Religion, what's the point?

ErranMorad said:
This is another one I read about a week or so back.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/world/middleeast/human-rights-robinson-dubai-princess.html

Apparently she was abducted by Indian authorities near their coast from the vessel she escaped in. They returned her to the UAE instead of providing asylum.
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oneniltothearsenal said:
Why are countries like Thailand and India forcing these people to return against their will?

This feels like the fugitive slave law on a worldwide scale
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oates said:
Has the answer got anything to do with Saudi influence?
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CA_vampire said:
Money? Bribes?
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The UAE on Tuesday extradited Christian James Michel, a British citizen, to India where he is wanted for alleged commercial fraud, bribery and money laundering as part of an investigations into a multi-million dollar helicopter purchase deal, official sources confirmed to Gulf News.

https://gulfnews.com/uae/crime/helicopter-case-briton-to-be-extradited-to-india-1.60458782

quid pro quo!
 
Buster15 said:
For the love of God?
You do realise that this whole thing is about God.
My God wants me to kill, to torture
and to comit unbelievable atrocities in his name because you don't believe in my God....
Sure. Of course he does.

God does not exist. People use his name to legitimise their appalling acts.
Were he to really exist, why would he not put a stop to the disgraceful things done in his name, year after year, decade after decade, century after century.

I despair.
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There is a creator because consciousness can't be denied but I think a lot of truth is kept from us so that intellectually, we're all over the place and so struggle to find common ground based on something we all can say is 100% true. There's not really much in nature that falls short but if you look in a lot of ancient cultures, there's a lot of darkness here. Time has to play out and we have to endure time.
 
Striker10 said:
There is a creator because consciousness can't be denied but I think a lot of truth is kept from us so that intellectually, we're all over the place and so struggle to find common ground based on something we all can say is 100% true. There's not really much in nature that falls short but if you look in a lot of ancient cultures, there's a lot of darkness here. Time has to play out and we have to endure time.
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I am sorry but there is absolutely no evidence of creation but there undeniable evidence of how out Universe was born, how the galaxies stars and planets were formed and how evolution gave life to all the plants and animals.

The truth is most definitely not kept from us. All the evidence is available for anyone who wants to read and understand it. It is called science and I recommend you take a look.
 
Striker10 said:
There is a creator because consciousness can't be denied but I think a lot of truth is kept from us so that intellectually, we're all over the place and so struggle to find common ground based on something we all can say is 100% true. There's not really much in nature that falls short but if you look in a lot of ancient cultures, there's a lot of darkness here. Time has to play out and we have to endure time.
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Utter nonsense.
 
Buster15 said:
I am sorry but there is absolutely no evidence of creation but there undeniable evidence of how out Universe was born, how the galaxies stars and planets were formed and how evolution gave life to all the plants and animals.

The truth is most definitely not kept from us. All the evidence is available for anyone who wants to read and understand it. It is called science and I recommend you take a look.
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I commend to you the Kalam Cosmological Argument for consideration, which states that...
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
 
McUnited said:
I commend to you the Kalam Cosmological Argument for consideration, which states that...
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
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Who created your god then?
 
McUnited said:
I commend to you the Kalam Cosmological Argument for consideration, which states that...
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
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The rest might follow logically from the rest, but that one blatantly does not.
 
McUnited said:
I commend to you the Kalam Cosmological Argument for consideration, which states that...
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
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Two things.
Does everything have a beginning of its existence? Does the universe have a beginning? Certainly you could argue for the big bang being a beginning but that can just as easily be understood as the point at which our understanding of natural laws breaks down and what was before it is incomprehensible.
The rest is just circular reasoning. God= the creator of the universe, the universe exists, therefore it must have been created, therefore God exists.
If you are merely using God as a descriptor for the mechanism of the big bang (which you can't possibly know), then you have proven nothing, you may as well say "God is love" or "God is the universe"
 
McUnited said:
I commend to you the Kalam Cosmological Argument for consideration, which states that...
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
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Yes it is likely that the Universe had a beginning, the event termed the big bang. Nevertheless, it is now believed that this was just another phase of its possible infinite life.
The cause is not understood because of our limited understanding of quantum mechanics.

Again I ask; where is the evidence of God. I mean proper evidence.
 
