Thanks for this write up. @Withnail woefully misrepresented what you wrote further up.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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It's a bit different with context so you have my apologies. I don't have time to reply properly now anyway but the I found the first post quite vague so my mind filled in the gaps, probably incorrectly. Although I will say that an atheist being open to the possibility of a creator, provided evidence is forthcoming, isn't very controversial at all. The whole point is that if proof exists then it would be accepted. I can say with hand on heart I would accept it if I saw real proof but my faith in the chances that anyone will ever supply that proof is slim to none.
yup I definitely did that.
Fair enough fella and let me apologise for the beginning of my response. I appreciate you responding.
I know, it's infuriating. Anyway, my personal view is that you and I worship the same Creator - you call him Allah, we call him God. We have more similarities than differences, quite honestly.
I mean this as no disrespect, but one of my friends is a very devout old fashion reformed Christian who's beliefs include the part of the Earth being 6000 years old. He is a devout believer in God, does not work, go out or does anything besides resting on Sunday. Goes to Church three times a week, prays before every meal and reads the bible to his children daily. He even asks strangers to not blaspheme in public even though, especially when we were younger, this earned him a shite ton of ridicule and bullying. I find it utterly disrespectful to claim he "couldn't be further away from christianity" simply because he believes the Earth is 6000 years old.
I often hear religious people say that atheists shouldn't be disrespectful of their views, but I find religious people are far more disrespectful to dissenting voices than atheists are. Though that is probably also a result of the fact that most atheists aren't particularly invested in their atheism. They just are.
No disrespect taken.
I disagree with your notion of atheists, from my own experience as an atheist and a religious person. For me atheists are far more invested in trying to "trigger" religious folk and for me it's become a soft of a "religion" of its own. But then I don't see God as being the main factor for something to be called a religion.
As for your friend I wasn't being disrespectful to him or even those others who believe in the 6000 year old earth concept. I wasn't mocking, I wasn't name-calling and I wasn't belittling by using arguments unrelated. My main point here is that I'm Muslim. We don't have the 6000 year earth concept in any sect/group calling themselves Muslim. So why I get that response is beyond me.
However I do believe that the concept is false in Christianity. Based on evidence from biblical sources themselves. That is a general principle. It's not an attack on an individual. The earth isn't flat. Doesn't mean my saying so is an attack on a person someone will know who believes it is but is a brilliant individual.
The attacks on religion are general in the main. Using a Christian sect to argue against a Muslim is insane, imo.
As a Muslim we have just been through Ramadhan. I have friends and family who have fasted. They have refrained from things like weed and alcohol for the month. Celebrating Eid by getting high and drunk. They dont necessarily pray during, before or after. According to scripture (Qur'an and hadith) they haven't observe Ramadhan (or the regard of fasting) rather they have gone hungry. A rough English translation may even put them in the category of the "the greatest losers" (from a religious perspective) as they think they have done good by fasting but haven't observed the principle. They might even be classed as "Ramadhan Muslims" as in they worship the month but we only worship God/Allah and that is 12 months of the year not just 1.
Is that disrespectful? If I was attacking them, sure I can see that. But if asked or making a general point I would always say what scripture says.
I know all sorts of Muslims. Some really nice people. Yet by definition they are not Muslim. I gave NOI example earlier and Elijah Mohammed. He cannot be the last messenger. The testament of faith says so. Ismaili Muslims have a shortened version of prayers and scripture. It's not Muslim because it's defined what these are. I don't see that as disrespectful it's just facts based on the scriptures.
There are other people who follow the main very well but may have one stance that is different or "wrong" this stance won't be a fundamental in belief but wrong nonetheless. Those people won't be classed as non Muslim. Your friend would fit into that category for me. I can disagree with him about the 6000 years bit and maintain that is far removed from Christianity/scripture but it isn't a belief that would impact on him being Christian.
