Religion, what's the point?

MoneyMay said:
No because I left with dignity. A person who reverts to insults to either make or point, or he simple does it out of frustration, is humiliation (not to forget that you were a straw man). But please, tell us all more about Islam, as your love for the religion grows daily. :lol:
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No, you left because you had nothing more to say. Anyway, fifth time I ask you to show me where I was wrong and you can't.


Danny1982 said:
:lol: The word "Fitrah" has more than one meaning in Arabic.. You probably missed the more obvious meaning at times like this (with Ramadan beginning this week)..
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I know what I said. The word you are looking for is "Iftar" or "Fitr" which refers to breaking the fast (Aid Al Fitr) while I am talking about "Fitrah" which is an entirely different thing. Now will you stop being sarcastic ?

Anyway, your question sounds so random and pointless to me (not because I want to say so, but because I highly doubt that it has anything to do with proving/disproving Islam as a religion). Can you tell me where you're going with this question exactly?
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Alright, suppose Islam is right and we are all born with this Fitrah. I am going to be nice and pretend it does not even mean to have a predisposition to believe in Allah, but a predisposition to believe in the tawhid (monotheism). Then tell me why is it that historically monotheistic religions appeared much later than polytheistic religions ? If people had a natural tendency to believe in one God from the day they were born, surely monotheistic religions would have appeared much sooner and before polytheistic religions.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Yep. It's unfortunate if the notion offends a few billion people but frankly, tough luck, religion is a load of bullshit and those people need to get used to hearing that as the species is moving forward rapidly.

What's the point in being polite when telling somebody that their entire way of life is a lie?
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The real problem to be honest is not if it turns out that we've been living a life based on a lie, because our life will be over either way.. The real problem (for some) is if it turns out that our life is not really based on a lie.. Have you considered that possibility?
 
Hell is just some sort of cheap psychological blackmail trick really, "believe in God or burn in hell!", yeah ok, whatever.

Hoping to gain followers by trying to scare the masses, yeah, very tolerant that is.
 
Werewolf said:
No, you left because you had nothing more to say. Anyway, fifth time I ask you to show me where I was wrong and you can't.



I know what I said. The word you are looking for is "Iftar" or "Fitr" which refers to breaking the fast (Aid Al Fitr) while I am talking about "Fitrah" which is an entirely different thing. Now will you stop being sarcastic ?



Alright, suppose Islam is right and we are all born with this Fitrah. I am going to be nice and pretend it does not even mean to have a predisposition to believe in Allah, but a predisposition to believe in the tawhid (monotheism). Then tell me why is it that historically monotheistic religions appeared much later than polytheistic religions ? If people had a natural tendency to believe in one God from the day they were born, surely monotheistic religions would have appeared much sooner and before polytheistic religions.
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No "Fitrah" means something else. Fitrah means the money/compensation people pay if they don't fast during Ramadan in some cases, according to some sects in Islam.. Look it up.

First of all, the "Fitrah" you're talking about is not one of the important things that Islam depend on.. I'm only saying this because I want you to differentiate between the crucial things in Islam (the things that pretty much all Muslims agree about), and the things that are not crucial, which usually lead to different sects disagreeing or having different opinions about..

Second, let me ask you a question.. Do you know that the Quran says that Abraham was a Muslim (and Mohammad wasn't even born)? How do you explain that?
 
Danny1982 said:
The real problem to be honest is not if it turns out that we've been living a life based on a lie, because our life will be over either way.. The real problem (for some) is if it turns out that our life is not really based on a lie.. Have you considered that possibility?
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We've all considered that possibility, but given how many religions there and how low the chances of picking the correct one (lol) are the chances are, the vast majority of the human race is in hell. Have you considered the possibility that you've picked the wrong religion?
 
Having to coerce people into following you isn't ideal really. Having to do all this stuff for eternal reward and to avoid eternal damnation just doesn't sound right to me.
 
Moonwalker said:
No sorry I decline the request for a way of arguing which you think is more suitable. It's some conceit to presume that your suggestion wasn't considered and then discarded, rather than not thought of at all.

You can't ask of me to show respect for something I don't respect. And if you do, then you're saying that you value congeniality over honesty.

No sir, ridicule is the least I can do for how offended I am by these 'innocuous' beliefs.
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Do you agree if somebody doesn't show respect for homosexuals, or homosexuality?
 
