Religion, what's the point?

Stanzin Lama said:
The Heaven in Hinduism is a heaven where Gods indulge, full of excess, it is no place of moral superiority as such. It has fairies dancing, overflowing food, and all that. If you go on to a Hindu and say, hey your certain God committed so many horrors (which they will have), what do you have to say to that? He will probably reply, I have never said my God is the epitome of goodness. I am not sure if death and afterlife in Heaven is a part of Hindu mandate.

Regarding your second question, can we find God ourselves. That is a bit complicated. Both in Hinduism and Buddhism. For Hindus and Buddhists, our existence in this world is a major cause of distress. They believe in reincarnation, and believe that no matter how many times we die, we will come back to live again. This cycle of life is called as "Karmic Chakra". Salvation resides in freeing oneself from this cycle. It is the realization that body is perishable and subject to earthly "Moha" or temptations and salvation is just acceptance of soul as supreme and rejections of all worldly temptations. Therefore, in these religions, anyone can achieve salvation, Hindu/Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, anyone.
Click to expand...

Hinduism is more like a set of belief's rather than a definite set of rules. It does not mandate that everyone must live by those rules, but if you live by those rules you get 'moksha' or simply, go to heaven. The concept of 'excesses' that you say is not anyway different from popular concept of heaven. I kind of like your analogy to the Greeks, but there are significant variations. The gods in Hinduism are not be all and end all. They are still capable of making mistakes and there are numerous stories of gods being punished by bigger gods to teach them lessons.

The parts I highlight contradict each other too. No hindu will 'explain' on why their god has multiple wives or such. You just have to take it with a pinch of reality as various avatars of the same god have different characters (Rama vs Krishna). It does not mean that Krishna was a bad god whereas Rama was not.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Hinduism is more like a set of belief's rather than a definite set of rules. It does not mandate that everyone must live by those rules, but if you live by those rules you get 'moksha' or simply, go to heaven. The concept of 'excesses' that you say is not anyway different from popular concept of heaven. I kind of like your analogy to the Greeks, but there are significant variations. The gods in Hinduism are not be all and end all. They are still capable of making mistakes and there are numerous stories of gods being punished by bigger gods to teach them lessons.

The parts I highlight contradict each other too. No hindu will 'explain' on why their god has multiple wives or such. You just have to take it with a pinch of reality as various avatars of the same god have different characters (Rama vs Krishna). It does not mean that Krishna was a bad god whereas Rama was not.
Click to expand...

I was not implying one God to be bad as such. Just that their character is not infallible, even that of bigger Gods. Brahma was cursed by Saraswati for improper conduct, Shiva's fits of temper and destruction is well known, and Bishnu was a very clever and conniving God, see King Bali for instance. So, all Gods in Hinduism were Gods who cannot be deemed as perfect moral authorities. And regarding heaven, I am not clear on that. May be you can help me out. Are you suggesting the road of Moksha leads to heaven? Because, as I said, the heaven too is a center of worldly pleasures and a soul residing in heaven has not achieved Moksha at all. IMO, in Hinduism, heaven too is a transient plane of existence for bodies which committed good deeds in their lives. And once your time in heaven is up, you get reborn again.
 
After my Dad died I went to the school of psychic studies (or whatever it is called) to get some closure. The psychic I saw was world renowned (not in a tv sense) and he was incredibly accurate in the information he gave me(he told me what side of the bed I stood on when I watched my dad die and even what my last conversation with him was).

I'm sceptical by nature but the info he was giving me was not generic. He was either reading my mind or genuinely psychic.

I asked him about God and he said their was one, but he referred to him as the creator. He also said that we all judge ourselves when we die and that religion has created a God fearing society that is not accurate. This psychics spirit guide had painted a far different picture of death and the afterlife than is taught to us through the different religions.

I find it ridiculous to believe that I can live my life without hurting anyone or anything but if I don't confess my sins will burn in hell.

Yet if I murdered and raped 100 people but then confessed to it be absolved of my sins and enter heaven.

Any God that takes that stance is one that I don't believe in.
 
Garethw said:
After my Dad died I went to the school of psychic studies (or whatever it is called) to get some closure....
I'm sceptical by nature ....
Click to expand...

I am not trying to be an insensitive ass (though it seem to come naturally), but you seem to contradict yourself there. Good scam artists are good because they are fantastic at reading people. There has never ever been a so-called psychic that has been able to do what they claim to under observed scientific scrutiny.

Why is it necessary to believe in any god regardless of if they are good and loving or mean and vindictive?
 
