Religion, what's the point?

Duafc said:
I was not referencing it as a definitive right contained within the ECHR or any convention, I was merely pointing out my opinion that there are ways to debate and offer your opinions that don't require ridicule, if anything it detracts from intelligent discourse. To be hostile and critical of another's choices on something without a conclusive answer is narrow minded and hugely egotistical.

As if Silva himself knows conclusively more than billions of people across millennia because he reads popular science and can therefore label them idiotic.

As you say there is no right to provide this protection, my point is for someone as rights/equality conscious as Silva, i would have expected more decorum within this debate.
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No sorry I decline the request for a way of arguing which you think is more suitable. It's some conceit to presume that your suggestion wasn't considered and then discarded, rather than not thought of at all.

You can't ask of me to show respect for something I don't respect. And if you do, then you're saying that you value congeniality over honesty.

No sir, ridicule is the least I can do for how offended I am by these 'innocuous' beliefs.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
I think children should be raised not be gullible, to be able to recognise when something is amiss and not to believe everything they hear. They should perhaps be taught the facts about religion, about how religion first came about and how it became as powerful as it is today; there's no harm in children learning that which we know as being fact. They should never be made to go to any church; sending children to church is an entirely immoral and disgraceful act on behalf of any parent; no child should be exposed to potential indoctrination into any faith. If God truly exists then why does he require children to brainwashed?
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I certainly wouldn't be sending my children to church... I think people think they have to, or should... Whether to save their immortal souls or just to make sure they grow up with a good set of values... I'm not really sure, it's definitely a failing thay people think they can't raise children to be good people without the help of the church.

As for the brainwashing, I don't really think i'd use that word... People definitely carry on their parents faith unquestioningly at times which is 100% a bad thing, but that extends past religion and isn't specific to religion, i'm a united fan because my dad is and I haven't questioned that :lol:
 
I should probably correct myself though. I said they have the right to hold their beliefs. Actually, they have the right to hold their beliefs, express them and practice them as well. And those rights I'll not only respect, but defend them in any way I can, should they be called into question.

But once again, I don't recognize anyone's right to hold, express and try to use a belief to influence legislation thereby affecting me and everyone else directly, and promise them I'll never have anything but pleasant things to say about it.
 
Duafc said:
That's far too simplistic. It's the ultimate question of God, soul and the afterlife; it is all grey area. You believe in the scientific proofs that are totally incongruent with religious proofs (bible etc.) others do not, or amalgamate the two, or just don't know.

Everyone has an opinion, based on their own learning, upbringing, experiences, conscience and a million other things. You may be certain in your mind, as a great many are certain of the opposite, both of you will claim to know for sure, in reality neither does.
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This is just gibberish. No, it's not all a grey area. And no, it's not a matter of opinion. Either god exists or he does not. Either there is an afterlife or there isn't. I'm not being simplistic, you're making things more difficult than they are.

There is no such thing as religious proof/evidence.
 
Saliph said:
This is just gibberish. No, it's not all a grey area. And no, it's not a matter of opinion. Either god exists or he does not. Either there is an afterlife or there isn't. I'm not being simplistic, you're making things more difficult than they need be.

There is no such thing as religious proof/evidence.
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And you're being simplistic to the point of obtrusion, it's not really something I can be bothered with because I find people who are so unwilling to even contemplate that beyond which they are 'certain' of egotistical and frustrating.

I don't think I believe in God, I certainly don't believe in organised religion. I do respect many who do though and am often impressed by their dedication, even those who aren't as impressive deserve a base level of respect and freedom from the ridicule from those in posession of no more proof, merely a different view.

I certainly wouldn't be combatant or derisive towards them, but that's just me. I read this thread everytime it is updated because it's a topic I think on a lot and watch a lot of debate... i regret becoming involved because it is currently dominated by those who are so unwillingly to allow any inch or quarter without, as I am obliged to consistently point out, conclusive proof.
 
You clearly haven't understood anything that's been written in this thread when you trot out nonsense like "atheists have no more proof". What a waste of time.
 
