Religion, what's the point?

My youngest (6) is being taught about Christianity at school, and he now believes in God and all that happened in the bible he's been taught so far.

Now, I don't particularly care about religion nor am I bothered by those that do, but surely the teachings in school should be about what it is and not about pushing it's agenda? It's 2017, not 1017...
 
Redlambs said:
My youngest (6) is being taught about Christianity at school, and he now believes in God and all that happened in the bible he's been taught so far.

Now, I don't particularly care about religion nor am I bothered by those that do, but surely the teachings in school should be about what it is and not about pushing it's agenda? It's 2017, not 1017...
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This is why they do Sunday School for the little ones. Indoctrination
 
Jakarta's Christian governor jailed for blasphemy against Islam

Jakarta's Christian governor was sentenced to two years in jail for blasphemy against Islam on Tuesday, a harsher than expected ruling in a trial that was seen as a test of religious tolerance in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim-majority nation.

The guilty verdict comes amid concern about the growing influence of Islamist groups, who organized mass demonstrations during a tumultuous election campaign that ended with Basuki Tjahaja Purnama losing his bid for another term as governor.

President Joko Widodo was an ally of Purnama, an ethnic-Chinese Christian who is popularly known as "Ahok", and the verdict will be a blow to a government that has sought to quell radical groups and soothe investors' concerns that the country's secular values were at risk.

As thousands of supporters and opponents waited outside, the head judge of the south Jakarta court, Dwiarso Budi Santiarto, said Purnama was "found to have legitimately and convincingly conducted a criminal act of blasphemy, and because of that we have imposed two years of imprisonment".

Andreas Harsono of Human Rights Watch described the verdict as "a huge setback" for Indonesia's record of tolerance and for minorities

"If someone like Ahok, the governor of the capital, backed by the country's largest political party, ally of the president, can be jailed on groundless accusations, what will others do?," Harsono said.

SUPPORTERS SHOCKED

Thousands of police were deployed in the capital early on Tuesday in case clashes broke out, but there was no immediate sign of any violence after the court's verdict.

Purnama told the court he would appeal the ruling.

There was shock among his supporters outside the court and some wept openly.

Prosecutors had called for a suspended one-year jail sentence on charges of hate speech. The maximum sentence is four years in prison for hate speech and five years for blasphemy.

Hardline Islamist groups had called for the maximum penalty possible over comments by Purnama that they said were insulting to the Islamic holy book, the Koran.

Purnama denied wrongdoing, though he apologized for comments he made last year criticizing his opponents' use of the Koran in political campaigning ahead of the election for governor.

Purnama lost his bid for re-election to a Muslim rival, Anies Baswedan, in an April run-off - after the most divisive and religiously charged election in recent years. He will hand over to Baswedan in October.

Analysts say the radical Islamist groups that organized mass protests against Purnama had a decisive impact on the outcome of the election.

Rights group fear they are in the ascendant in a country where most Muslims practise a moderate form of Islam and which is home to sizeable communities of Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, and people who adhere to traditional beliefs.

The government has been criticized for not doing enough to protect religious minorities but Widodo had urged restraint over the trial and called for all sides to respect the legal process.

His government said on Monday it would take legal steps to disband Hizb ut-Tahrir Indonesia (HTI), a group that seeks to establish an Islamic caliphate, because its activities were creating social tensions and threatening security.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-politics-idUSKBN1842GE
 
Apparently he was brought up on charges for saying people had been deceived if they thought the Koran forbade them from voting for him.
 
2cents said:
Ffs Ireland:

Stephen Fry faces blasphemy probe after God comments

Police in the Republic of Ireland have launched an investigation after a viewer claimed comments made by Stephen Fry on a TV show were blasphemous.

Officers are understood to be examining whether the British comedian committed a criminal offence under the Defamation Act when he appeared on RTE in 2015.

Fry had asked why he should "respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world.... full of injustice".

He later said he was not "offensive towards any particular religion".

According to a report in the Irish Independent newspaper, no publicised cases of blasphemy have been brought before the courts since the law was introduced in 2009 and a source said it was "highly unlikely" that a prosecution against Fry would take place.

25,000 euros fine
Appearing on The Meaning of Life, hosted by Gay Byrne, in February 2015, Fry had been asked what he might say to God at the gates of heaven.

Fry said: "How dare you create a world in which there is such misery? It's not our fault? It's not right. It's utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain?"

He went on to say that Greek gods "didn't present themselves as being all seeing, all wise, all beneficent", adding "the god who created this universe, if it was created by god, is quite clearly a maniac, an utter maniac, totally selfish".

