Religion, what's the point?

Well, it would be the same thing as any science. I don't have the means to observe an atom, but I can have good confidence that scientists have.

Indeed, we only know how to count to ten because we are told that is correct.

However, sciences move forward and religion never seems to. Not that I want our conversation here to turn into all that, because as you correctly point out I personally don't know an atom is real, however I am not quoting science books to you yet you are quoting something you have no real knowledge of to me.

That's the difference, and I hope you get my meaning by that.


Your concern is legitimate. many man-made religions do in fact seek to do this and all other religions apart from Christianity will tell you what works you have to do in order to earn God's sympathy. There is none of that in Christ. In Christ, the work is finished. Christ conquered death and the forces of evil at the place of the cross and rose to new life, ensuring the resurrection from the dead to everlasting life of all those buried with him (all those whose sins are atoned for by Christ's death on the cross. The substitutionary really does nail our old, sinful nature to the cross with Christ).

So still my question remains unanswered though, why the need for religion at all? I've enjoyed this discussion with you and I honestly thank you for being patient and answering my questions, but what I've learned so far is that God (as I hoped) judges us all on, let's say merit for lack of a better word right now, and he's tolerant and welcoming of all people regardless of what they believe if they live up to what he expects.

So why? Why the need to subject myself to something you agree could be tainted by man?
 
Indeed, we only know how to count to ten because we are told that is correct.

However, sciences move forward and religion never seems to. Not that I want our conversation here to turn into all that, because as you correctly point out I personally don't know an atom is real, however I am not quoting science books to you yet you are quoting something you have no real knowledge of to me.

That's the difference, and I hope you get my meaning by that.




So still my question remains unanswered though, why the need for religion at all? I've enjoyed this discussion with you and I honestly thank you for being patient and answering my questions, but what I've learned so far is that God (as I hoped) judges us all on, let's say merit for lack of a better word right now, and he's tolerant and welcoming of all people regardless of what they believe if they live up to what he expects.

So why? Why the need to subject myself to something you agree could be tainted by man?

I don't agree that I have no real knowledge of what I am explaining. We could ask the question: what constitutes knowledge? But I am really not that keen on addressing that one, are you?

There is a need for Christ because man is irrevocably condemned in his sin otherwise. Salvation not only saves, it also transforms a man so that he can then seek after the things of God. The cross cannot be tainted by man, Red. That's the glorious good news of the gospel.
 
I don't agree that I have no real knowledge of what I am explaining. We could ask the question: what constitutes knowledge? But I am really not that keen on addressing that one, are you?

No, which is why I didn't bring that particular subject of science up. Because I'm sure you've heard it all before and I'm not making any point against what you believe, I'm just looking for answers because as I've stated I'm honestly interested.

That being said, I don't base my belief system around science, I trust in it because a lot of it is tangible to me. Religion is not. For example as I've stated, I'm open to the possibility of a God, I think it's foolish not to consider all the options including those we still have no concept of. I'm also not too proud to admit I have prayed before and I even had a very vivid dream about something I constantly remember and think back on as sometimes as possibly the closest thing I've ever had to what you'd describe as hearing god's words.

Though he was VERY different to what you'd imagine and I can't remember what we talked about. Still, it's not something I'm ever afraid of discussing, since it could well have been a dream brought on by whatever chemicals science says are in my brain, and the fact I played Resident Evil 4 that night and the setting was eerily reminiscent of one of those scenes, or it could very well be what I kind of hope somewhere inside that it was. Either way I rule nothing out and when I get into a discussion like this I find myself coming back to things like that because I think I'm more open to a concept of God because of that.

However, it's not God's existence that I can see being a question for concern, it's religion.


There is a need for Christ because man is irrevocably condemned in his sin otherwise. Salvation not only saves, it also transforms a man so that he can then seek after the things of God. The cross cannot be tainted by man, Red. That's the glorious good news of the gospel.

But that's not what I asked.
 
Well, it would be the same thing as any science. I don't have the means to observe an atom, but I can have good confidence that scientists have.

The thing with atoms though, is that what was taught to me about them is corroborated by what I see everyday around me, by the experiments I've made myself, and by how clearly that notion explains so many other things. Even in issues I have little comprehension of, the scientific community uses methods that I agree with, and hence it's easy to believe what they "preach", without ever having to lose my critical thinking.

I don't see how you can compare the level of confidence one can have in science, strengthened by it's own ability to reinvent itself and correct past mistakes of its own body of knowledge, with a book, which is just that, a book. I have yet to see anything around me to corroborate what is written there. It's exactly the contrary. It goes against everything I've learned (not being told to learn). To make it worse, it's so simple to understand how it came into being, and how it came to be believed upon...

