Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
- Start date
Yeah we say that now, but then watch when some aliens really do make contact with us the first phrase we translate will be something like "Have you accepted the Lord Bectar Barudaaph as your personal savior?" Or they will just destroy us for being a bunch of blasphemers who refuses to worship Bill, The Space Goat, Creator of the Universe and Eater of Space Garbage.
How the hell can a goat be the creator when a goat can't make a simple batch of nachos?
except there are multiple passages in qu'ran and hadith that support death penalty for homosexuality. (and yes, I know what a qu'ran and hadith is, before anyone tries to say I'm not a muslim so I can't know anything or speak about them)
and homosexuality isn't even the only problem... apostasy, blasphemy,.. list goes on.
Please show me where in the Quran it mentions death penalty for homosexuals.
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Why am I quoted in that ?
Well, the quran verses are just retelling of story of lot (which is a story concerning homosexuality in the eyes of allah in the first place), but the message is pretty clear.
Quran 7:80-84 (http://quran.com/7)
Quran 27:54-58 (http://quran.com/27)
Additionally from Hadith - Abu Dawud 38:4447 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/038-sat.php#038.4447)
and you still haven't answered for other "criminal offenses" such as apostasy and blasphemy.
I've brought up that Hadith before and was told to take it with a grain of salt, fwiw.
We'd have powered mash potato to prove our ingenuity though
This is talking about the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah which is mentioned in the book of Genesis and the Hebrew Bible. Please tell me where it instructs the followers of Islam to kill homosexuals.
As for your question about apostasy and blasphemy, once again show me where it instructs in the Quran for people to kill. It mentions that non believers will be punished in the afterlife, just as in the Bible and in the Torah. It does not instruct the followers to deliver the punishment. Does punishment happen in Muslim countries, sure it does and I am not a supporter of that. My belief is live and let live.
I will also bring this up before you do about taking lives in the Quran, this was instructed at a time when Islam had just been founded and the followers were being persecuted everywhere. It does mention to fight, fight until the non believers have been defeated.
@ghagua
What do you make of the Hadith quoting Muhammad telling Muslims to kill homosexuals?
What do you make of the Hadith quoting Muhammad telling Muslims to kill homosexuals?
I'll ask again, why was I quoted in that ?
Sorry, did not mean to quote you on this thread. It was supposed to be in the thread where the cop killed that guy. I wanted to quote that and say that the guy was executed
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I'm willing to bet that he had that quoted in his queue and ended up not posting in that thread and didn't realize it inserted in this one when he quoted something else.
At least that's what's happened to me before.
Again, please point me to the hadith that instucts the followers of Islam to kill gays. It mentions that they were punished, but it does not instruct Muslims to kill gays.
I personally take a lot of hadith with a grain of salt. It's supposed to be sayings of the prophet, but wordings can and do change when they are being passed on from generation to generation.
As for homosexuality, I support their rights to live as they want, I even support gay marriage if that makes them happy. Who am I to judge what they do with their lives.
yes, I'm well aware of the fact that that story is in the bible. but it doesn't detract from the fact that that same story is in the qu'ran, and it's crystal clear from that story that Islam teaches homosexuality is wicked, and allah has used death penalty to deal with homosexuals.
and as for the latter point, it's not explicitly instructed in the quran for the followers to kill homosexuals. but of course, quran isn't the only islamic holy text; hadith does directly back up my claims, as I've posted before.
fair enough with apostasy and quran (though quran does view apostasy extremely unfavorably). but since my original contention was on the point where you said "Islam doesn't teach people to kill innocents," hadith is more clear on this issue.
Sahih Bukhari
as for blasphemy in Quran (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/033-qmt.php#033.057)
good on you. too bad that significant percentage of muslims, "moderate" or extreme, disagree with that sentiment.
so many parts of the quran is outdated? got it.
and non believes haven't been defeated for over 12 centuries so is this thing still going on? looks like it. sort of.
let me ask you two questions before we continue this debate to see where we're headed with this, though: do you believe islam needs a reformation? do you think homosexuality, blasphemy, and apostasy should be punished in ANY form at ANY time (including the afterlife if you believe in it) in the future?
Love how the headline on the Ark page says it is "life sized".
The ark is part of one of the dumbest myths in the bible.
Even the very minor aspect of 'life sized' is an ongoing lie, comparing its slow construction by hundreds (thousands?) of people against the original myth of just Noah and his extended family doing it.
The list of issues with the ark and flood, as believed to be factual truth, rather than a fictional story, is immense, it doesn't take many brain cells to compile a long list of absurdities.
Non-muslims are also overwhelming sexist, against speech they disagree with, homophobic, racist and a whole lot of other backward things. Yet, the extremist minority in every other section of society is less violent. So I don't see the link between having certain backward views and violent terrorism. Tackling backward views is a general human aim, not an anti-terrorism one. Convincing an old lady of whichever faith that gays aren't that bad while a good thing, will have zero effect on the extremist factions of that faith. You have to keep in mind that the west was also incredibly backward not long before you and I were born.