The religions are quite self-evidently false. They present us with a vague deistic god which humans know can't anything about then they continue to tell us that they know everything about god. Whether or not that unmoved mover does exist, and they've by accident conceived of it may be a grey are, but it really is beyond doubt that all the nuances of religions are just the wishes of the men who wrote them, and it certainly was men because women are effectively an underclass in religion
 
Actually the most annoying part of this thread are the 'agnostic' cavaliers, that act as if the religious are some sort of damsel in distress, desperately in need of their protection and their unique civil parlance. Crying before anyone is hurt, and in someone else's stead.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Her. I'm going to tell her that religion is lies and that she shouldn't believe them. She'll hopefully get the point. There's no church for athiesm where we can send our children away to become systematically indoctrinated by professionals.
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Her sorry. What if she wants to when she becomes an adult? Are you stil going to ridicule or just let her be? especially if it helps her become a better person and not cause harm to herself and/or others.

If there was a church/school for atheism and you sent her to it then she later 'found' God, wouldn't you think she might feel like you are feeling right now? in the sense that she was led to believe the opposite of what she 'feels'.
 
Cider isn't saying he's going to indoctrinate her into atheism, he's just going to teach her to think for herself. And if she asks about such things, he'll tell he what he thinks. That's vastly different to filling her mind with the atheist propaganda you're envisioning.
 
Do I have the right to say black people are inferior and gay's should be put to death without being ridiculed or disrespected for it?

Political or social views based on opinion don't get such protection. Why should religious views? Racism & homophobia have been around longer too I'd posit.

if anything, one of the reasons it's been around for so long is people have been far too respectful to it.
 
A school for atheism...

Incredible for someone with such apparent affinity for fairy tales, how little imagination you have. Everything has to be exactly like it is for you, with a slight variation.
 
Silva said:
Or rather, they've been killed when being disrespectful of it.
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Indeed. For hundreds of years there were laws against blasphemy in this country. They were only abolished in 2008! And in many countries thoughout the world those laws still exist, to horrific effect in some cases.

Yet STILL people think religion gets a hard time from non-believers. For being a bit mean. You couldn't make it up!
 
Saliph said:
You clearly haven't understood anything that's been written in this thread when you trot out nonsense like "atheists have no more proof". What a waste of time.
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:lol: pardon me, I have understood everything i've read. Anything that doesn't pertain to your particular point of view is 'gibberish' 'nonsense' and 'a waste of time'. I knew this would happen and regret entering this shambles of a thread.

I apologise for suggesting that people should show a little more respect in how they label and engage with others who hold a different theological standpoint, or lack thereof. Feel free to carry on the same bitter and obtrusive diatribe for another 80 pages.
 
A church/school for athiesm?

Wouldn't a school for athiesm just be any ordinary school that doesn't teach religious beliefs as fact? There can be no such thing as a church for atheism since churches are places of worship. What could possibly occur at a church for athiesm?

If anyone manages to resent being sent to a school as a child that doesn't teach a particular religion as fact then, yeah, I'd call that person a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime even if it were my own daughter.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
A church/school for athiesm?

Wouldn't a school for athiesm just be any ordinary school that doesn't teach beliefs as fact? There can be no such thing as a church for atheism since churches are places of worship. What could possibly occur at a church for athiesm?

If anyone manages to resent being sent to a school as a child that doesn't teach a particular religion as fact then, yeah, I'd call that person a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime even if it were my own daughter.
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I explained the point of the church/school... led to believe the opposite.

OK but I don't think that's healthy. Peace.
 
Duafc said:
:lol: pardon me, I have understood everything i've read. Anything that doesn't pertain to your particular point of view is 'gibberish' 'nonsense' and 'a waste of time'. I knew this would happen and regret entering this shambles of a thread.

I apologise for suggesting that people should show a little more respect in how they label and engage with others who hold a different theological standpoint, or lack thereof. Feel free to carry on the same bitter and obtrusive diatribe for another 80 pages.
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No. Invalid arguments is gibberish and nonsense, and people who are incapable of seeing that they're invalid (as you clearly are), even after they've had it pointed out to them innumerable times, and keep on repeating them, are a waste of time.

