A huge problem that people from a Christian background often have when trying to get to grips with Islam is the tendency to draw straight but erroneous analogies which end up confusing matters further. For example, while the figure of Christ and the Bible may appear to resemble Muhammad and the Qur’an respectively, their roles and status in Christianity and Islam have been understood by their adherents in significantly different ways throughout history. Likewise the frequent tendency to see the Caliph as a kind of Pope of Islam (though thankfully this is less often seen these days), and also the ridiculous attempts to see doctrinal divisions within Islam in sectarian Christian terms (e.g. Sunnis and Shi’a as Protestants and Catholics or vice versa). It can be very difficult to avoid the temptation to resort to this approach, but it’s important to try to understand things in their own terms as much as possible.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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A huge problem that people from a Christian background often have when trying to get to grips with Islam is the tendency to draw straight but erroneous analogies which end up confusing matters further. For example, while the figure of Christ and the Bible may appear to resemble Muhammad and the Qur’an respectively, their roles and status in Christianity and Islam have been understood by their adherents in significantly different ways throughout history. Likewise the frequent tendency to see the Caliph as a kind of Pope of Islam (though thankfully this is less often seen these days), and also the ridiculous attempts to see doctrinal divisions within Islam in sectarian Christian terms (e.g. Sunnis and Shi’a as Protestants and Catholics or vice versa). It can be very difficult to avoid the temptation to resort to this approach, but it’s important to try to understand things in their own terms as much as possible.
Carolina you seem to be very well informed on the bible and quotes and everything.
Could I please ask what your personal view is? Sorry if you’ve said it already but it’s a long thread!
for the sake of openness my view is that I feel sorry for people who genuinely believe in god. They’ve got it wrong. It’s a big con always has been and always will be (unless some scientific evidence is found to argue otherwise in which case I’ll happily reassess).
I’ve no issue with people believing what they want at all and I don’t want to get into an argument was just curious .
I appreciate it.
I’m an agnostic atheist… But I grew up a believer in a very Christian family in a very Christian part of the United States, attended a Christian university that educated the student body in the Old and New Testaments, and just have a natural curiosity about the subject in general because of its massive impact on history. It’s one of my hobby topics to study. The great irony in all this is that my academic study of the Christian religion is what led to my leaving it behind.
I came at it from a slightly different perspective.
I was both christened and following Sunday School, was Confirmed into the C of E at about 11. And at that time, genuinely believed in pretty much everything I was told.
But it was my love of science and physics in particular that informed me about the scientific discoveries of how our Universe came about that completely changed my mind.
I can't remember a specific point when I started losing faith but it was gradual. Science was definitely the reason though and Darwinism probably played a big part for me.
You say it’s a big con and always has been but you’ll change your mind given some evidence, so really you are just lacking faith more than anything.
And I’m sure the 2.5 billion of us are grateful for your pity.
Still patiently waiting for the evidence.
You can’t 100% categorically say there isn’t a God but in the same sentence say you’ll change your mind. His opinion holds no weight over anything believed by a Christian..
Not 100%, (almost) nothing is 100% but 99% with quite a few decimals behind it. If something is 99.99999999% certain it’s probably fine to categorically state it’s certain, for ease of communication, even if it’s not strictly true in a mathematical sense? Talking would be a bit of a slog otherwise.
The bolded is a great attitude to have. As someone once said:
“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”
Same logic behind flying spaghetti monsters. I don’t think they’re real, in fact I’m pretty sure they’re not real. But if some extraordinary evidence appears for their existence I’ll change my mind.
You’re just hedging your bets now.
“Those who have faith in a little, will have faith in a lot.
“Those who are dishonest in a little, will be dishonest in a lot”..
Nah it’s just a simple understanding of the scientific method, probability and Bayesian reasoning. Conveniently doesn’t seem to apply when people discuss their own belief in mythological beings; be it Odin, lizard people, a Judo-Christian God, leprechauns or unicorns.
Edit: nothing in this life is certain, embrace it!
