Christ. I encourage others to investigate the claims for themselves. If you have a heart to seek Christ, then God is already at work...
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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Christ. I encourage others to investigate the claims for themselves. If you have a heart to seek Christ, then God is already at work...
No I don't. I don't reject any part of this out of hand.
And religion IS the topic of debate and is what I'm asking you about, if it makes you feel uncomfortable please feel free to tell me and I will stop asking questions about it, I don't wish to question your beliefs on it, I'm merely asking questions so I might learn more about it and who knows?
That's exactly what I'm doing though. Avoiding straight answers to straight questions is a real problem in this regards though, and that is a very disappointing aspect.
Well, I don't think I've avoided your questions. I've been as straight with you as I can be. If you're unhappy with the answers I've given, while I am not being rude, that's fairly typical in one who doesn't know Christ. I can only hold up Christ. I have no power in myself to save, Red. Only God can do that. You have to take your questions to God, ultimately.
I can give the gospel and explain it but I cannot satisfy an unbeliever's complaints. This is why God calls men to reason with him. You're just spinning your wheels until you're willing to do that.
That's not sufficient, as anyone could use your logic to make identical claims about their deity of choice. You have to provide tangible evidence. If you can't, nothing you say can be accepted as credible.
Now now, let's not try to play games here, I feel I've been very reasonable and have offered you plenty in terms of respect and even opened myself up a little. You can't precede being rude with 'without being rude' and thinking it will wash, because it won't. Believe me I saw you and Oates go at it earlier in this thread, let's not try to take this there because I promise you getting under my skin is a lot harder.
Back to civil conversation, yes you have dodged questions of mine, everything is in text. You also didn't answer my question on Empathy, you quoted the bible and expected it to be enough when you know very well that someone who doesn't follow your faith will not easily get what you were saying. So do you want to revisit that topic? Because you never answered my actual questions nor did you explain yourself. And that's all I asked.
So I'm an unbeliever now? Even though I'm clearly trying to understand, you now want to cast me aside? Surely that's your failure and not mine.
But surely you can see it from an non-believer's point of view since you were one? Someone who follows Islam will say exactly what you're saying, but for a different deity.
Edit: Same as Raoul.
I wonder what his view is on the elderly Joseph and his 12 year old child-bride.
The reason I prefaced the comment with that is because I am genuinely not being rude, nor trying to get under your skin. The bible classifies all those who don't claim Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour as those who reject him. This is why I said I really don't think your contention is so much with me, but comes from a genuine desire to know more about God. I can only point you in the right direction. You can take or leave my counsel. That's your prerogative.
I answered your question on empathy. I said it's an invitation to love and serve another as Christ has loved and served me. You then asked me about those who were born without empathy not being able to seek others in the same way "normal" people would, and I responded by saying that the Bible makes it clear that nobody seeks God. Not just those born with a seeming lack of propensity for empathy and compassion.
I gave plenty of reasons to believe Christ is who he says he is earlier in this thread.
"the bible"
There's a significant difference between "reasons to believe" and tangible evidence. Quoting the Bible is not sufficient.
I think that Mary was of child-bearing age and more than mature enough when she gave birth to Christ. Estimates for her age range between 12-15. God would not have subjected her to something she wasn't able to withstand.
The argument about her age is very arbitrary since it was common for girls to be given in marriage at young ages then on the basis that they were ready. Not prepubescent girls or those who hadn't undergone many of the physical changes that come with puberty.
Didn't you earlier tell me tribesmen should seek god though? But it doesn't answer the point, which is can someone with a lack of empathy like a typical serial killer ever truly find god and be redeemed?
And I know you do understand where I'm coming from. Brushing me off with claims of being some kind of unbeliever is a cop-out and frankly going by our conversations I'm surprised and a little saddened you'd resort to that. But let's move on from it, I accept you wasn't trying to be rude.
But you cannot wash your hands of it, you can't post a load of gospel and just expect me to understand. If you can't fully answer a question, there's no shame in that and it would serve us both better if you just said it. If you can, then perhaps you can try to explain what the gospel you quote means? Because there's numerous things you haven't answered, though again I thank you for all that you have.
