Because if he wanted to be in any way convincing, in terms of his existence, he wouldn't have done it. Any omnipotent god would be able to see the flaws in that, if it was his plan.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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Because if he wanted to be in any way convincing, in terms of his existence, he wouldn't have done it. Any omnipotent god would be able to see the flaws in that, if it was his plan.
Then why did he need to tell us how to behave then? If we are all the perfect creations made in his perfect image he would never have needed to say anything.
But then again this is the god that quite clearly endorses the following in the bible - slavery, abortion, rape, pedophilia, torture, human sacrifice, animal sacrifices, homophobia, misogyny, infanticide, mass genocide, and a myriad of other utterly reprehensible teachings that befit the ignorant, superstitious, desert nomads that dreamt it up to begin with.
Yes you are right about one thing though - man and god got their morals from one another. You just have it the wrong way around is all.
Okay
Then why did he need to tell us how to behave then? If we are all the perfect creations made in his perfect image he would never have needed to say anything.
But then again this is the god that quite clearly endorses the following in the bible - slavery, abortion, rape, pedophilia, torture, human sacrifice, animal sacrifices, homophobia, misogyny, infanticide, mass genocide, and a myriad of other utterly reprehensible teachings that befit the ignorant, superstitious, desert nomads that dreamt it up to begin with.
Yes you are right about one thing though - man and god got their morals from one another. You just have it the wrong way around is all.
Not to mention that this god “granted” humans “free will” but will punish them for using it in any manner that he doesn’t approve of...and yet regardless of what they “choose”, it doesn’t matter anyway because it was all “his plan” and it’s predecided. You couldn’t make it less coherent if you tried.
To some people maybe the rest of the universe is a waste of space. To others, it may come across as an awesome demonstration of His power. And some maybe find that the night skies inspire them to scientific discoveries or artistic works etc.
Not to mention that this god “granted” humans “free will” but will punish them for using it in any manner that he doesn’t approve of...and yet regardless of what they “choose”, it doesn’t matter anyway because it was all “his plan” and it’s predecided. You couldn’t make it less coherent if you tried.
I would say you couldn't make it up... But evidently someone did.
Good grief! Do you also deny climate change? Just curious...
Then why did he need to tell us how to behave then? If we are all the perfect creations made in his perfect image he would never have needed to say anything.
But then again this is the god that quite clearly endorses the following in the bible - slavery, abortion, rape, pedophilia, torture, human sacrifice, animal sacrifices, homophobia, misogyny, infanticide, mass genocide, and a myriad of other utterly reprehensible teachings that befit the ignorant, superstitious, desert nomads that dreamt it up to begin with.
Yes you are right about one thing though - man and god got their morals from one another. You just have it the wrong way around is all.
Because we have free will. We all need a little bit of help to be kept on the right track.
What does this have to do with climate change. Do you endorse paedophilia? Just curious.
@cesc's_mullet On cue
Yes, hilarious. Do you have children by any chance? If you do, you'll know they are the sweetest, most innocent creatures. Yet they need moral guidance.
Likewise, He is our Father.
I’m an atheist. Largely because it’s religions that endorse and forgive pedophilia, rape, torture, racism, misogyny etc. Religious folks typically deny climate change as well because hey, it’s “god’s plan” and he wanted humans to do with animals and the earth as humans saw fit...as long as they didn’t break his rules...though he has a divine plan...but humans have free will...but are damned if they don’t go by what he wants, their free will be damned.
What do you mean by 'they're damned if they don't go by what He wants'?
Do you also believe in heaven and hell, that whatever we do with the 10 seconds we have on earth will have ever lasting repercussions in some afterlife?
Also, just as an aside, even if it were true that religions 'endorse and forgive pedophilia, rape, torture, racism, misogyny etc.' that wouldn't mean that God doesn't exist. So if you're 'largely' an atheist because of that, I'd suggest examining the evidence for His existence, and not at the failings of the religious.
Sure...
Well, as per the bible or the koran or any other “holy piece of man-made fiction about a mythical bearded misogynist in the sky”, I’m destined to suffer hellfire for the “sin” of not accepting this stupid idea and bowing to this mythical piece of crap. But...this guy supposedly made me and loves me...and gave me free will. Which should mean that I can choose to not believe in him. Yet, regardless of my deeds, I’m damned.
So yeah... good going with your reasoning and logic.
So yeah... good going with your reasoning and logic.
Ten commandments might have been a bad example, as i did only recall "not to kill, steal".. Should have said morals code in general... Problem is that not all people have the same morals, thoughts etc as no person is alike. So some of the base moral principles in religions would be applicable to all humans regardless. But then again this is/should have been part of societies without religion "preaching/enforcing" them.
I think as long as people have "common sense", the world does not need religion. Religion is useful and dangerous for the people without "common sense". And it could be argued that if everyone in the world had "common sense" there would not be that many religious people as it is today.
Common sense: understand the causation principle, trying to see both side of a cause/issue before making a decision/act, making up ones own opinion and not having an opinion based on a external political/religious element.