The Greeks had the right idea: no actual established religion but lots of gods and goddesses who did fun things and interfered in the ways of the world instead of remaining mysterious and unknowable.
 
Danny1982 said:
Isn't this the idea behind any law we have?
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No, that's not the idea behind any law we have. The idea behind laws is create a society within which masses can coexist (ideally justly, but that's not always the case), there is no reward given to people for simply following laws, and in most cases there is also little or no punishment given to people when they break laws. Indecent exposure is illegal, yet I can't remember the last time I was arrested for pissing on someones wall. And religions certainly don't have a monopoly on laws either, secular societies have realized how backward books from thousands of years ago are and quite rightly, tend to ignore them. Not that it stops religious loons from attempting to force their beliefs on others.
 
We can also throw out laws that don't work or are no longer applicable. Can you do that with the stupid parts of any holy book?
 
Danny1982 said:
Why do you care about that? You're 100% sure that there is no such thing as hell.
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Why do you care about Atheists ridiculing you and insulting your religion and your gods and prophets then? I'm sure you're really confident in your faith and that all of us will pay by being roasted in eternal fires as punishment.

I care because it's hate speech in a sense. I get annoyed when someone calls me a son of bitch. I know i'm not (unless mom undergoes transformations I don't know about during full moon) and it definitely doesn't keep me up at night but it's annoying nonetheless. So I reserve the right to ridicule the guy who calls me names. It's minor weapon I admit but it's satisfying.
 
Red-Indian said:
Why do you care about Atheists ridiculing you and insulting your religion and your gods and prophets then? I'm sure you're really confident in your faith and that all of us will pay by being roasted in eternal fires as punishment.

I care because it's hate speech in a sense. I get annoyed when someone calls me a son of bitch. I know i'm not (unless mom undergoes transformations I don't know about during full moon) and it definitely doesn't keep me up at night but it's annoying nonetheless. So I reserve the right to ridicule the guy who calls me names. It's minor weapon I admit but it's satisfying.
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Where did I care? :confused:
 
Danny1982 said:
No "Fitrah" means something else. Fitrah means the money/compensation people pay if they don't fast during Ramadan in some cases, according to some sects in Islam.. Look it up.
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Wrong.
Here is what "Fitrah" means :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitra

What you are refering to is "Fidya":
http://www.theonlyquran.com/hadith/Malik-Muwatta/?volume=18&chapter=19

First of all, the "Fitrah" you're talking about is not one of the important things that Islam depend on.. I'm only saying this because I want you to differentiate between the crucial things in Islam (the things that pretty much all Muslims agree about), and the things that are not crucial, which usually lead to different sects disagreeing or having different opinions about..
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Are you kidding me ? You don't juste decide what is crucial or not because it exposes your religion's errors. Anyway, Fitrah is mentioned in the Quran but also in a hadith (Sahih Al Bukhari, the strongest source after the Quran)


Allah's Apostle said, "No child is born except on the fitra and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?"
- Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 441
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Second, let me ask you a question.. Do you know that the Quran says that Abraham was a Muslim (and Mohammad wasn't even born)? How do you explain that?
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Evidence points out that ancient civilizations were polytheistic and that polytheism came way before monotheism. Your religion says that everyone is born with a tendency to believe in one God. Your religion can claim whatever it wants, that dinosaurs were Muslim for instance, it does not matter. We are trying to assess its claims here, not play by its rules.
 
Grinner said:
Having to coerce people into following you isn't ideal really. Having to do all this stuff for eternal reward and to avoid eternal damnation just doesn't sound right to me.
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It is inline with the idea that this world is phase 2(?) of our existence. If it encourages me to work harder to be a better person I think it's a good thing. And to consider the possibility that there is a different type of existence after this world is certainly more fun than just lights out.

'Doing all this stuff' is merely preparing for the next journey. Jesus [pbuh] said... this world is a bridge, cross it - don't build on it.
 
Danny1982 said:
If the idea of punishment/reward is such a bad idea, then we shouldn't be using it in our lives?
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I'm saying that God should be great enough that he doesn't need to threaten or reward you to do what he says. Instead he is jealous, petty, vengeful and sadistic.
 