I can imagine having faith, and can try to get in the shoes of someone with faith, and can understand their behavior in the light of that.

Can't you imagine not having faith yourself? Imagine you don't believe in God. And from this standpoint, how do you expect to convince other people just by quoting a book for which non-believers have a rather simple and mundane explanation to justify it's existence...
 
So it's one rule for them, another for me?

Because I don't know God to be real either. I'm open to the possibility, but that doesn't explain why I have to have faith and others don't. Tribesman haven't been conditioned like we have to even have a concept of heaven and hell, so why and how would they seek it anyway?
Well, you have had the opportunity to explore religion, you have made your choice and have rejected it so far. People living in remote tribes haven't had the opportunity to explore it. I wasn't conditioned into religion, my parents weren't religious or Catholic.

Unbiblical concept, Penna. Makes a mockery of the Lord's salvation. That will be thrown into the fire along with the rest of Roman Catholic tradition.

Yes of course Herman, you know everything - I had forgotten that for a minute. Thank you for reminding me that the Catholic Church is completely wrong and that we aren't Christians. I'll tell my lovely priest when I see him, he can chuck his vocation and go on a permanent holiday to Ibiza.
 
Well, you have had the opportunity to explore religion, you have made your choice and have rejected it so far. People living in remote tribes haven't had the opportunity to explore it. I wasn't conditioned into religion, my parents weren't religious or Catholic.



Yes of course Herman, you know everything - I had forgotten that for a minute. Thank you for reminding me that the Catholic Church is completely wrong and that we aren't Christians. I'll tell my lovely priest when I see him, he can chuck his vocation and go on a permanent holiday to Ibiza.

I've rejected nothing.

But that is a yes then isn't it? I'm judged differently?
 
Yes of course Herman, you know everything - I had forgotten that for a minute. Thank you for reminding me that the Catholic Church is completely wrong and that we aren't Christians. I'll tell my lovely priest when I see him, he can chuck his vocation and go on a permanent holiday to Ibiza.

You've had repeated opportunity to discuss the gospel of Jesus Christ with me but you always run away from the discussion. The reason I am condemning your introduction of Catholic tradition into this thread to answer Red's questions is because it is precisely that: tradition. Your answers aren't based on the gospel and I am not going to allow for Red's impression to be twisted by the Roman Catholic Church's unholy waffling (I hope you enjoy the double entendre).

I'd rather your priest did go on a permanent holiday to Ibiza so you can have the real High Priest instead, which is Christ Jesus.
 
Another question, and maybe @Penna or @oates can help with this one too, are all sins considered equal in the eyes of the lord?

One single sin condemns a man as guilty. However, people will be judged according to their works done in the flesh before the Great White Throne, which means though hell is appalling for all, it is not equally appalling, if that makes sense? There are differing degrees of punishment, essentially, but a person who dies in sin apart from Christ is separated from God for all eternity, which is the most pressing thing to emphasise here.
 
One single sin condemns a man as guilty. However, people will be judged according to their works done in the flesh before the Great White Throne, which means though hell is appalling for all, it is not equally appalling, if that makes sense? There are differing degrees of punishment, essentially, but a person who ides in sin apart from christ is separated from God for all eternity, which is the most pressing thing to emphasise here.

That doesn't really, as you did earlier I might remind you, answer my question. So I'll provide an example:

Is having children out of wedlock a sin? If so, is it comparable in the eyes of the lord to a child murderer?
 
That doesn't really, as you did earlier I might remind you, answer my question. So I'll provide an example:

Is having children out of wedlock a sin? If so, is it comparable in the eyes of the lord to a child murderer?

The fact there are differing degrees of punishment should suggest that God doesn't treat every sin exactly the same way. Those who are part of Islamic State will face a more torturous existence in hell than an unbelieving grandma for instance, unless she was secretly running the Mafia from her flat. :lol:
 
The fact there are differing degrees of punishment should suggest that God doesn't treat every sin exactly the same way. Those who are part of Islamic State will face a more torturous existence in hell than an unbelieving grandma for instance, unless she was secretly running the Mafia from her flat. :lol:

Ok so what about this then.

I'm not a saint, I know I've done bad things. Not murder or adultry or any of that, but as a lad I stole a few sweets and things and was rude to some people. I've done things I regret and they live with me, some things more than others. I accept and acknowledge those bad things, I accept and acknowledge there could well be a god and most importantly (to me) I bring my two young sons up to live good honest lives, to not steal and lie and most of all to respect each other and everyone else.

Assuming I'm teling you the truth, and I am btw, do you think I'll find a place by God's side in heaven?
 
Ok so what about this then.