I respect people, when they deserve it. I don't feel obliged at all to respect ideas or beliefs, especially if they're moronic. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why you think that religious beliefs by definition are worthy of respect.
 
Abbsta said:
I explained the point of the church/school... led to believe the opposite.

OK but I don't think that's healthy. Peace.
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You don't need to lead children to believe there is no god if they've never been led to believe that there is a god in the first place. In an athiest society athiesm doesn't need teaching because all children are born athiest.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
You don't need to lead children to believe there is no god if they've never been led to believe that there is a god in the first place. In an athiest society athiesm doesn't need teaching because all children are born athiest.
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I understand. Sorry, what I meant to say is her being discouraged to what she might think is out there (cue x-files theme :lol:).
 
It'd not be difficult to come up with some sort of life lessons classes in school to teach all the good stuff that religion covers like being excellent to each other and helping other people. But religion does gather people together and galvanise them into doing good works for the community.

I think the world would certainly be more cnutish if all religion disappeared tomorrow.
 
Humanities is better than religion classes. All they ever taught us in RE lessons is what the bible says, and how we're all going to hell, as opposed to how to be a good person.
 
Silva said:
Humanities is better than religion classes. All they ever taught us in RE lessons is what the bible says, and how we're all going to hell, as opposed to how to be a good person.
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Maybe, but actually getting people organised and doing good things isn't easy. I like that religion does that for kids since they'd never do it otherwise.
 
Grinner said:
It'd not be difficult to come up with some sort of life lessons classes in school to teach all the good stuff that religion covers like being excellent to each other and helping other people. But religion does gather people together and galvanise them into doing good works for the community.

I think the world would certainly be more cnutish if all religion disappeared tomorrow.
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Thank you for adding value.

We might find it odd that someone may believing in an invisible/visible entity, but as long as the result of such practice is (like you said) less cnutish the better.
 
Grinner said:
It'd not be difficult to come up with some sort of life lessons classes in school to teach all the good stuff that religion covers like being excellent to each other and helping other people. But religion does gather people together and galvanise them into doing good works for the community.

I think the world would certainly be more cnutish if all religion disappeared tomorrow.
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You think the world would be more cnutish if we got rid of all religious division, tribalism, ignorance and stupidity? Well that is certainly a bold statement.

As for religious generosity, I think Sam Harris nailed it when he said "At best, religion gives people bad reasons to be good, when good reasons are actually available."
 
Abbsta said:
I understand. Sorry, what I meant to say is her being discouraged to what she might think is out there (cue x-files theme :lol:).
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I'd personally discourage my daughter from believing in god just as I'll tell her that there are no monsters under her bed before I turn the light off; of course, I cannot prove there are no invisible monsters under the bed either. I'll make sure the school I send her to isn't teaching her religious beliefs and I'll never make her go to a church of any kind.
 
Grinner said:
Maybe, but actually getting people organised and doing good things isn't easy. I like that religion does that for kids since they'd never do it otherwise.
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School does that too, and learning to be a good person for the sake of being a good person is better than being indoctrinated into separatist religions and going to the same ceremonies over and over. Religions don't galvanize kids to better themselves, they make kids believe their teachings at face value.
 
Silva said:
School does that too, and learning to be a good person for the sake of being a good person is better than being indoctrinated into separatist religions and going to the same ceremonies over and over. Religions don't galvanize kids to better themselves, they make kids believe their teachings at face value.
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Well you also get to hear some nice stories and sing songs. It's not all murder and subjugation.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Define cnutish, because I think that a lot of the most cnutish things that occur in the world occur in the name of religion.
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Just people not being as nice to each other. Your average religious person is generally tolerant and nice. Take that away and they are more cnutish. You're a perfect example of this.
 
Grinner said:
Just people not being as nice to each other. Your average religious person is generally tolerant and nice. Take that away and they are more cnutish. You're a perfect example of this.
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If that were the case, why are secular countries generally more tolerant of others than non-secular countries?
 
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