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I have been popping into church the odd Sunday lately. I wouldn't class myself as religious, definitely not a believer in that sense but I'm getting a lot out of these visits. I was brought up an a small village where everyone knew each other and all kids went to Sunday school, it was cool, all my friends were there and we got to do some great stuff. As I got older I ended up being an acolyte, leading the choir down the aisle each sunday until at 11 - 12 I stopped.
I have had a fecking dreadful year that has taken sh*tloads out of me emotionally and physically and in January, I ended up in hosptal with chestpains. Nothing to worry about in the end, a build up of stress and anxiety, it was a bit of a wakeup call that I have to try and relax a bit and take care of myself instead of rushing around devoting all my time and energy trying to keep everyone else happy.
One evening, I was walking in the village and heard the choir practice in the church. I've always loved the old choral pieces and the sound pulled me through the doors where I took a seat at the back of the church and listened. While I was there I felt the most relaxed and peaceful I've felt since maybe last August. Since then, I've been dropping by for practice and even gone to service the odd sunday. It seems to have been the only place my worries don't seem to follow me.
The people I've met have all been wonderful and have shown me genuine affection which has really helped me. I feel bad when they assume I'm a believer but have been honest with them all, to a tee, they have all just nodded and smiled and stated how it's just nice to see a new face. I have often thought that while the actual practice of being C of E is a bit beyond me, how glad I am that practicing christians still exist. That the church still exists. That something is exactly the same as when I was young and carefree. There is no doubt I feel a level of spirituality or inner peace when inside a church, it's just not a god like spirituality.
So, am I being disrespectful by doing this while not being a believer?
I have had a fecking dreadful year that has taken sh*tloads out of me emotionally and physically and in January, I ended up in hosptal with chestpains. Nothing to worry about in the end, a build up of stress and anxiety, it was a bit of a wakeup call that I have to try and relax a bit and take care of myself instead of rushing around devoting all my time and energy trying to keep everyone else happy.
One evening, I was walking in the village and heard the choir practice in the church. I've always loved the old choral pieces and the sound pulled me through the doors where I took a seat at the back of the church and listened. While I was there I felt the most relaxed and peaceful I've felt since maybe last August. Since then, I've been dropping by for practice and even gone to service the odd sunday. It seems to have been the only place my worries don't seem to follow me.
The people I've met have all been wonderful and have shown me genuine affection which has really helped me. I feel bad when they assume I'm a believer but have been honest with them all, to a tee, they have all just nodded and smiled and stated how it's just nice to see a new face. I have often thought that while the actual practice of being C of E is a bit beyond me, how glad I am that practicing christians still exist. That the church still exists. That something is exactly the same as when I was young and carefree. There is no doubt I feel a level of spirituality or inner peace when inside a church, it's just not a god like spirituality.
So, am I being disrespectful by doing this while not being a believer?
Wouldn’t you?
Given evidence God isn’t real, yet to see it?
That doesn’t answer the question.
Faith and scientific method do not mix. One demands evidence to hold true, the other demands nothing.
There is so much empirical evidence that science has produced in the last century that disputes fundamental parts of many faiths, yet many faithful discard this evidence nonchalantly and without producing any counter-evidence. They don't need to produce actual counter-evidence because it is not needed when it comes to prove something within one's faith.
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No problem at all. You relax, talk to people and listen to some songs. I also like to sit at the back.
I sometimes worry I’m a passenger belittling their faith, definitely not my intention.
I understand how faith works, but the guy was attacking someone for saying “I’ll change my mind if evidence was presented…”
My question is wouldn’t they do the same? And if not, if they willingly choose ignorance in the face of (hypothetical) actual evidence that contradicts their belief, why?
Attacking?
The guy literally started his post with I pity you, then went on to say he unsure.
I was in a way trying to make the point that many religious people do not care for evidence and therefore they won't change their mind. The theory of evolution in conjunction with DNA is a perfect example of evidence that debunks the teachings of many religions. The proof that life excisted for millions and millions of years before man even walked the earth is another.