I'm not a saint, I know I've done bad things. Not murder or adultry or any of that, but as a lad I stole a few sweets and things and was rude to some people. I've done things I regret and they live with me, some things more than others. I accept and acknowledge those bad things, I accept and acknowledge there could well be a god and most importantly (to me) I bring my two young sons up to live good honest lives, to not steal and lie and most of all to respect each other and everyone else.

Assuming I'm teling you the truth, and I am btw, do you think I'll find a place by God's side in heaven?
"do you accept Jesus as your lord and savior?"

That, according to Christianity is the main sin. You could murder an entire people but if you accept Jesus you're good to go. Which is why their moral standards shouldn't be taken seriously.
 
Also @Penna surely being subjected to multiple conflicted religions is equally bad, if not worse, than not being introduced to one?
I don't know, I managed to work my way through the maze. I have explored lots of different Christian denominations and even looked at Judaism at one point. I started doing this 40 years ago, which is why Herman's dismissal of the validity of my conclusions makes me laugh. I took a long time getting to where I am now.
 
I don't know, I managed to work my way through the maze. I have explored lots of different Christian denominations and even looked at Judaism at one point. I started doing this 40 years ago, which is why Herman's dismissal of the validity of my conclusions makes me laugh. I took a long time getting to where I am now.
Where are you now?
 
It's surprising that there are no derogatory remarks about Pythogoras, Archimedes, etc. then on this thread...
Pythagoras' work can be proven using theorems. I learned them for my school leaving exams.....
 
I don't know, I managed to work my way through the maze. I have explored lots of different Christian denominations and even looked at Judaism at one point. I started doing this 40 years ago, which is why Herman's dismissal of the validity of my conclusions makes me laugh. I took a long time getting to where I am now.

I can respect that. I made some jokes a few pages back, but I accept religion means a lot to a lot of people and that does interest me.

But you do agree with me then that we are seemingly all judged by different criteria then?
 
"do you accept Jesus as your lord and savior?"

That, according to Christianity is the main sin. You could murder an entire people but if you accept Jesus you're good to go. Which is why their moral standards shouldn't be taken seriously.

Well when he appears to me upon my death I have no problem accepting him. That's what I'd like people with faith like Herman and Penna to explain, why exactly there is any need for religion in that respect.
 
Ok so what about this then.

I'm not a saint, I know I've done bad things. Not murder or adultry or any of that, but as a lad I stole a few sweets and things and was rude to some people. I've done things I regret and they live with me, some things more than others. I accept and acknowledge those bad things, I accept and acknowledge there could well be a god and most importantly (to me) I bring my two young sons up to live good honest lives, to not steal and lie and most of all to respect each other and everyone else.

Assuming I'm teling you the truth, and I am btw, do you think I'll find a place by God's side in heaven?

The deeds we've done in the flesh can't save us, Red; it doesn't matter how well we've done some things and how moderately badly we've done others, because we are all sinners, having sinned against a holy God, all our righteousness is but filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. The only means of salvation is to believe in the one whom God sent (Christ), accepting him as Lord and saviour, which means to make him Lord of your life and to trust in his finished atoning work on the cross alone. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, Red, and it is the only way to enter the Kingdom of God.
 
The deeds we've done in the flesh can't save us, Red; it doesn't matter how well we've done some things and how moderately badly we've done others, because we are all sinners, having sinned against a holy God, all our righteousness is but filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. The only means of salvation is to believe in the one whom God sent (Christ), accepting him as Lord and saviour, which means to make him Lord of your life and to trust in his finished atoning work on the cross alone. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, Red, and it is the only way to enter the Kingdom of God.
See what I mean. Rape all the kids you want, so long as you accept Jesus you're a good person! It's absolutely immoral, this gospel lark.
 
The deeds we've done in the flesh can't save us, Red; it doesn't matter how well we've done some things and how moderately badly we've done others, because we are all sinners, having sinned against a holy God, all our righteousness is but filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. The only means of salvation is to believe in the one whom God sent (Christ), accepting him as Lord and saviour, which means to make him Lord of your life and to trust in his finished atoning work on the cross alone. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, Red, and it is the only way to enter the Kingdom of God.

But you do see the glaring flaws in that though right? I mean it's one thing to want to believe that, but surely you know the kind of question I can ask?

I'll start with, what about if I find god when I'm 79 and die a day later? Does that erase everything?
 
See what I mean. Rape all the kids you want, so long as you accept Jesus you're a good person! It's absolutely immoral, this gospel lark.

Its the core poverty of religion. You can do as you please as long as it conforms to the rules of your religious text or deity, both of which are merely fabricated concepts by people thousands of years ago.
 
But you do see the glaring flaws in that though right? I mean it's one thing to want to believe that, but surely you know the kind of question I can ask?