The Irish Independent reported a member of the public made a complaint to police in Ennis in the same month the programme was broadcast. He was recently contacted by a detective to say they were looking into his complaint.

The viewer was not said to be offended himself but believed Fry's comments qualified as blasphemy under the law, which carries a maximum penalty of a fine of 25,000 euros (£22,000).

The law prohibits people from publishing or uttering "matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion".

The government said at the time it was needed because the republic's 1937 constitution only gives Christians legal protection of their beliefs.

'Absolutely astonished'
Fry's representatives have been contacted for a comment.

Speaking to the BBC in 2015, Fry said he had been "absolutely astonished" by some of the reaction on social media to what he had said on the show.

He said: "I don't think I mentioned once any particular religion and I certainly didn't intend, and in fact I know I didn't say anything offensive towards any particular religion."

A police spokeswoman told the BBC: "We are not commenting on an ongoing investigation."
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It's been dropped:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ntial-number-of-outraged-people-35692915.html
 
Carolina Red said:
Apparently he was brought up on charges for saying people had been deceived if they thought the Koran forbade them from voting for him.
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That's ridiculous. More humans passing laws on God's behalf under the pretence of obedience. If they bother opening the Quran they will read first hand of the hell fire that awaits such deceivers.
 
Dumbstar said:
That's ridiculous. More humans passing laws on God's behalf under the pretence of obedience. If they bother opening the Quran they will read first hand of the hell fire that awaits such deceivers.
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I guess that hypocrisy is considered abhorrent in Islam? Mind you, nearly every religion strongly condemns hypocrisy.
 
AXVnee7 said:
I guess that hypocrisy is considered abhorrent in Islam? Mind you, nearly every religion strongly condemns hypocrisy.
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I've said it quite a few times but will repeat that hellfire will have a massive population of people that called themselves 'Muslims' in this life. And they will be in the lowest pits too. In short yes, hypocrisy is one of the worst things in Islam.
 
Thinking about this recently (I was raised Christian, have had a share of my doubts about my religion but do generally have faith in the existence of God - maybe not totally as Christian church portrays Him but still), if there was a God and his goal was to give eternal life to those who believe in him, it would sort of make sense for him to provide them with as many doubts as possible over their lifetime to pick the ones who do believe in him despite all that. It's a far-fetched theory which all atheists will basically laugh at, but I do think that science and religion can co-exist and the fact that we can explain these days so many things with science does not necessarily prove that there is no God. To be fair I do find the arguments of both sides funny most of the time.

Elon Musk recently got a theory that we are all simulated and it's actually got some credit too. If we died long time ago but found a way to simulate another life for ourselves, without knowing of past life (because it'd screw up too many things), we'd not be aware of that during our current lifetime either. Hell, it could even be God himself who created this simulation for us and just threw a lot of facts out there to get us confused. We know so little about time, space and the origin of world that honestly I am willing to allow people to believe in everything that makes them feel good.

Also, if it turns out there is God who rewards people after death if you trust in Him, then it gives you a shot at being rewarded if you do follow the religion and it doesn't really cost anything. There's no advantage I could possibly ever get through being an atheist. :o
 
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Sarni said:
Thinking about this recently (I was raised Christian, have had a share of my doubts about my religion but do generally have faith in the existence of God - maybe not totally as Christian church portrays Him but still), if there was a God and his goal was to give eternal life to those who believe in him, it would sort of make sense for him to provide them with as many doubts as possible over their lifetime to pick the ones who do believe in him despite all that. It's a far-fetched theory which all atheists will basically laugh at, but I do think that science and religion can co-exist and the fact that we can explain these days so many things with science does not necessarily prove that there is no God. To be fair I do find the arguments of both sides funny most of the time.

Elon Musk recently got a theory that we are all simulated and it's actually got some credit too. If we died long time ago but found a way to simulate another life for ourselves, without knowing of past life (because it'd screw up too many things), we'd not be aware of that during our current lifetime either. Hell, it could even be God himself who created this simulation for us and just threw a lot of facts out there to get us confused. We know so little about time, space and the origin of world that honestly I am willing to allow people to believe in everything that makes them feel good.