Danny1982 said:
Where did I care? :confused:
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I apologise if you haven't personally said you care. But there's been heaps of posts here asking people to respect religious beliefs and begging atheists not to ridicule religions held dear by millions. I responded saying I'd consider doing that if they stopped hate preaching. It's really difficult to refrain from making fun of ridiculous fairy tales like hinduism, islam and christianity but if the other side is also respectful, I'd be willing to try.

But they won't give up their weapons of preaching hate and intolerance so we can't possibly lay down our meager weapons of ridicule. That's all there is to it.
 
Danny1982 said:
I'm not talking about the laws themselves. I'm talking about the claim that the idea of punishment/reward is a bad idea. All laws on Earth depend on that idea.
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Because it's the only way to get people to do anything. You're arguing for the other side with this line of reasoning.
 
Danny1982 said:
The real problem to be honest is not if it turns out that we've been living a life based on a lie, because our life will be over either way.. The real problem (for some) is if it turns out that our life is not really based on a lie.. Have you considered that possibility?
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Yeah I've considered the possibility. The chances of it being accurate are approaching zero.
 
Grinner said:
I'm saying that God should be great enough that he doesn't need to threaten or reward you to do what he says. Instead he is jealous, petty, vengeful and sadistic.
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God doesn't need you to be in hell. Justice requires that everybody gets what he deserves. It's unfair that everybody ends up in heaven, regardless what they did.
 
Grinner said:
I'm saying that God should be great enough that he doesn't need to threaten or reward you to do what he says. Instead he is jealous, petty, vengeful and sadistic.
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Yep not only does he want his subjects to pray to him, he's also very specific on the methods they should be using while doing it, how many times they should do it, the clothes they should be wearing, the sex they should be having and so on. If he existed, you could almost imagine the old cnut sat up there next to a clerk with a huge register going "look at that asshole...he only prayed four times to me today. Put down 3 extra days of snakes up his ass for him. Who's next?"
 
Grinner said:
Because it's the only way to get people to do anything. You're arguing for the other side with this line of reasoning.
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I'm not.. I agree with the idea of punishment/reward as a way to urge people to do things, and achieve justice. You thought it was a bad idea that religions do that.
 
Danny1982 said:
God doesn't need you to be in hell. Justice requires that everybody gets what he deserves. It's unfair that everybody ends up in heaven, regardless what they did.
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Do you think it's fair that people who have been brainwashed to believe in Chatholicism and to reject Allah will also suffer for all of eternity, for that reason alone? Do you think it would be fair if when you die and go face judgement god said "sorry pal, Muhammad lied to you, you should have accepted the divinity of Jesus, you're now going to burn in hell for eternity"?
 
Red-Indian said:
Yep not only does he want his subjects to pray to him, he's also very specific on the methods they should be using while doing it, how many times they should do it, the clothes they should be wearing, the sex they should be having and so on. If he existed, you could almost imagine the old cnut sat up there next to a clerk with a huge register going "look at that asshole...he only prayed four times to me today. Put down 3 extra days of snakes up his ass for him. Who's next?"
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God actually forgives people for most of their wrongdoings towards "him".. The important thing for God is how you're going to behave with other people, not with him..

Let me ask you a question: If you were praying, and you saw somebody about to die, but you can save him, what you think God wants you to do in this case? Break your prayer and help the guy, or finish praying and let him die..

The picture you're having about religion is completely wrong.
 
In fact, I would go so far as to say that, if the Abrahamic religions are correct, if you are living a reasonable life and not devoting your life to those who suffer, you're also going to suffer in hell with us nonbelievers.
 
Danny1982 said:
God actually forgives people for most of their wrongdoings towards "him".. The important thing for God is how you're going to behave with other people, not with him..

Let me ask you a question: If you were praying, and you saw somebody about to die, but you can save him, what you think God wants you to do in this case? Break your prayer and help the guy, or finish praying and let him die..

The picture you're having about religion is completely wrong.
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Then why make all those silly specifications like number of times his subjects need to pray, when they should fast, what they should and should not eat if he's not particularly bothered about whether they do it anyway. If your interpretation of the holy books is right, the entire koran/bible/gita could've been written in one paragraph.

"Listen guys - do the best you can down here. I'll judge how you've done once you cork it."

One line actually. Instead he twatters on for hundreds of pages explaining how incredible he is and how he's going to feck your case up if you disobey him and how you shouldn't be pulling on your sausage when you have some spare time.

It's almost as if all these books were wholly made up by some loony stone age maniacs zonked out out on magic mushrooms.
 
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