McUnited said:
I commend to you the Kalam Cosmological Argument for consideration, which states that...
(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
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Wrong.

Firstly, you are making one fundamental theory as the basis for your argument - that being "everything that exists has a beginning and a cause".
Now:
1. Applying this, you state that the Universe has a "cause". What does this even mean? The Universe exists - but that doesn't imply that there's a cause, because this is not only recursive, but has no end, barring one where you end up saying "at this point, the basis for my theory no longer applies".
2. Why is that cause "god" in this case? Just because you don't know any better?

Let's apply your own logic and fundamental theory to god. Assume for a moment that god exists. Then, item 4 should address the cause for god's existence. But you break natural laws for god, saying god has no creation...well, by that logic, somewhere in the chain, the law of "everything that exists has a cause for it's existence" breaks down and you say "well, this particular thing doesn't conform".

QED
 
niMic said:
The rest might follow logically from the rest, but that one blatantly does not.
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Perhaps not at first sight. But if you accept that universe has a cause of its existence then that cause must be outside this universe. Unpack the attributes it must have. It must be powerful, it must be eternal, it must be be capable of making decisions. That gets you to what most consider to be a God.
 
McUnited said:
There are no such things as created Gods. God is by definition eternal. Therefore not created.
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Every single god, all of the many thousands of them, have all been created by the minds of men. And all of them are imaginary.

You may as well say a magic space cheese toastie was the 'first cause.' At least we have actual evidence that cheese toasties exist.
 
rumac said:
Two things.
Does everything have a beginning of its existence? Does the universe have a beginning? Certainly you could argue for the big bang being a beginning but that can just as easily be understood as the point at which our understanding of natural laws breaks down and what was before it is incomprehensible.
The rest is just circular reasoning. God= the creator of the universe, the universe exists, therefore it must have been created, therefore God exists.
If you are merely using God as a descriptor for the mechanism of the big bang (which you can't possibly know), then you have proven nothing, you may as well say "God is love" or "God is the universe"
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The latest scientific discoveries indicate there was an absolute beginning. Look up Borde, Guth and Vilenkin.

Your second objection that it’s circular is incorrect. It isn’t assumed that God is the creator of the universe. That conclusion comes as the logical deduction at the end of the premises.
 
Buster15 said:
Yes it is likely that the Universe had a beginning, the event termed the big bang. Nevertheless, it is now believed that this was just another phase of its possible infinite life.
The cause is not understood because of our limited understanding of quantum mechanics.

Again I ask; where is the evidence of God. I mean proper evidence.
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When you say proper evidence, what evidence would you consider to be proper?
 
It is all a huge scam to allow people in power to do whatever the feck they like and get the 'sheep' to pay for it.
 
The Kalam argument is old and tired, and can never be proven to be correct.

However it would all be cleared up if the god would bother to take some time out if it's busy day to actually announce himself, once and for all.
 
midnightmare said:
Wrong.

Firstly, you are making one fundamental theory as the basis for your argument - that being "everything that exists has a beginning and a cause".
Now:
1. Applying this, you state that the Universe has a "cause". What does this even mean? The Universe exists - but that doesn't imply that there's a cause, because this is not only recursive, but has no end, barring one where you end up saying "at this point, the basis for my theory no longer applies".
2. Why is that cause "god" in this case? Just because you don't know any better?

Let's apply your own logic and fundamental theory to god. Assume for a moment that god exists. Then, item 4 should address the cause for god's existence. But you break natural laws for god, saying god has no creation...well, by that logic, somewhere in the chain, the law of "everything that exists has a cause for it's existence" breaks down and you say "well, this particular thing doesn't conform".

QED
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As mentioned in response to another poster, God is understood to be eternal, hence has no cause.

Why does it have to God? Well just think about what kind of being it would take to create a universe. Immaterial, timeless, immensely powerful etc. and you get to God.
 
marukomu said:
It is all a huge scam to allow people in power to do whatever the feck they like and get the 'sheep' to pay for it.
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Pretty much this. Religion has proven to be an amazing tool for controlling the masses through history.

It's also no coincidence that the most fervently religious people and places, across all religions, are also generally the least educated and most desperate.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Every single god, all of the many thousands of them, have all been created by the minds of men. And all of them are imaginary.