The problem is that Islam is the last religion where leaders can still incite violence and gain momentum through it. There are of course a few Christian nations with horrific violent reactions towards homosexuality but that's really quite tame compared to Islamic extremism. The answer here isn't to integrate Muslims. It's to scrutinise Islam into submission, scrutinise it to the point where it's power is as worthless as that of Christianity, and to the point where extremist muslims become a Westboro baptist church and we can make fun of them, rather than what we have which is just fecking grim.
Well they are more than welcome to go down the Libel route in the court arnt they. You can go on an on trying to make it the fault of western socitey, wouldnt change a thing.
What Bible says or doesn't say is irrelevant, because for the past 50 years, European states and European people do not give any importance to the Bible.
No, I have never read the Quran,
I know a lot of Muslims and they have told me that Islam does not in any way condone any from of terrorism.
The radicals interpret the Quran to justify their hatred, most Muslims are sickened that these people identify as the same religion as them.
Blaming Islam for these attacks will not solve anything.
I never said it was the fault of western society. Just stated Muslims don't get a fully free ride like some have suggested.
And yes some did go down the libel court. Our current Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, had to pay damages to an Imam he made stuff up on. Of course that happened months after the initial allegations to the Tory supporting imam and Khan and the news was released on the same day as the referendum.
But yeah overall Libel is very difficult to prove. A bit unlucky for our Defence Secretary that he is a bit of a moron.
And Christians will also tell you god has no problem with gays. Religious people are, largely, incapable of criticizing their holy books and prophets. Think about it, if you believed that @rednev was sent as a representative by a god who will grant you eternal happiness in paradise, would you criticise him?
While it may be true to an extent, it's not about Muslims. It's about the culture in which every person has grown. It's unfortunate that people who live under a dogmatic belief system find it difficult to leave their comfort and do not want to integrate with another culture. I quoted Pakistanis not because they are Muslims because they are one of the communities that find it tough to integrate in today's Britain.
Oh yeah...I don't deny that sexism and homophobia are problems within society as a whole, but such views are generally derided and seen to be in the minority.
While polls can often be unreliable, many of them show that, within Islam, views we'd think of as being archaic are quite common within British Muslims.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey
This poll has a third saying they wouldn't report someone they suspect of extremist leanings to the police, over half believing homosexuality should be illegal (compared to 22% for non-Muslims), and 39% believing that a woman should always obey her husband.
Again, I don't know how reliable that is...but it's hardly an outlier, or the only poll to show such results. I'm not sure how we can address such problems, but ensuring that such views are seen as wholly unacceptable (to everyone, not just Muslims), and that people who hold such views are in the wrong, is surely a must.
I largely agree with the second part of what you're saying, but I also think it goes hand in hand with aspects of integration; there are many Muslims who are against free speech when it comes to criticising Islam, and this is something that needs to be addressed. Integration might be the wrong word for it in some cases, though.
What a well reasoned response.
While I did say I believe Islam to be the least forward thinking religion, I don't think it's useful to attack it. What would be useful IMO would be working with Muslim countries to bring them into the modern world. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but countries like Saudi etc. while being modern in some ways, still have very backward mindsets in others. There are probably other countries that would benefit from this even more.
Also fixing what the US (and the UK) have done in certain places.
This would filter down indirectly to the Muslims in European countries and alleviate the pressure and hopefully eradicate extremism eventually.
No small task, but if we can pour money into fighting wars, why can't it be poured into fighting a war with peace? I'm afraid I already know the answer to that though.
For anyone so inclined, please use this thread to discuss religious aspects (if any) are related to terrorism.
I'm sorry but I am just startled by your inability to see the intellectual problem in what you just posted.
If you want an impartial view on whether a negative slant on a holy book is valid, why the flying feck would you ask somebody who believes that holy book to be the infallible/perfect word of God? Surely they are the last people whose opinion you would consider useful?
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So the person to discuss Islam with then becomes an expert on religion who is not a practitioner of said (or perhaps any) religion?
I think feminism growing a backbone would be a huge step forward. I know from experience (even in Britain) how appalling Islam can be for Muslim women and I know that under the surface there is a suppressed skepticism among them of their religion and what it teaches about their role in society. Islam is immensely fascistic in that it aggressively seeks to suppress criticism of it and it certainly does not tolerate rejection of it (good luck being a female Muslim apostate in a British Muslim community....let alone one in rural Pakistan), and at the moment this religio-fascism is being supported by a naive liberal class who aren't fully aware of it. Once Muslim women are given the freedom to reject the rules placed on them by men, then the religion will slowly start to unravel.
It depends on what kind of discussion you want to have.