Also, if it turns out there is God who rewards people after death if you trust in Him, then it gives you a shot at being rewarded if you do follow the religion and it doesn't really cost anything. There's no advantage I could possibly ever get through being an atheist. :o
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You're right, it is pretty far-fetched and laughable. Imagining an infallible being so anthropomorphised is a tip off, straight away. It gives the whole game away in its infancy, and it's perfectly in line with the notion that man has made god, and not the other way around. This description of god is not only anthropomorphised, it's construed projecting the worst bits of what it is to be a human. It's not, in other words, that it's the bearded guy in the sky, it's that he is basically a puerile rats maze architect, vain, unjust, and sadistic. If his motivations really don't go beyond giving carrot and stick for what others think of him, what a child like, narcissistic tyrant he is? If indeed, as you say, his entire plan is to provide people with as many doubts as possible (which of course it couldn't be, because it's incongruous with any version of Christianity), then - what an absolutely monstrous thing it would be, to reward those who fail this elaborate prank, with eternal damnation in a lake of fire.

Of course, the whole 'many doubts out there' is an outlook encumbered with a contemporary bias. This is how it looks to you now. If Christian stories are to be believed, god didn't adhere to this maximising doubt principle at all. He would converse with his subjects on a daily basis in The Old Testament, appearing in his own personage. In The New Testament, Jesus performs countless miracles. Are you to tell me that a person witnessing one such miracle (first hand) was intended to be filled with doubt? The answer to that has to be a resounding no. So then how come - some people in history, were given plenty of evidence on which to decide whether there is a god or not (supposedly); others like you and me were only given hearsay upon hearsay, a written account riddled with discrepancy, based on an oral tradition of events that took place 50 years prior; and others still, were given no inkling at all (which has to be the case for all those who lived in times before the supposed revelations). So this is not only a rats maze with a monstrous punishment attached to it, it's one where the rats aren't even all playing by the same rules.

Science isn't in the business of proving non existence. We aren't born omniscient, and then chalk off all the beliefs that we find evidence of non existence for. We are born ignorant, and then we start thinking something is true when we find evidence for it's existence. It's of course a convenient way of obfuscating the question of evidence and proof, by pointing to false equivalence, that religious people just never tire of. 'Science doesn't disprove' is true and meaningless. Kinda like saying "This season has been an improvement on Van Gaal's last season", as if that meant something.

Your paraphrasing of Pascal's Wager I don't have much to say about. I guess it's consistent with the notion that it's just some game, and the whole trick is deceiving the capricious child in the sky, that you're of the right clan. It's a mockery, incongruous with any mainstream religious doctrine, but then you've disassociated yourself from those anyway.

I concur with your 'allowing people to believe in everything that makes them feel good'. Religion however, is (unfortunately) much more than just a benign comfort blanket. It's a system of belief, an ideology. It contains normative statements within the myth and folklore. Like any other ideology, it has to be open to evaluation and scrutiny, as well as ridicule if one is so inclined, and that's a point of contention, now as much as ever.
 
I find it laughable.
The all powerful God that knows even the hair on or heads and loves is more than we can ever comprehend waits for us in heaven.
But vengeance is his. Against his own kids? When my kids fight I yell at therm both.
If either was kidnapped I'd save them.
If they were in poverty is feed and clothe them.
And so on.
This ALL POWERFUL God doesn't do anything.
 
Moonwalker said:
You're right, it is pretty far-fetched and laughable. Imagining an infallible being so anthropomorphised is a tip off, straight away. It gives the whole game away in its infancy, and it's perfectly in line with the notion that man has made god, and not the other way around. This description of god is not only anthropomorphised, it's construed projecting the worst bits of what it is to be a human. It's not, in other words, that it's the bearded guy in the sky, it's that he is basically a puerile rats maze architect, vain, unjust, and sadistic. If his motivations really don't go beyond giving carrot and stick for what others think of him, what a child like, narcissistic tyrant he is? If indeed, as you say, his entire plan is to provide people with as many doubts as possible (which of course it couldn't be, because it's incongruous with any version of Christianity), then - what an absolutely monstrous thing it would be, to reward those who fail this elaborate prank, with eternal damnation in a lake of fire.

Of course, the whole 'many doubts out there' is an outlook encumbered with a contemporary bias. This is how it looks to you now. If Christian stories are to be believed, god didn't adhere to this maximising doubt principle at all. He would converse with his subjects on a daily basis in The Old Testament, appearing in his own personage. In The New Testament, Jesus performs countless miracles. Are you to tell me that a person witnessing one such miracle (first hand) was intended to be filled with doubt? The answer to that has to be a resounding no. So then how come - some people in history, were given plenty of evidence on which to decide whether there is a god or not (supposedly); others like you and me were only given hearsay upon hearsay, a written account riddled with discrepancy, based on an oral tradition of events that took place 50 years prior; and others still, were given no inkling at all (which has to be the case for all those who lived in times before the supposed revelations). So this is not only a rats maze with a monstrous punishment attached to it, it's one where the rats aren't even all playing by the same rules.