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I wasn't speaking to you as being a Muslim, but as someone simply dismissing his identity as a christian because of something you believe not to be true. Even going as far as saying "couldn't be further from the religion they claim to represent". I find that disrespectful. I know very little of Islam, so I won't argue with any part of that. Isn't the whole concept of faith that you're not entirely certain? His community interpretates the scriptures in a way that to them it could be construed that the Earth is 6000 years old. A ridiculous notion to me (much like the Earth being flat), but not something that disqualifies you from being a Christian. These scriptures were written 2 millennia ago and translated countless of times. Citing them as concrete proof of being or not being qualified to be called a Christian is extremely closeminded to me. And that's mostly my point, why is there such a need within religions to classify true believers and people who might think they are, but are in reality just a sect because they believe X. My friend does this as well mind you and I've had similar success in trying to convey my point to him
I think the reason these religious discussions are never fruitful is the fact that the different religions or religious subgroups all cite scripture as evidence that what they say is true and in their eyes, what is said in scripture is final and in no way open to interpretation, which is something that simply doesn't compute in my atheist mind.
Either way, I do understand your reasoning, but do think the world would be a much better place if all religions and sub religions would get along and respect eachother. Even something that is deemed ridiculous and a sect like Scientology. Why are they not allowed to found a new religion, silly as their ideas may sound? Was there some sort of expiration date for new ones? It's just a ginormous divide in mindset between believers and non believers I suppose.
Fair enough if you know a lot of militant atheists, they definitely exist (some of my mates who grew up in a religious house hold, but broke free / lost their fate are extremely critical of it for instance). I tend to make quips about religion too which might be mean since religious people don't really have anything to fireback to upset me, since I don't mind people not being atheists, at all.
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I wasn't speaking to you as being a Muslim, but as someone simply dismissing his identity as a christian because of something you believe not to be true. Even going as far as saying "couldn't be further from the religion they claim to represent". I find that disrespectful. I know very little of Islam, so I won't argue with any part of that. Isn't the whole concept of faith that you're not entirely certain? His community interpretates the scriptures in a way that to them it could be construed that the Earth is 6000 years old. A ridiculous notion to me (much like the Earth being flat), but not something that disqualifies you from being a Christian. These scriptures were written 2 millennia ago and translated countless of times. Citing them as concrete proof of being or not being qualified to be called a Christian is extremely closeminded to me. And that's mostly my point, why is there such a need within religions to classify true believers and people who might think they are, but are in reality just a sect because they believe X. My friend does this as well mind you and I've had similar success in trying to convey my point to him
I think the reason these religious discussions are never fruitful is the fact that the different religions or religious subgroups all cite scripture as evidence that what they say is true and in their eyes, what is said in scripture is final and in no way open to interpretation, which is something that simply doesn't compute in my atheist mind.
Either way, I do understand your reasoning, but do think the world would be a much better place if all religions and sub religions would get along and respect eachother. Even something that is deemed ridiculous and a sect like Scientology. Why are they not allowed to found a new religion, silly as their ideas may sound? Was there some sort of expiration date for new ones? It's just a ginormous divide in mindset between believers and non believers I suppose.
Fair enough if you know a lot of militant atheists, they definitely exist (some of my mates who grew up in a religious house hold, but broke free / lost their fate are extremely critical of it for instance). I tend to make quips about religion too which might be mean since religious people don't really have anything to fireback to upset me, since I don't mind people not being atheists, at all.
Sorry of it wasn't clear. My long post was meaning to highlight that unless it's a fundamental of the faith then it's not knocking the guys faith or specifically him being a Christian.
If he said he didn't believe in Jesus then it would be a case of asking how is he a Christian. And I don't think that's disrespectful. It's no different to what I've seen on here and other similar discussions when someone has said to someone who claimed to be atheist but followed it up with I don't know if there is or isn't a God. That's an agnostic has been the response. As an atheist you don't believe in a deity. If that makes sense?