I'll start with, what about if I find god when I'm 79 and die a day later? Does that erase everything?

How do you know you'll encounter God just before you die? How do you know that if you reject him over and over until that day you will be able to repent on your deathbed? you see, it isn't just mental assent; it's a change of heart and mind. The thief on the cross repented as he saw the righteousness of the one he was crucified next to, while the other thief could not repent.
 
Its the core poverty of religion. You can do as you please as long as it conforms to the rules of your religious text or deity, both of which are merely fabricated concepts by people thousands of years ago.

The problem is also that the likes of Herman, as good as he's been with me, has avoided much easier questions of mine than that. Even Penna has struggled to give an answer to a direct question.

How am I supposed to faith in something that even it's own followers don't fully understand or at least provide some kind of answer for?
 
The problem is also that the likes of Herman, as good as he's been with me, has avoided much easier questions of mine than that. Even Penna has struggled to give an answer to a direct question.

How am I supposed to faith in something that even it's own followers don't fully understand or at least provide some kind of answer for?

I haven't avoided any of your questions intentionally.
 
How do you know you'll encounter God just before you die? How do you know that if you reject him over and over until that day you will be able to repent on your deathbed? you see, it isn't just mental assent; it's a change of heart and mind. The thief on the cross repented as he saw the righteousness of the one he was crucified next to, while the other thief could not repent.

But how do you know I won't?

That's the key, I am open to the concept and I've demonstrated that. I also live a life I think he'll agree with, and I repent everything I know I've done wrong and am willing to things I probably didn't even know.

So by all you've said, aren't I entitled to be judged by the Lord and very likely to be judged in his favour?
 
But how do you know I won't?

That's the key, I am open to the concept and I've demonstrated that. I also live a life I think he'll agree with, and I repent everything I know I've done wrong and am willing to things I probably didn't even know.

So by all you've said, aren't I entitled to be judged by the Lord and very likely to be judged in his favour?

Because one sin disqualifies you from entering the Kingdom. Nobody can truthfully say they haven't sinned.

I pray you do encounter God before you die. Genuine repentance and trust in Christ always results in salvation. Christ doesn't cast out any who come to him. While you do not come to Christ, you remain alienated from God in your sin...
 
I haven't avoided any of your questions intentionally.

Intentionally or not, you've avoided some and given very indirect answers to others.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to use that as a stick to beat you with, but it is a very common scenario whenever I've asked for answers. I don't expect you all to know and understand everything, how I phrased that was wrong, but question dodging and scripture quoting is a very common practice when it comes to religion and you are clearly intelligent enough to see how that can affect people's opinions and minds.
 
One single sin condemns a man as guilty. However, people will be judged according to their works done in the flesh before the Great White Throne, which means though hell is appalling for all, it is not equally appalling, if that makes sense? There are differing degrees of punishment, essentially, but a person who dies in sin apart from Christ is separated from God for all eternity, which is the most pressing thing to emphasise here.
I'm getting the ironic punishments vision of Homer's hell in the Simpson. So you like donuts eh? Well have all the donuts you like!!
 
Because one sin disqualifies you from entering the Kingdom. Nobody can truthfully say they haven't sinned.

I pray you do encounter God before you die. Genuine repentance and trust in Christ always results in salvation. Christ doesn't cast out any who come to him. While you do not come to Christ, you remain alienated from God in your sin...

But nothing in that explains why I need a religion to do that.

As I said, I might already have encountered god. I've certainly prayed before. My willingness to believe in him cannot possibly be judged by you or anyone else, other than he, so why should I take the risk of being corrupted by something man can clearly corrupt?
 
I'll trust God to be as good as believers say. If so, I'm fully confident he'll understand why I don't believe him and give me a chance for repentance after I meet him, or an undeniably identified representative of him.
 
Last edited:
I do find it amusing that Herman beats Muhammad with the pedophile stick yet is happy to admit a pedophile who accepts Jesus will see the full glory of god. Yet a do-gooding atheist will perish for eternity. It's twisted, man.
 
But nothing in that explains why I need a religion to do that.

As I said, I might already have encountered god. I've certainly prayed before. My willingness to believe in him cannot possibly be judged by you or anyone else, other than he, so why should I take the risk of being corrupted by something man can clearly corrupt?

Religion is not what's being offered. Christ is... It's not a case of rejecting religion but of rejecting the Son of God. Do you reject Christ and his atoning sacrifice on the cross?
 
Religion is not what's being offered. Christ is... It's not a case of rejecting religion but of rejecting the Son of God. Do you reject Christ and his atoning sacrifice on the cross?

Any number of people of different faiths can say similar things about their deity of choice. What makes you any different from them ?