Should also differentiate betweem the various degrees of being religious:
Difference between a fanatic and a person saying that he is a christian but only goes to church twice a year etc.
Just amazing.
Did your god give us free will? Meaning that he made us have free will. Therefore we had no choice in the matter. See how that doesn't actually make sense when you bother to think about it?
If god knows everything that is going to happen, then there is no such thing as free will.
Your god already knew, and in fact had always known (because he's timeless, right?) that he would never provide any evidence that I would personally find convincing. He knew that this was always going to be the case.
So in effect he created me knowing full well that I'd never believe in him, and therefore knew that he was always going to end up banishing me to hell.
Your god is an utter bastard.
It's like he knows all the answers to the test but still gets it wrong anyway.
@cesc's_mullet On cue
Yes, it's getting painful now.
If your all knowing god already knows what will become and what we'll do then whats the point?
What version of a person will go to heaven? The young, liberal version of myself or the racist, conservative old fella I may become?
First of all, no God is bearded, since He is immaterial. Second, you have the free choice of whether or not to spend eternity with Him - you can choose to do so (Heaven) or not (Hell). If you don't want to be with God, then what's so wrong with Hell anyway?
Knowing that something will come about isn't to cause it. If I know that you will pull your hand away from the hire, that doesn't mean I caused it. If I know that my child will ask to go on the scooter rather than the bicycle, that doesn't mean I caused her to pick the scooter.
Your god endorses pedophilia, and all those other things I listed. It's quite explicitly stated in the bible.
How do you reconcile that?
Ha. I'm not sure it's based on political views.
Quite amazing that this god fella apparently visited earth and spoke to tons of people all the time (though only in one small part in the Middle East) for a few thousand years and consistently exhibited his jealousy, happiness and wrath with great regularity...then stopped appearing as people learned historical record-keeping. Appearances increased suddenly after Photoshop was released though...
Read those passages in context. Distinguish between the Old and New Testament. Think about who these commands were aimed at.
We don't need it full stop, the cons far outweigh the 'pros' and we're still dealing with the damage religion has done to the world. Just imagine how far ahead we'd be if we never wasted so many resources, time and human life because of religion. There's a saying that common sense isn't common, and for me religion plays a big part in that globally.
Oh and yet Jesus says in the New Testament that nothing he says negates even a single word of the Old Testament.
Not to mention that you’re saying that god got it wrong the first time so needed to change things if you say you follow NT only.
Your flippancy, though undoubtedly amusing to some, reflects lack of serious thought about the issue.
I don't believe I ever said so...
We have no choice in the matter.
You can't choose to believe in something. Either you do, or you don't. I can't imagine that your god would be fooled by me trying really hard to believe when I can't reduce myself to do it. It's impossible for me to believe right now.
Therefore that's HIS choice and he is liable for this situation. He knew this would happen. He knows exactly what would convince me of his existence, and still chooses not to provide this evidence to me.
That is entirely on him and I am in no way culpable for my disbelief. And that holds true for every single unbelievabler, or the poor brainwashed sods that were unlucky enough to be born in areas that have different belief systems.
Your god chooses to send people to hell. That's his choice and no one elses.
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On the contrary, it shows that I’ve considered the matter very seriously before choosing a belief set that aligns with reality and science instead of what my ill-informed ancestors blindly accepted. By contrast, your blind adherence to religion shows a complete lack of scientific curiosity.
If you're going to punish her for doing things you already know she'll do then you're a failure for creating a flawed child. It would seem its just some kind of twisted game starring a psychopath called God
I have read this a couple of times to try and understand what you mean but I am sorry, it makes no sense.
The kettle boiling is due to cause any effect.
The cause is because energy is being added to increase the temperature of the water (it is actually electromagnetic energy than causes the water molecules to move around much more quickly).
The effect is for the water temperature to increase.
You can want a cup of tea as much as you like but unless you add energy nothing will happen. The water will remain at a temperature.
You do understand that don't you.
How does he “know” and have a “divine plan” if we have free will? You don’t seem to get the concept of “logical coherence”.
Punish who?
Someone comes in to your room and says ‘why is this light on?’
What do you say? Do you speak in terms of electricity and the movement of electrons through wires, or do you say you wanted to read a book?
That’s not how science works. You’re talking about emergent phenomena. Science can talk about quantum mechanical behaviour of molecules, or about charges passing through neurons, or muscle movements, or the behaviour of an individual, or the social dynamics of a civilisation. There is no contradiction. These are all built on top of each other with collective complex behaviour forming due to the interaction of many simple elements. Science forms good explanations based on observations of reality.
Meanwhile your deductive logic is incorrect. You’re conclusion does not logically follow because it does not abide by the rules of your premise. Therefore either your premise or your conclusion is false. It’s a logical fallacy, an infinite regress that leads only to God, but only because you immunise him to it- an error in logic. You can state (as you did) that “God is the only being powerful enough etc.” but that invalidates your argument because you have inserted a new proposition, one you have not justified but which your argument depends upon. It’s a very common mistake in syllogisms to try to sneak in a new proposition, a mistake which invalidates the argument.
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