Science has uncovered so much about us and the universe that directly contradicts something in the teachings every religion on the planet most likely.
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I don't think so at all. I also found pockets of peace and the quieting of my concerns when I used to go to mass regularly. No matter how bad my week had been I had an hour (actually 45 minutes as our pastor liked to move things along) each Sunday where I was guaranteed to be happy. Our church's motto was "All our welcome" and all truly were, regardless of faith or lack thereof.
As for me, while I still consider myself Christian I just can't go back into a church right now, especially a Catholic one. To do so, for me, is a implied approval of the Church and its continued literal and figurative abuses.
Does it though? I guess I can only speak as a Roman Catholic, but these are the Church's views as laid out in the Catechism:
I went to Catholic HS and University and evolution was most definitely taught. The Human Genome Project was delivering its first insights into our DNA at the time I was in college and we marveled in what we were reading (I was a biology major). My undergraduate research was plant evolutionary biology. After college I taught HS biology at a Catholic school and you can bank on it that my lesson plans (approved by my chair and principal) contained discussions of evolution and the HGP.
I am Christian and I am also a scientist. I do not, and have not, ever considered these two on opposition to each other. One is guided by faith, the other by fact.
What kind of evidence would there be?
You don’t have any?
Are you asking for evidence of the non existence of something? How does that work exactly?
I mean I know you're pissed off, and rightly so, for the "pity" post earlier but you know proof of non existence is impossible.
I'm surprised by this, having always noted your posts over the years.
I am also interested in this. I've never been a fan of NOMA in general, especially given that the nature and origin of reality seems to me to fall very much in the domain of science.
If you don't mind expanding on this: is the separation you maintain something like a separation of purpose and meaning from the laws of nature or some such?
My point was we can argue it both ways and only go around in circles until someone gets annoyed and offended so I guess I will leave it at that for now..
Yeah. It's been a bit tense in here of late. I've been keeping the feck away.
A wise decision.
Always nice to sneak up on people once and a while I guess
Anyways, it is something I can't really explain well in words, but I will give it a go.
There have been many times over the years I have doubted my faith, but no time more so than when I was in graduate school and dealt for the first time with people outside my sheltered Catholic community bubble. When I was the only religious person in my lab and was mocked, when I showed up on Ash Wednesday to journal club and the professor in charge told me my face was dirty, when a potential employer (as a post doc) informed me he expected me to work on Sundays as it was a better alternative to wasting time in church, etc. Each time the criticism was framed as "how can we take you seriously as a scientist if you believe in this shit". So why have I always returned to a position of faith?
First let me address the science side. As someone who devoted a decade to bench science and now another decade to enabling scientists I would say a good deal of my effort, energy, and time has been in the service of the pursuit of answers. I know that if I work hard and smart enough at determining a proteins function I will get there. Work further and I will figure out the MOA. Work further and I can find the active domains of the protein itself. And so on. The point is that questions yield answers but also more questions and I know with 100% certainty there is always an answer to find. I guess you could say I have faith the answer exists.
So how does this mesh with belief in what many on here would argue is unanswerable? The answer is simple. It doesn't. Well, at least not in an objective, rational way. That's the thing though, as humans we are at our core irrational beings trying to find relevance and meaning in the world around us. For me I find that meaning in my faith. I find peace there when everything else is falling apart. During the worst times in my life I have had an anchor that keeps me from making destructive choices and in other times a compass that directs me. Others may scoff and say that all these things can be found outside Christianity or faith in general, and they would be right. They can be found everywhere, but for me I found them in my belief in God and I know with the same certainty I mentioned above that for me I have found the right choice.
We are all people of faith, whether that be in faith in science, faith in God, or faith in the flying spaghetti monster. None of us know everything. I know feck all about aeronautical engineering, but I get on a planes having faith that the engineers at Boeing (usually
) know what they are doing. It is why I will never understand those who take glee in mocking people of faith who go about their faith quietly or speak with disdain and use terms like "pity" and "sorrow".Anyways that is my rambling and likely ineffective attempt at putting feelings down on paper (silicon?).