Science isn't in the business of proving non existence. We aren't born omniscient, and then chalk off all the beliefs that we find evidence of non existence for. We are born ignorant, and then we start thinking something is true when we find evidence for it's existence. It's of course a convenient way of obfuscating the question of evidence and proof, by pointing to false equivalence, that religious people just never tire of. 'Science doesn't disprove' is true and meaningless. Kinda like saying "This season has been an improvement on Van Gaal's last season", as if that meant something.

Your paraphrasing of Pascal's Wager I don't have much to say about. I guess it's consistent with the notion that it's just some game, and the whole trick is deceiving the capricious child in the sky, that you're of the right clan. It's a mockery, incongruous with any mainstream religious doctrine, but then you've disassociated yourself from those anyway.

I concur with your 'allowing people to believe in everything that makes them feel good'. Religion however, is (unfortunately) much more than just a benign comfort blanket. It's a system of belief, an ideology. It contains normative statements within the myth and folklore. Like any other ideology, it has to be open to evaluation and scrutiny, as well as ridicule if one is so inclined, and that's a point of contention, now as much as ever.
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Well, fully expected it so no surprises there but I honestly did not mean to hurt any atheists feelings with that post. However irrational it may seem, I do have some sort of a belief even AND I don't fully agree with a lot of what my religion says. I was raised a Christian and I am going to a Christian church but I do admit that part of it is not something I can believe in. The vast majority of the Old Testament for example is something I hardly pay attention to. I'd probably describe this as believing in God that we got bit wrong idea of at the beginning.

As for the incredibly harming effect religion has on humanity, I won't try to prove you wrong, will just say that me (or anyone else) saying on an Internet forum that they have some sort of a belief is completely harmless and does not require a reaction of 10 different people which is what this thread has mostly been about for the last million pages. I do agree with the notion that religions have caused a lot of trouble over centuries but on a personal level, there is really no harm done when a person believes (at least I believe so). I did not even mean to go into any discussion here because I am well aware how toxic this thread is, so should have probably not written any of that in order not to hurt people's feelings anyway. It is my only crime in here.

End of the day we are all going to walk out of the simulation we are in, pick a new body and get into the capsule on the spaceship we are in. :)
 
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Sarni said:
Well, fully expected it so no surprises there but I honestly did not mean to hurt any atheists feelings with that post. However irrational it may seem, I do have some sort of a belief even AND I don't fully agree with a lot of what my religion says. I was raised a Christian and I am going to a Christian church but I do admit that part of it is not something I can believe in. The vast majority of the Old Testament for example is something I hardly pay attention to. I'd probably describe this as believing in God that we got bit wrong idea of at the beginning.

As for the incredibly harming effect religion has on humanity, I won't try to prove you wrong, will just say that me (or anyone else) saying on an Internet forum that they have some sort of a belief is completely harmless and does not require a reaction of 10 different people which is what this thread has mostly been about for the last million pages. I do agree with the notion that religions have caused a lot of trouble over centuries but on a personal level, there is really no harm done when a person believes (at least I believe so). I did not even mean to go into any discussion here because I am well aware how toxic this thread is, so should have probably not written any of that in order not to hurt people's feelings anyway. It is my only crime in here.
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I initially wanted to write a preface to my post that would include a host of platitudes that would be more amicable and ingratiating , then thought 'better' of it, as it would be needlessly patronising, and I hate that much more than disagreement, so I went In media res.

I understand that you wanted to leave a more 'book of impressions' type of comment than start a conversation. That's how it looked like too, but Ive fired a loaded gun anyway. This isn't because any feelings were hurt. Id like to think there isn't a single thing that could be written on an anonymous internet board that could genuinely hurt my feelings, and your views seems as benign as they are common.

So it's as we were I guess.
 
Moonwalker said:
I initially wanted to write a preface to my post that would include a host of platitudes that would be more amicable and ingratiating , then thought 'better' of it, as it would be needlessly patronising, and I hate that much more than disagreement, so I went In media res.

I understand that you wanted to leave a more 'book of impressions' type of comment than start a conversation. That's how it looked like too, but Ive fired a loaded gun anyway. This isn't because any feelings were hurt. Id like to think there isn't a single thing that could be written on an anonymous internet board that could genuinely hurt my feelings, and your views seems as benign as they are common.

So it's as we were I guess.
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:lol: That's okay.