Your friends belief in a 6000 year old earth IS far removed from what scripture says. I did sort of explain earlier (not to you) that there is an issue of mistranslation of 6 eras/timespans which became 6 days.
However that isn't a "belief" that negates Christianity. Although my initial comment, that you responded to, was about using the 6k years to argue with a Muslim. That is disrespectful tbh. If you are going to argue with me or attempt a dig or insult at least do me the courtesy of researching what my belief is.
My frustration isn't in quips made to me generally, I'm actually quite a funny guy honest
. As I said to Penna (my post you initially responded to) my frustration is people using something in an argument that isn't in my belief in the first place. It ain't even part of the majority of Christianity. It's a small proportion (see Penna's post). For me faith/religion is never about being uncertain. There maybe elements that I may be uncertain on or don't quite understand but the key issues have to have certainty. Again this is with the Muslim hat on. The very creed or attestation of Islam has conditions attached to it that if you doubt them get certain before you testify
Aah okay, I missubunderstood that then. Thanks for the detailed explanation. Always nice to read different perspectives on these things.Sorry of it wasn't clear. My long post was meaning to highlight that unless it's a fundamental of the faith then it's not knocking the guys faith or specifically him being a Christian.
If he said he didn't believe in Jesus then it would be a case of asking how is he a Christian. And I don't think that's disrespectful. It's no different to what I've seen on here and other similar discussions when someone has said to someone who claimed to be atheist but followed it up with I don't know if there is or isn't a God. That's an agnostic has been the response. As an atheist you don't believe in a deity. If that makes sense?
Your friends belief in a 6000 year old earth IS far removed from what scripture says. I did sort of explain earlier (not to you) that there is an issue of mistranslation of 6 eras/timespans which became 6 days.
However that isn't a "belief" that negates Christianity. Although my initial comment, that you responded to, was about using the 6k years to argue with a Muslim. That is disrespectful tbh. If you are going to argue with me or attempt a dig or insult at least do me the courtesy of researching what my belief is.
My frustration isn't in quips made to me generally, I'm actually quite a funny guy honest
For me faith/religion is never about being uncertain. There maybe elements that I may be uncertain on or don't quite understand but the key issues have to have certainty. Again this is with the Muslim hat on. The very creed or attestation of Islam has conditions attached to it that if you doubt them get certain before you testify
You're grand. The opening didn't bother me at all. I probably deserved a harsher response.
I wasn't speaking to you as being a Muslim, but as someone simply dismissing his identity as a christian because of something you believe not to be true. Even going as far as saying "couldn't be further from the religion they claim to represent". I find that disrespectful. I know very little of Islam, so I won't argue with any part of that. Isn't the whole concept of faith that you're not entirely certain? His community interpretates the scriptures in a way that to them it could be construed that the Earth is 6000 years old. A ridiculous notion to me (much like the Earth being flat), but not something that disqualifies you from being a Christian. These scriptures were written 2 millennia ago and translated countless of times. Citing them as concrete proof of being or not being qualified to be called a Christian is extremely closeminded to me. And that's mostly my point, why is there such a need within religions to classify true believers and people who might think they are, but are in reality just a sect because they believe X. My friend does this as well mind you and I've had similar success in trying to convey my point to him
I think the reason these religious discussions are never fruitful is the fact that the different religions or religious subgroups all cite scripture as evidence that what they say is true and in their eyes, what is said in scripture is final and in no way open to interpretation, which is something that simply doesn't compute in my atheist mind.
Either way, I do understand your reasoning, but do think the world would be a much better place if all religions and sub religions would get along and respect eachother. Even something that is deemed ridiculous and a sect like Scientology. Why are they not allowed to found a new religion, silly as their ideas may sound? Was there some sort of expiration date for new ones? It's just a ginormous divide in mindset between believers and non believers I suppose.
Fair enough if you know a lot of militant atheists, they definitely exist (some of my mates who grew up in a religious house hold, but broke free / lost their fate are extremely critical of it for instance). I tend to make quips about religion too which might be mean since religious people don't really have anything to fireback to upset me, since I don't mind people not being atheists, at all.