I asked you this earlier about peadophiles which you brought up and you failed to answer my post.
Well, though it might seem like a minor point, it really isn't in terms of right understanding. People don't find God. God finds people. I didn't say that tribesmen should seek God. Everybody should seek God but they don't. But you see how this changes your question from one of, can a serial killer find God to one of, can God find a serial killer? Absolutely. It's happened many times.
So you see the logic flaw there right?
Anyway, thanks for your time. I have two more questions that this has lead me to and they go to @Penna and oates too, plus any muslim or other religious person on here can answer if they like. I promise they aren't loaded or supposed to lead anywhere, they have come to me from our discussion today.
1) If we assume God, or whatever deity people believe in, is infallible, is the bible? (Or Quran or other religious texts). As in are they open to abuse over the ages?
2) Can we find God (or Allah etc...) ourselves?
Can we find black matter? Anyway could God be an alien? (I'm watching too many shows of ancient aliens) Why "we" the living thing show up in our planet? Why life came to Earth 1 billion years ago? Where that bacteria came from? If our planet had the "right" environment for the bacteria to pop up, why we cannot duplicate? If we have energy in our body then what happens to our energy when we go? Too many questions and no answers.
Where is the flaw in logic, Red?
In answer to your question. Why not test them? That's what I did. I am convinced, for one, by prophecy that the Bible is the word of God. I cannot read Isaiah 53 (knowing the Isaiah 53 we have today is the one that was there before and during the time of Christ) and conclude any differently. That's just one text of so many. Not only that, I cannot consider the repeated and continual promise for Israel and not see God's work in the re-establishment of Israel today. I made a post earlier in this thread about the unreasonableness and totally unsatisfactory alternative explanations. Perhaps you will be similarly convinced. I'd advise finding my earlier post and considering it for yourself.
We cannot find God by ourselves. In God finding us, it can look like we found God, but ultimately, it's God who seeks out the lost and saves them. God also says that if you seek him earnestly you will find him, because a desire to seek him is God's work in a person. Othewrise, they will not seek God and will not repent.
So, how old's the Earth then Rompuy?
There isn't a Biblical answer to that question. People estimate the age from the Bible based on certain assumptions. I am not criticising those assumptions, I am just saying you can't know the age of the earth from reading the Bible. I think it's a wrong thing to pretend to know, so I don't do it.
You don't know how happy that answer makes me. (except, for future reference, it's about 4 and a half billion years old)
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Just because someone found pieces of a meteor they (well Paterson did) came with that number? Again we have questions on top of questions, where the iron, uranium, etc, came from? In the past Earth was the center of the universe (and flat) today is not the center but part of an expanding universe moving in black matter which nobody knows what it is but must be important for them, then they basically know where the center of the universe is, just use a number so big and nobody would question it.
"Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed."
Lavoisier
You say things like:
Then you say:
Which renders the entire point of sins being on different levels entirely obsolete. It doesn't matter what sins you've done if you find god. So therefore all sins ARE treated equally as long as you find him, so me having two children out of wedlock is essentially the same as me murdering two children so long as I find god.
Also, many serial killers work in the name of the lord, some would even share your views and live even closer to the bible.
Again that doesn't answer my question. God is infallible, is the bible?
You speak of finding God and you speak of God finding us. In either case, what part does religion HAVE to play in this? If God wants to find me, he will regardless right? Otherwise it's not really finding me if I'm seeking him out, it's the other way around.
Again I'm not questioning your faith in what you believe or your right to believe it, I'm just trying to understand what role any religion plays in the ultimate aim or getting to heaven or Mecca or whatever place people want to end up. I feel I can be open to the idea of a God and if he is what you say he is, I'll be fine with him. All without the need to risk being corrupted by man's intervention.
Now the big question: Why most doctors believe in God and afterlife?
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/8318894/n...t-doctors-believe-god-afterlife/#.U_zWUfldWE4
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/8318894/n...t-doctors-believe-god-afterlife/#.U_zWUfldWE4
Well if I ever am interesting in asking those questions, I know not to bloody bother asking you with that attitude!