I'm not an amazingly religious person to be fair. Having belief in God or the higher power as some may call it in my opinion does not require one to fully follow everything their religion says. I have no problem with people telling me that large chunk of Christianity is mental because I fully get how it can be perceived this way, and truth be told I am myself finding large chunks of it very tough to follow too. I am more of a person who does believe that there is a God and that there is more to our lives than the biology just because that's how I feel (or some may say I want to feel, but it's my feeling anyway). I don't necessarily feel that any religion has got the idea of God completely right though.
 
Found myself in an argument with a Muslim the other day over how they're treated in Britain, that skepticism over Islam is racism etc. Was I wrong in saying that it isn't racist, Islam is not a race but a conscious choice, therefore people have a right to criticise that choice? I don't dislike any people who believe in an idea, but I can dislike the idea itself, of which Islam is one of them. I argued it's a pretty toxic religion that oppresses women. I wouldn't be drawn into talking about terrorism since it's a totally separate argument and one that's been done to death. I merely said I didn't agree with or like his beliefs and I had a right to do so, yet I knew for a fact he as a person was otherwise sound. It calmed down a bit after that, but I think he thought he 'won' because of it. :lol:

Still, it was interesting to say the least.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
Found myself in an argument with a Muslim the other day over how they're treated in Britain, that skepticism over Islam is racism etc. Was I wrong in saying that it isn't racist, Islam is not a race but a conscious choice, therefore people have a right to criticise that choice? I don't dislike any people who believe in an idea, but I can dislike the idea itself, of which Islam is one of them. I argued it's a pretty toxic religion that oppresses women. I wouldn't be drawn into talking about terrorism since it's a totally separate argument and one that's been done to death. I merely said I didn't agree with or like his beliefs and I had a right to do so, yet I knew for a fact he as a person was otherwise sound. It calmed down a bit after that, but I think he thought he 'won' because of it. :lol:

Still, it was interesting to say the least.
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Racist
 
Billy Blaggs said:
I find it laughable.
The all powerful God that knows even the hair on or heads and loves is more than we can ever comprehend waits for us in heaven.
But vengeance is his. Against his own kids? When my kids fight I yell at therm both.
If either was kidnapped I'd save them.
If they were in poverty is feed and clothe them.
And so on.
This ALL POWERFUL God doesn't do anything.
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0:27
 
Billy Blaggs said:
I find it laughable.
The all powerful God that knows even the hair on or heads and loves is more than we can ever comprehend waits for us in heaven.
But vengeance is his. Against his own kids? When my kids fight I yell at therm both.
If either was kidnapped I'd save them.
If they were in poverty is feed and clothe them.
And so on.
This ALL POWERFUL God doesn't do anything.
Click to expand...
"Mysterious ways" and all that jazz though
 
2 Man Midfield said:
Found myself in an argument with a Muslim the other day over how they're treated in Britain, that skepticism over Islam is racism etc. Was I wrong in saying that it isn't racist, Islam is not a race but a conscious choice, therefore people have a right to criticise that choice? I don't dislike any people who believe in an idea, but I can dislike the idea itself, of which Islam is one of them. I argued it's a pretty toxic religion that oppresses women. I wouldn't be drawn into talking about terrorism since it's a totally separate argument and one that's been done to death. I merely said I didn't agree with or like his beliefs and I had a right to do so, yet I knew for a fact he as a person was otherwise sound. It calmed down a bit after that, but I think he thought he 'won' because of it. :lol:

Still, it was interesting to say the least.
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No, you're all good there as far as I'm concerned. All religion is tripe for me but at least some religions move with the times. Any religion where you behead gay people can be openly criticised in my opinion.
 
LuisNaniencia said:
No, you're all good there as far as I'm concerned. All religion is tripe for me but at least some religions move with the times. Any religion where you behead gay people can be openly criticised in my opinion.
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I don't really understand why it's never really brought up in the west. It probably has a lot to do with the speed to which many jump to accusations of Islamophobia. Even the word Islam or Muslim when uttered by a non-believer seems to have the ability to put everyone on edge. Feminism, for all its good points and all the progress it's made seems afraid to challenge the plight of women in countries such as Iran or Saudi Arabia. Instead they'd much rather focus on things that annoy them such as men sitting with their legs too far apart on a bus.

People seem afraid to call out Islam especially. I'm sure we all remember the magazine that published the drawings of Mohammed. When covering the story, CNN news admitted to pixelating the cartoons because they were fearful of retaliation. It seems to be the only religion where you should fear for your life if you speak against it. Penn and Teller said the reason they didn't do an episode on Islam during their Bullshit series but did do one on Christianity was because of the same thing. It's a widely held belief in Islam that if you mock Mohammed then you get what's coming to you. That's a very dangerous opinion to have, and I think it shuts down a lot of discussion about the problems that come from such a religion.
 
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