Your creation that you didn't make perfect and that will fail you over and over again (from the perspective of your god).
Religion, what's the point?
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Your creation that you didn't make perfect and that will fail you over and over again (from the perspective of your god).
No. I would say that the light is on because I pressed the light switch.
Where has the book got to do with anything.
Don't try to be too clever by making nebulous arguments. Just stick to cause and effect.
of course... It's all about the context. That was the next one right after 'free will' in the brainwashed christian bingo.How about you tell me context of those horrible, horrific passages.
Though why a god would even need his holy word to be read 'in context' is amazing to me. Surely he'd be plainly spoken and get it right the first time. An omnipotent god wouldn't need someone else to tell me how to really read the words that I'm reading.
Anyway, give me the context for these:
No. 1: St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
No. 3: A command of Moses:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)
No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
No. 11: God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him: 1st Samuel 6:19 in the King James Version: “And he smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men (50,070)”. Kill 50 000 men for looking at something?
No. 12: You can kill a woman if she seizes a man's private parts without his permission: Deuteronomy 25:11-1: If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.
No. 13: Perversity and human trafficking condoned: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)
No. 14: Sex slavery condoned: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." Exodus 21: 7-8
No. 15: . Divorce akin to debauchery: "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18)
No. 16: Cannibalism: "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son...." (II Kings 6:28-29)
No. 17: If your genitals have been damaged, stay out of church: "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)
No. 18: Incest and getting drunk with dad is no problem if the world is running thin on suitable DNA donors: And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the elder went in and lay with her father: but he perceived not neither when his daughter lay down, nor when she rose up. And the next day the elder said to the younger: Behold I lay last night with my father, let us make him drink wine also to night, and thou shalt lie with him, that we may save seed of our father. They made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in, and lay with him: and neither then did he perceive when she lay down, nor when she rose up. So the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father. Genesis 19:31-36]
No. 19: Looking at a woman with desire is akin to adultery: "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)
No. 20: But incestuous rape is cool: And when she had presented him the meat, he took hold of her, and said: Come lie with me, my sister. She answered him: Do not so, my brother, do not force me: for no such thing must be done in Israel. Do not thou this folly. [II Kings 13:8-12] But he would not hearken to her prayers, but being stronger overpowered her and lay with her. [II Kings 13:14]
No. 21: Pray in private, and if you do so in church, do so quietly: Matt 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others."
No. 23: God smites women, children and often animals with equal gusto, he seems to equal evil and wrong doing by association, rather than by being guilty of the personal, individual act:
"Behold with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day." (II Chronicles 21:14-15)
No. 24: . Rev 21: 8
"liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Eternal damnation for lying? In South Africa murderers and rapists often get released for good behaviur, lying is politics.
it's endlessly amusing seeing religious folk try and defend all the rubbish in the bible, coming up with all sorts of strange excuses and mental gymnastics, instead of just accepting the far easier solution to why the bible is the way it is: because it was written by a bunch of dudes in a far less progressive time than we now live. isn't that just... easier? any god that would want to be associated with the amount of disgusting viewpoints in the bible is no god i would want to worship.
So... how did god come into existence?
While true, it is the same argument as with elements effecting global warming: The world should eat/produce half the amount of meat we are currently eating/producing today to reduce the impact on the climate. But since we are not Gods, thus not able to perform such monumental feats as creating a universe in 7? days and nights, this has to be a gradual decline.
Common sense: Without diving into its origin, history and discussing its meaning today, we can certainly come to a common sensus that common sense is related to perception, logical thinking and understanding ones perception.
For the third or fourth time... God is eternal, therefore does not come into being.
Not just that but it was written many many years after any of the events it describes.
And it was written by people who wanted to tell a story the way they wanted almost to sensationalise from vested interest.
Not that much different to today's juornolists.
Does anybody really believe what is written in a newspaper. Hardly.
So why should we really believe what was 'written' following many years of storytelling and translations etc.etc.
What's your source of this information, mate?
Correct. God doesn’t exist because it never came into being.
Brilliant, well done.
Seriously though... what created god? (Other than man)
If you say nothing, then how does god exist? (Other than man inventing him)
I don’t know of any Christian or any monotheist who believes in a created God. The creator of the universe is presumably outside of the universe, so timeless and immaterial.
In response to your second point, I don’t understand what you’re getting at here. Assume God exists but humans don’t exist for a few billion years. Does that mean God doesn’t exist for a few billion years until humans start talking about Him?
What I’m getting at is there was no god until some human concocted it to get people to do what they’re told.
Well you would say that since you don’t believe in God’s existence.
How do you know?
How can you actually prove that?
Nothing can be eternal. And if god had a purpose then something must have created it, according to your logic.