You may as well say a magic space cheese toastie was the 'first cause.' At least we have actual evidence that cheese toasties exist.
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And we have plenty of evidence that cheese toasties are unable to create anything. Nobody prays to cheese toasties. No one is arguing for the existence of a divine cheese toastie.
 
McUnited said:
As mentioned in response to another poster, God is understood to be eternal, hence has no cause.

Why does it have to God? Well just think about what kind of being it would take to create a universe. Immaterial, timeless, immensely powerful etc. and you get to God.
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The problem is you are simply assuming that 'something,' a sentient lifeform, created everything to begin with. There is simply no proof or evidence to suggest that this is what happened.
 
McUnited said:
And we have plenty of evidence that cheese toasties are unable to create anything. Nobody prays to cheese toasties. No one is arguing for the existence of a divine cheese toastie.
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Ah but this is a magic space cheese toastie, you see. It's one that is the cause of the first cause, because everything with a cause was purposefully created.

You may as well pray to a sandwich because you can at least prove they exist.
 
McUnited said:
As mentioned in response to another poster, God is understood to be eternal, hence has no cause.

Why does it have to God? Well just think about what kind of being it would take to create a universe. Immaterial, timeless, immensely powerful etc. and you get to God.
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“Is understood”? Excuse me while I guffaw. Like I said, you’ve made “god exists” a principle and are using it to justify why god exists. That’s illogical - not that logic has ever been religion’s strong suite of course.

How about assuming that the Universe is eternal? As known from science, the Universe emanates from a singularity and expends for billions of years before then contracting and going back to a singularity before the cycle is repeated. Ergo, no mystical “outside the Universe” hocus pocus needed and we’re all happy.

This god is a myth - just like the beast under your bed, in your closet, in your head.
 
God is as real as Santa Claus. Religion is made to control people and hilariously it works pretty well. Religious organizations like the church are basically a legalised mafia, people who are part of it can get away with anything so to answer the question - there is no point in religion.
 
dove said:
God is as real as Santa Claus. Religion is made to control people and hilariously it works pretty well. Religious organizations like the church are basically a legalised mafia, people who are part of it can get away with anything so to answer the question - there is no point in religion.
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Oh. There is a point. Several points:
1. Mind control
2. Untaxed wealth generation
3. Protection of abusers and enabling of abuse
4. Mainstreaming misogyny and racism
5. Excusing vile human rights abuse (including FGM, rape, torture, slavery, discrimination, inquisitions, burning at the stake etc.)
 
midnightmare said:
“Is understood”? Excuse me while I guffaw. Like I said, you’ve made “god exists” a principle and are using it to justify why god exists. That’s illogical - not that logic has ever been religion’s strong suite of course.

How about assuming that the Universe is eternal? As known from science, the Universe emanates from a singularity and expends for billions of years before then contracting and going back to a singularity before the cycle is repeated. Ergo, no mystical “outside the Universe” hocus pocus needed and we’re all happy.

This god is a myth - just like the beast under your bed, in your closet, in your head.
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The old circular reasoning. Like when Christian's say they believe what's in the bible because the bible says it's true.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Ah but this is a magic space cheese toastie, you see. It's one that is the cause of the first cause, because everything with a cause was purposefully created.

You may as well pray to a sandwich because you can at least prove they exist.
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Is this special magic toastie immaterial?
 
cesc's_mullet said:
The old circular reasoning. Like when Christian's say they believe what's in the bible because the bible says it's true.
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Yeah. The gullibility of people is proven by the popularity of religion :lol:

Note: I was hoping my Enter Sandman reference would be noted ;)
 
midnightmare said:
“Is understood”? Excuse me while I guffaw. Like I said, you’ve made “god exists” a principle and are using it to justify why god exists. That’s illogical - not that logic has ever been religion’s strong suite of course.

How about assuming that the Universe is eternal? As known from science, the Universe emanates from a singularity and expends for billions of years before then contracting and going back to a singularity before the cycle is repeated. Ergo, no mystical “outside the Universe” hocus pocus needed and we’re all happy.

This god is a myth - just like the beast under your bed, in your closet, in your head.
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Because the universe is material. And if you say the universe is eternal then presumably it is infinitely old and I’m sure you’re aware of the logical difficulties that poses.
 
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