Not addressed at me but I do want to comment on this. I have no issues with anyone founding/joining a new or small faith community and would hope others would respect them as well. What I do have issues with is when those communities cause harm. Scientology has caused demonstrable harm to its memembers and to the outside community as well. They should be called out on that the same way the Catholic Church is rightly (and not strongly enough in my opinion) called out for it's bad acts. It is why I am struggling now to decide if I still want to be part of any organized faith community. The American Council of Bishops weaponizing the most sacred of sacraments for political points was the last straw for me with the Catholic Church. I walked and feel better for it. I miss my faith community, but I do not miss the Church. Individual Christians (and humans in general) are generally great people, but get them (and human in general) in a group and they can, and do, become monsters.
Yeah I definitely agree. Scientology was perhaps a poor example since that has a rather strong misconduct vibe.
Condolences, that's horrible.
Sorry for your loss.
Sorry for your loss Roane..
Awful stuff. I’m very sorry about that.
Those kids in religious schools mast have amazing grades.
It's the intentional dumbing down of kids because they know if they are properly educated, they will think independently and they can't have that.
Bob Jones - spooky shit.
Bob Jones University and the private grade school it operates is other worldly.
But amazingly they have one of the finest collections of renaissance art you’d find outside of Europe.
But amazingly they have one of the finest collections of renaissance art you’d find outside of Europe.
Paid for by their uneducated sheeple with the bonus of not paying taxes.
As a person who moved from Serbia to United States I can say that public education in America is absolute joke. I live in a state where public schools are actually rated quite high. Public education doesn't deserve dismantling but it requires serious improvements, however improvements can't happen I am afraid. Teachers in the public schools are severely underfunded, and constant pressure to not leave a child behind has left education where passing grades are obtained the same way IQ tests are scored high in the movie "Idiocracy".
@Oranges038 - I don’t wanna derail the thread you said it in since it’s a Football Forum thread, but I do want to tell you that, in my opinion, you’re right about what you said regarding (what I call) “cafeteria” or “buffet line” religion and it being hypocrisy.
Plenty of people have felt electricity. It's a bastard!
Ain’t it though!
You just have to see / talk to Bob Jones U. folks to get a full understanding of them. I’ve lived here my whole life, so they’ve always been part of the fabric… and even in a place as evangelical as rural South Carolina, they stick out.
Funny thing is, a lot of the BJU alums fall away from their faith completely once they get out into the real world as adults.
I am not religious. Not even remotely,
I just don't see how you can subscribe to a faith, in the hope that you end up in some sort of heavenly afterlife. But, decide that actually, I only want to apply some bits of this text that is 1000s of years old to me and how I live my life. Yet still allow it to forge your views on how others should live their lives in todays world.
I've missed the first 300 pages and I gather this thread is largely about bashing the insanity of extreme views but I've grown to be somewhat envious over the years of those who subscribe to a religion. Not the ultra conservative viewpoints or anything like that but the sense of faith in something greater than yourself. How it manifests into a guiding vision of how to live your life. The more philosophical/spiritual parts, if you will.
I understand completely. There was a fairly lengthy discussion about that recently in the last 5-10 pages of this thread, so I was amused to see it come up in a completely unrelated part of the forum.
Tax the churches…
The comments in the tweet above truly reflect the sad division and ideological encampment in our country. Also highlights the faux intellectualism espoused by many. It's beyond repair.
True. It's like they're on a lifelong acid trip.
Stuff like this is 100% why I have left the church, or more accurately, how the church left me.
That’s interesting. There’s a few life/self development courses I’ve been on which focuses on phenomenology and ontology (the study of experience and the study of being) but in layman terms, the study of ‘being human’ and ‘human being’.
There’s nothing religious about them but it does help delineate where that desire for purpose or universal belonging comes from. If it is something that interests you I can PM you more info.