Indeed. But I suppose the point being those questions are continually asked and tested and they find new ways to explain things. Religion on a whole is pretty static, Herman has even implied the bible is finished and nothing needs to be added. Rather than work together and test each other like scientists, Religious people bicker among themselves including those who worship the same God as this thread shows.
Heavy elements come from supernovae.
There's plenty of evidence for the age of our solar system, I'm not listing it all here. Dark matter's just a theory to explain mass deficit, nothing more mysterious than that.
This ain't the thread for science though.
To be fair that's a very religious country with over 300million people and they've asked a thousand.
I don't know if I would say that means 'most', though I wouldn't be surprised to be honest.
You're jumping around a lot, Red. Christ died on the cross, bearing the wrath of the Father, to atone for the sins of everyone who believes. That means you can be a guy working in a grocery store or a convicted paedophile, mass murderer, etc, and you can be completely forgiven for your sins because Christ died for you. Perhaps that hasn't been explained clearly in previous posts.
Anybody who lives in sin and thinks they're doing the will of the Father is deluded. Christians are to be conformed to the image of the Son of God. Everything must be put under Christ, so we look to Christ's example. You won't find justification for those kind of actions there...
The reason I didn't just say yes (I believe the Bible is infallible) is because you probably won't accept that answer. And, coincidentally, why would you just accept my answer if I said no? So, the only way you can find the answer to your own question is by studying the scriptures yourself. I am encouraging you to do so so you can know for yourself rather than just taking my word one way or another.
I speak of the Holy Spirit making people who are dead in sin alive to God so that they seek God, coming to Him most freely. You see, there's a work of God that draws men to Himself and in coming to God, people "find him" but not without God first drawing them. That's the Biblical view.
If God is who I say he is, Red, you should be concerned about your standing before him because he's a just judge. He won't allow sin to enter his presence because he's perfectly holy. He is holy beyond our ability to even imagine. When Isaiah, the holiest man in Israel, saw the Lord he was completely undone, professing himself a man of unclean lips. This is why the Bible says in Revelation that every knee will bow because the awesome holiness of the Lord is so great.
Really?
It's you who doesn't seem to have a clear idea of what it is you are trying to communicate. And may I ask why you are getting more and more defensive when I'm not questioning your faith? Is this really necessary:
How do you know what I would and wouldn't accept? Who are you to judge me simply because I'm trying to find out information?
If my questions are too difficult or making you uncomfortable, then just say and we'll end it there on good terms. But as I told you earlier, and I shall tell you again, this sort of response is unnecessary, it's frankly more of an indicator of your ability to debate than mine to understand.
Why should I fear a just lord if I'm aware I'm a sinner and would give myself to him?
The point being that God can completely forgive a person their sins (whatever they are) if they repent (which means to acknowledge you are a sinner and turn from those sins) and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. If they don't do that, they will be judged before the Great White Throne for their sins.
I am not getting defensive or trying to make a criticism of you by saying I didn't think you'd accept an answer that simply says the Bible is infallible.
You wouldn't have to fear separation from God ever again if you were to repent and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour. That's correct.
Twice you've been rude and a bit disrespectful, and I've been none of those things to you.
I told you I had no follow up and it wasn't loaded, so you could have simply chose to trust me and answered honestly. Can't you see the problem here? You've changed your answer based on what you 'think' I'd say, you gave me no chance and haven't exactly shown yourself in a good light by doing that.
I do understand it to a degree, because I'm sure you'll get flack for saying the bible is infallible, but I think I've shown you more respect than that. In fact it interests me, and in some way I could even say I admire that level of faith even if I don't see it.
As for God, I understand what you are saying. However I still don't see the connection between finding him and having to follow a religion to do so. I could find him on my deathbed, I may already have as years ago I certainly didn't believe in him at all. None of that or nothing you've said demonstrates to me why I need to follow christianity though. You've said yourself if God and myself find each other and if I repent my sins, which I'm very willing to do, then I'll be judged favourably. We all sin, priests and killers alike, but God will judge us equally and decide our fates no? Then the God you describe surely doesn't care about a book or words, he cares about our souls.