You’ve still yet to answer the question.
Thanks for the answer.Always nice to sneak up on people once and a while I guess
Anyways, it is something I can't really explain well in words, but I will give it a go.
There have been many times over the years I have doubted my faith, but no time more so than when I was in graduate school and dealt for the first time with people outside my sheltered Catholic community bubble. When I was the only religious person in my lab and was mocked, when I showed up on Ash Wednesday to journal club and the professor in charge told me my face was dirty, when a potential employer (as a post doc) informed me he expected me to work on Sundays as it was a better alternative to wasting time in church, etc. Each time the criticism was framed as "how can we take you seriously as a scientist if you believe in this shit". So why have I always returned to a position of faith?
First let me address the science side. As someone who devoted a decade to bench science and now another decade to enabling scientists I would say a good deal of my effort, energy, and time has been in the service of the pursuit of answers. I know that if I work hard and smart enough at determining a proteins function I will get there. Work further and I will figure out the MOA. Work further and I can find the active domains of the protein itself. And so on. The point is that questions yield answers but also more questions and I know with 100% certainty there is always an answer to find. I guess you could say I have faith the answer exists.
So how does this mesh with belief in what many on here would argue is unanswerable? The answer is simple. It doesn't. Well, at least not in an objective, rational way. That's the thing though, as humans we are at our core irrational beings trying to find relevance and meaning in the world around us. For me I find that meaning in my faith. I find peace there when everything else is falling apart. During the worst times in my life I have had an anchor that keeps me from making destructive choices and in other times a compass that directs me. Others may scoff and say that all these things can be found outside Christianity or faith in general, and they would be right. They can be found everywhere, but for me I found them in my belief in God and I know with the same certainty I mentioned above that for me I have found the right choice.
We are all people of faith, whether that be in faith in science, faith in God, or faith in the flying spaghetti monster. None of us know everything. I know feck all about aeronautical engineering, but I get on a planes having faith that the engineers at Boeing (usually
Anyways that is my rambling and likely ineffective attempt at putting feelings down on paper (silicon?).
I think the faith part is interesting. My faith that a plane would fly despite my equally scant knowledge of aeronautics is based on knowing that planes demonstrably do fly and seems to me to me to be a different class of usage of the word faith regarding religion. To me they seem to be very different but perhaps that's why I don't believe in any sort of god - I couldn't even if I wanted to - I'd need a situation more like the plane example to do so. I think I'm incapable of that sort of faith.
That was my point, that we all ascribe to some form of faith and it is up to us to define what that means to each of us. It is why I do not believe it is my duty to convert anyone to my faith, or to pridefully profess it to others. It is why I post so little about it here or discuss it in person outside of family and close friends. I try to be judgement free on other peoples points of faith, unless that faith harms others.
It’s still a holiday compared to the FF.
There might be in future a discovery of some kind of an alien super-species or some lifeform that could maybe reveal themselves as the ones who designed and control this universe (pretty much hypothetical but for the sake of argument) but if anyone thinks that even something of that form would ever correlate to any of the religious figures as of now or any of their fairy tales then that's pretty much the most nonsensical thing one can ever think of. Any of these texts are nothing more than political tools that have always took advantage of the gullible.
Absolutely there could. But we'd have to ask them: who created you? Right?
They could possibly know that, in certain terms unlike we do now about our universe and could have discovered concrete evidence of how their and our universe came into being. We wouldn't have created religion if our species wasn't riddled with uncertainty of our own past, which led to people writing stories of their own liking. That doesn't have to be the case always and hopefully in future won't be the case with us either.
If there is one thing one could say with absolute certainty, it is that there will never be any evidence of any kind that correlates to any of the current or past religious figures. If anyone is waiting for some bearded dude to turn up and start walking on water or something, well good luck.