MarylandMUFan said:
I am not trying to be an insensitive ass (though it seem to come naturally), but you seem to contradict yourself there. Good scam artists are good because they are fantastic at reading people. There has never ever been a so-called psychic that has been able to do what they claim to under observed scientific scrutiny.

Why is it necessary to believe in any god regardless of if they are good and loving or mean and vindictive?
Click to expand...

I was always raving about Ravel Morrison to my dad when he was alive. When I went and saw the psychic he'd recently joined West Ham. The psychic turns around and says to me "your Dad wants to know why Morrison was sold if he is so good?". It was just one thing after another that he was hitting a home run with. As I said before I am very sceptical but it literally blew my mind.

You are quite right, the majority of psychics are fraudsters that manage to use generic info to trick people. The info he provided was not generic at all though.

I'm not religious at all but I keep an open mind :-)
 
My mum and dad went to a psychic with me when I was a baby.
She said that I would follow my dad into the navy. My mum was amazed that she knew my dad had been in the navy but when she told me years later I realized how she had known. My dad had a small swallow tattoo on his hand. She had obviously seen it.
I didn't join the navy. There was no way I was going to give herthe satisfaction. Cheating bitch.

Anyway, back on topic.
Religion is just a business.
 
Garethw said:
I was always raving about Ravel Morrison to my dad when he was alive. When I went and saw the psychic he'd recently joined West Ham. The psychic turns around and says to me "your Dad wants to know why Morrison was sold if he is so good?". It was just one thing after another that he was hitting a home run with. As I said before I am very sceptical but it literally blew my mind.

You are quite right, the majority of psychics are fraudsters that manage to use generic info to trick people. The info he provided was not generic at all though.

I'm not religious at all but I keep an open mind :-)
Click to expand...

Well that is certainly creepy. Or not, if you happened to be talking in a waiting room. All it takes is one little thing picked up while in line or in a sitting area. If you were dead silent and didn't say anything that they could have picked up with audio equipment then that is pretty damned good/freaky.
 
Silva said:
I'm guessing he worked out you were a united fan. Most people support the club their dad did. It's not that great a guess.
Click to expand...

How would he have known I was a United fan? I wasn't wearing a football top, I don't have any tatoo's and I went there with my Mum and brother who aren't football fans so I hadn't even mentioned anything about football that day.

I'm very sceptical of psychics but went there for my Mum. The specific details he came up with for all of us (seperately)were mind blowing.
 
Last edited:
God works in mysterious ways.

But since most religions seem to say we can find him on our own, we go back to the question of why religion is necessary anyway then? Right back to the start, what's the point?

Other than mass control from hundreds of years ago that is.
 
Redlambs said:
God works in mysterious ways.

But since most religions seem to say we can find him on our own, we go back to the question of why religion is necessary anyway then? Right back to the start, what's the point?

Other than mass control from hundreds of years ago that is.
Click to expand...
Why even god? Religion seems silly (of the hundreds/thousands of religions why would any one be the right one), but even the belief that there was a supernatural power that created the universe, with us in mind seems rediculous, especially the more we learn about the cosmos.
 
MarylandMUFan said:
Why even god? Religion seems silly (of the hundreds/thousands of religions why would any one be the right one), but even the belief that there was a supernatural power that created the universe, with us in mind seems rediculous, especially the more we learn about the cosmos.
Click to expand...

Yes, but it remains a possibility though right? It cannot be ruled out.

However religion is something far easier to dismiss, though not completely of course. After all if you can find this creator without it, it does render the whole thing rather pointless and in a lot of ways a burden on the human race these days.
 
Redlambs said:
Yes, but it remains a possibility though right? It cannot be ruled out.

However religion is something far easier to dismiss, though not completely of course. After all if you can find this creator without it, it does render the whole thing rather pointless and in a lot of ways a burden on the human race these days.
Click to expand...
I agree, it can't be ruled out. There just isn't any evidence to support it and the more our scientists explore the cosmos the more evidence we will find that there is most likely a natural explanation to the universe.
 
MarylandMUFan said:
I agree, it can't be ruled out. There just isn't any evidence to support it and the more our scientists explore the cosmos the more evidence we will find that there is most likely a natural explanation to the universe.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I think I'd rather be open to the possibility of a god than closed off to the possibility of none.
 
Garethw said:
How would he have known I was a United fan? I wasn't wearing a football top, I don't have any tatoo's and I went there with my Mum and brother who aren't football fans so I hadn't even mentioned anything about football that day.

I'm very sceptical of psychics but went there for my Mum. The specific details he came up with for all of us (seperately)were mind blowing.
Click to expand...
Did you use a credit card to pay for the psychic's services?
 
Redlambs said:
God works in mysterious ways.