Well, my honest answer is one of encouraging you to search the scriptures and decide for yourself. I mentioned a couple of things that convinced me that the Bible is the word of God and implicit in that acknowledgement is the Bible's infallibility, however, perhaps that wasn't clear enough. I didn't just say the bible is infallible as a stand alone thing because i'd have thought you'd want some reason as to why I believe that. I apologise if I assumed too much.
I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, I am just answering as honestly and respectfully as I can.
Yes, God cares about your soul, and he died on a cross so that you wouldn't have to go to hell in your sin. That's the reason for the gospel. The gospel is God's chosen means of giving you that message. It's not about following Christianity or the things you've been told about it, but about accepting and trusting in Christ and following him.
And maybe one day I truly will. I have read the bible by the way, I can't say I've memorised it and can quote gospel, but I do have a copy and have read it.
I see it as a collection of stories, stories of meaning. But I also see it as a way to control, like every religion. Of course that doesn't mean I'm against all religions or people's right to practice them and it certainly doesn't mean I'm against a God, but man is infinitely fallible and we all know that. And just like I question science, I question the judgement of following a book that has been changed over the years to suit agendas be they holy and righteous or otherwise.
Since I've changed my views over the years on the potential for God to exist, I've thought more and more about it and realise that even if he does and even if he is going to judge us, since he made us in his image surely he wants the best for us. And living my life in a way that I think is the best way, and most importantly passing that on to my children and making sure they grow up to be even better people than I ever will be, is how I think he intended free will to really be about. I honestly don't think if he exists he cares if we worship him above all else, I think he cares that we live our lives in the manner he hopes we would.
I just wish religion didn't have to be such a curse to the world as much as it's been a blessing. Surely that would be the view of such a God too, but then I don't speak for him.
I can help you with Hinduism there lambs. According to the Hindu scriptures, like the Greek Gods, the Hindu gods were hardly a basis for moral rights. We regularly see them committing adultery, deception, fraud, and even rape. I remember reading somewhere in Nietzsche that the Greeks constructed their Gods as extremes of humans who enjoyed life and everything that comes with it at the fullest without repentance because their own lives were limited by their abilities and their morals. It is the exact same with Hindu Gods. The Hindus don't celebrate their Gods so they could be "Saved" as Herman would say. Each God is a God of certain natural element. There are Gods of rain, love, lust, wealth, you get the drift. So they are celebrated so they could bestow their mercy and goodwill upon us. The Heaven in Hinduism is a heaven where Gods indulge, full of excess, it is no place of moral superiority as such. It has fairies dancing, overflowing food, and all that. If you go on to a Hindu and say, hey your certain God committed so many horrors (which they will have), what do you have to say to that? He will probably reply, I have never said my God is the epitome of goodness. I am not sure if death and afterlife in Heaven is a part of Hindu mandate.
Regarding your second question, can we find God ourselves. That is a bit complicated. Both in Hinduism and Buddhism. For Hindus and Buddhists, our existence in this world is a major cause of distress. They believe in reincarnation, and believe that no matter how many times we die, we will come back to live again. This cycle of life is called as "Karmic Chakra". Salvation resides in freeing oneself from this cycle. It is the realization that body is perishable and subject to earthly "Moha" or temptations and salvation is just acceptance of soul as supreme and rejections of all worldly temptations. Therefore, in these religions, anyone can achieve salvation, Hindu/Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, anyone.
If you notice, both these religions at their heart have principles of humanity, self-realization and knowledge expansion. They are not incompatible with our ways of lives and are open to interpretation. Of course there are people who interpret the scriptures literally and that has posed numerous problems here including that of untouchability which lets say is equivalent to slavery or racism, but the second paragraph is the jist of both religions.
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What actually is holiness?
Its the difference between a normal vest and a string vest.
Not all Buddhists believe in the cycle of rebirth. Not that i otherwise disagree, just saying. I know that for may the idea of rebirth is difficult to accept (i dont believe in it).
Very interesting, thanks for the response!