have seen almost every Benfica game since mid January and my opinion is that he's a very good dribbler and extremely good at keeping the ball in tight situations under pressure. His main problem is he a lot of times he feels the need to play at a very quick tempo too of often and plays a lot of risky passes. IMO, that kind be ironed out with time as he learns he doesn't have to drive his team foward all the time.
But what he is good at is essential for us in midfield IMO and I think that's why the club will take the risk.
I have seen almost every Benfica game since mid January and my opinion is that he's a very good dribbler and extremely good at keeping the ball in tight situations under pressure. His main problem is he a lot of times he feels the need to play at a very quick tempo too of often and plays a lot of risky passes. IMO, that kind be ironed out with time as he learns he doesn't have to drive his team foward all the time.
But what he is good at is essential for us in midfield IMO and I think that's why the club will take the risk.
I don't want to give the impression I don't rate Tielemans. I do. I would love us to sign him. He's even a United fan. It's just that unlike some here, I also rate Sanches and I can see why the club feels Sanches is more of a priority at the moment.
That goal though.
I don't think people even know what those terms mean but they sure do love throwing them around.
He certainly looked like he knew what he was doing vs Bayern (Only two games I've seen tbf)
Kovacic/Dembele/Verratti good or just good?
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