@McUnited
I'm also waiting on your context for just the passages that I have selected. Explain to me how I'm reading it wrong.
I'm also waiting on your context for just the passages that I have selected. Explain to me how I'm reading it wrong.
The ‘First Cause’ argument has long been rejected by philosophers and very very few outside of theologians ascribe any importance to it. Universe has a beginning -> God created the universe has a massive hole, since who created God -> God is eternal -> why can’t universe be eternal?
The fact is we are still in the dark about the nature of the universe, so event like the Big Bang can either be absolute or circular ‘beginning’. God is there just to fill in the void in our knowledge, for some. The God of the gap.
The fact is we are still in the dark about the nature of the universe, so event like the Big Bang can either be absolute or circular ‘beginning’. God is there just to fill in the void in our knowledge, for some. The God of the gap.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Love a good stoic
This is like the end of Criminal Minds!
McUnited.
While I most certainly do not share your views on God and religion and I also don't agree with your comments in this thread, I have to say that I admire your conviction.
It is important that we all believe in something; in my case the science I have studied and which I understand.
I am sure that you also have a pretty good understanding of it.
All I would say is that scientific discoveries are progressively disproving the creation theory and you should recognise what science is telling us.
It is entirely possible to believe in God but also accept the science related to cosmology and physics.
The only thing you're right about there, is that god is "immaterial".
I think one man nailed it on religion and "god". So I'll just quote:
Where do these places ‘heaven’ & ‘hell’ exist? I am assuming you believe they do physically exist? What’s beyond their borders / before their borders?
How can this pass muster? Can you offer a link?
Actually, as per the church's apologists - led by the likes of Ken Ham - you can't. You can't believe in evolution, natural selection etc. and disbelieve in the ark and associated myths while being a Christian. You see, faith demands that you accept it. "The book" must not be questioned - because if you do, you allow people to cherry-pick what they accept and what they don't - and where does that leave the organization of the church? What if people start saying "Hey, my beliefs are my own personal beliefs and I'm not going to be donating money to you for running a tax-free enterprise for your own benefit if you're homophobic and misogynistic"? It would kill the revenue stream - so the Church will never allow it.
In before he says they're "immaterial"
As I have mentioned in a previous post, I have a very good friend who is also a vicar. I have spoken to him about this very subject and not only does he agree that the creation theory is now not right he also said that most of the people he knows in the church also don't believe in it.
That is not hypocrisy it is just reality.
The point he is making is that your friend, the Vicar, isn’t actually a Christian now, because he does not believe in the infallible Word of God as the infallible Word of God.
Modern Evangelical Christian theology teaches that your friend will be cast into Hell for that as a false preacher.
Also it’s kind of a big deal because creation theory and the garden of Eden/original sin concept is kind of the basis of Christianity. If we have no sins, what did Jesus of Nazareth die for then? Nothing.
He is most certainly a Christian because he does believe in God and he does believe in the Christ Jesus.
He is a seriously intelligent person with an engineering background.
It would therefore be stupid of him to ignore the current thinking.
Religion is far more than blindly adhering to things one no longer believes. It is a Christian way of life.
By the way I would be very careful on passing judgement on someone who you do not know.
There is believing and there is believing and everyone is perfectly entitled to their own personal views.
@Buster15 You missed his point mate. He didn’t cast any judgment on your friend, only pointed out your friend’s opinions would make him a heretic at best in his own religion.
Thank you for explaining that to me.
Anyway. Enough of this as it would be wrong of me to say anymore about this person.
Bingo bongo
Precisely. The phrase “Cafeteria” Christianity comes to mind.
According to Evangelicals, the Bible even calls them out on it...
I would say one ought to believe in God because of the science. I'm not sure what you mean by 'creation theory'...
Last nights result should prove beyond all doubt that there is a God.
Why assume they're physical?
What evidence is there that one can experience anything, let alone eternal torture, outside of a physical form?
Why would your loving god wish for us to be tortured for all eternity? Why does he send us there? We have already established that we do not have free will, and that it is obviously god that sends us there as it is impossible for us to do it ourselves.
And what is the context for those passages. I realise there was 20 odd, and obviously there are many more in the bible that we can work with, but how about just giving me the right context for a few of them.
And yet you steadfastly refuse to cite any scientific publications that allude to a god or any evidence pointing to one. 'Creation theory' is what religion would have us believe - that the Universe (very geocentric one) was created in 6 days. Interestingly, this god chappie apparently made light first (note though that there was no Sun and no stars); earth existed but was "formless" (whatever that means); yada yada and so on.
Science has the big bang and also dates the Sun as being almost 100 million years older than Earth. Go figure.
Yet, you say you believe in god and (I assume) religion because of science. Elaborate...
Cheers!