But since most religions seem to say we can find him on our own, we go back to the question of why religion is necessary anyway then? Right back to the start, what's the point?

Other than mass control from hundreds of years ago that is.
Click to expand...

The biggest mistake people who aren't religious make is to try and find a rational explanation for religious belief - some goal or outcome. But its not rational or logical.

Belief in God offers meaning in life in the same way that art or music does. Not by simple categorisation and explanation, but by hitting you straight in the feels. If you can explain to me exactly why music, fiction, paintings or ballet is necessary, then I'll tell you why religious belief is.
 
bishblaize said:
The biggest mistake people who aren't religious make is to try and find a rational explanation for religious belief - some goal or outcome. But its not rational or logical.

Belief in God offers meaning in life in the same way that art or music does. Not by simple categorisation and explanation, but by hitting you straight in the feels. If you can explain to me exactly why music, fiction, paintings or ballet is necessary, then I'll tell you why religious belief is.
Click to expand...

Does music, fiction, paintings or ballet cause wars, control mass population or swear eternal damnation on those who don't follow rules thought up hundreds of years ago and translated and pulled apart time and time again?

And I'm not questioning why people believe and follow religion, I'm questioning the need for them full stop. If God is going to judge me regardless of if I want to go to church or a mosque or whatever, then why should I risk going somewhere that is basically man made telling me how to think?

You can have faith in God without the need to have faith in any religion.
 
Redlambs said:
Does music, fiction, paintings or ballet cause wars, control mass population or swear eternal damnation on those who don't follow rules thought up hundreds of years ago and translated and pulled apart time and time again?

And I'm not questioning why people believe and follow religion, I'm questioning the need for them full stop. If God is going to judge me regardless of if I want to go to church or a mosque or whatever, then why should I risk going somewhere that is basically man made telling me how to think?

You can have faith in God without the need to have faith in any religion.
Click to expand...

That's not actually an explanation. Explain to me why we need art or music and I'll explain why we need religion.
 
bishblaize said:
That's not actually an explanation. Explain to me why we need art or music and I'll explain why we need religion.
Click to expand...
The comparison is absurd. Music and art are leisurely pursuits and don't make the same kind of metaphysical claims religion does. You might as well ask why dogs like chasing tennis balls.
 
Silva said:
The comparison is absurd. Music and art are leisurely pursuits and don't make the same kind of metaphysical claims religion does. You might as well ask why dogs like chasing tennis balls.
Click to expand...

You really think music and art can be boiled down to simple leisure pursuits?

Now that is absurd.
 
bishblaize said:
That's not actually an explanation. Explain to me why we need art or music and I'll explain why we need religion.
Click to expand...

Why this cop out? You are asking me about something I haven't said, and are trying to be clever here, but it doesn't work like that. You can't equate Religion with any of those things you've listed nor can you argue with any of my points in this thread it seems.
 
Silva said:
The comparison is absurd. Music and art are leisurely pursuits and don't make the same kind of metaphysical claims religion does. You might as well ask why dogs like chasing tennis balls.
Click to expand...

It's utterly ridiculous in fact.

How do you 'feel' religion anyway? Religion doesn't need to be proved, it exists. Someone seems a little mixed up.
 
Silva said:
Hey man, there's eternal salvation in Bach.
Click to expand...

It was a genuine post trying to prompt a thought. Just don't reply rather than take the piss.

Redlambs said:
It's utterly ridiculous in fact.

How do you 'feel' religion anyway? Religion doesn't need to be proved, it exists. Someone seems a little mixed up.
Click to expand...

You didn't actually ask whether it exists, you asked why.

There are many things in the world that exist for reasons that are nothing to do with logic. Art & music are included in that list and there are countless others. They relate to how we perceive the world & understand our lives at some sort of deeper level.

In one way there's no need for them, in another way the almost ubiquitous nature of them proves we must need them. If we ever reach a day where we understand why things like art and music affect us so much, then we'll understand why religion and football exists too. But personally, I doubt we ever will know.
 
bishblaize said:
It was a genuine post trying to prompt a thought. Just don't reply rather than take the piss.



You didn't actually ask whether it exists, you asked why.

There are many things in the world that exist for reasons that are nothing to do with logic. Art & music are included in that list and there are countless others. They relate to how we perceive the world & understand our lives at some sort of deeper level.

In one way there's no need for them, in another way the almost ubiquitous nature of them proves we must need them. If we ever reach a day where we understand why things like art and music affect us so much, then we'll understand why religion and football exists too. But personally, I doubt we ever will know.
Click to expand...

You are trying to compare a man made control device with artistic forms. It's just wrong.

People follow religion because they have faith in god, some even believe the stories in the bible. You are confused as to what I'm asking, it's not about people's faith it's asking why the need for religion. Any religion.
 
bishblaize said:
To you perhaps. But you can't deny that they have deep meaning to others.
Click to expand...

Religion makes promises and threatens eternal damnation at the same time. It gives some hope, it gives other excuses. It controls a large part of everyone's lives whether we like it or not, and all is based on nothing more than stories from hundreds of years ago.

Comparing that all to art forms is a new one on me. And it is absurd as Silva said.
 
Redlambs said:
Religion makes promises and threatens eternal damnation at the same time. It gives some hope, it gives other excuses. It controls a large part of everyone's lives whether we like it or not, and all is based on nothing more than stories from hundreds of years ago.

Comparing that all to art forms is a new one on me. And it is absurd as Silva said.
Click to expand...

And yet it exists. Does that not show you more than anything else that it has nothing to do with logic? Or that people do not think in rational terms? That completely irrational thing that has brought so much misery (and happiness, and boredom) to so many people just should not exist.

If people were logical and lived in logical ways, religion would not exist. And neither would art or music. Or football. But they do. It meets some deeper need. Its about understanding & dealing with the world in terms outside of logic.

Sorry if that doesn't explain it. But life is full of unexplainable things. That's why I answered with an unanswerable question. It wasn't meant to be smart and sorry if it seemed that way. I'm certainly not a smart person. The idea was by giving you a question you couldn't answer it would point out you were asking one that can't be answered too - for the same reason.

As for comparing them. They're only different depending on the labels you use to categorise them. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the music I write and my spirituality (no belief in God though, before you ask) come from exactly the same place. They're very much the same thing.
 
bishblaize said:
And yet it exists. Does that not show you more than anything else that it has nothing to do with logic? Or that people do not think in rational terms? That completely irrational thing that has brought so much misery (and happiness, and boredom) to so many people just should not exist.

If people were logical and lived in logical ways, religion would not exist. And neither would art or music. Or football. But they do. It meets some deeper need. Its about understanding & dealing with the world in terms outside of logic.

Sorry if that doesn't explain it. But life is full of unexplainable things. That's why I answered with an unanswerable question. It wasn't meant to be smart and sorry if it seemed that way. I'm certainly not a smart person. The idea was by giving you a question you couldn't answer it would point out you were asking one that can't be answered too - for the same reason.

As for comparing them. They're only different depending on the labels you use to categorise them. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the music I write and my spirituality (no belief in God though, before you ask) come from exactly the same place. They're very much the same thing.
Click to expand...

Well that's the whole point, you keep missing! Religion exists, but why the need? We can have faith, find God and get into heaven fine on our own. Why take the risk it is just a control device? Your faith isn't in religion, it's in God. I understand what you are getting at trying to explain why people like their religion, and that's fine, but I'm just posing a question as to why there is a need for religion on a factual basis. If you read back a few pages you'll see where this came from, you'll see me trying to learn more from a religious poster then coming to this question.

Your last line is nonsense btw, you are very confused about that I think. I agree you feel music and emotion, but to say it's not logical is wrong. It's nowhere near the same as faith, you know the music is there for a start!
 
Stick said:
Did you use a credit card to pay for the psychic's services?
Click to expand...

My Mum paid for me and my brother to have readings when she had hers.

I'm a huge fan of the unexplained/paranormal and consider myself a bit of an expert on the subject. I know most of the tricks that fraudsters use but couldn't explain how he knew what he knew.

When someone tells you specific information, like word for word conversations that you had with someone that know one else heard it's pretty mind blowing.
 
Are you sure he didn't just check on your facebook profile or whatever?

I remember some bogus psychics doing that in the streets of Amsterdam (if I'm not mistaken) just to show people how easy it is to fool them.
 
Garethw said:
My Mum paid for me and my brother to have readings when she had hers.

I'm a huge fan of the unexplained/paranormal and consider myself a bit of an expert on the subject. I know most of the tricks that fraudsters use but couldn't explain how he knew what he knew.

When someone tells you specific information, like word for word conversations that you had with someone that know one else heard it's pretty mind blowing.
Click to expand...

Careful though, they could be demons. Not that I know any of this with certainity, but what I have heard (and once visited in a dream, not pleasant, he ate me), and I think it makes sense, is that all of these conversations with ghosts are really demons impersonating them. Why? Because the actual person has moved on, he's not hanging around in some ghost state for us to contact. At least that's what the so called "good spirits" are saying. They are not allowed to intervene like a jukebox, only the bad spirits can do that.

All mental to most here of course, but if you're already on a path to accepting different realities, be aware you'll probably find evil there as well. Only an evil we know little to nothing about.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.