I do attend a church within that group, yes. I had previously not heard of the Calrendon Trust or any affiliation with newfrontiers.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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I do attend a church within that group, yes. I had previously not heard of the Calrendon Trust or any affiliation with newfrontiers.
I read somewhere that Michaelangelo didn't want to do the Sistine Chapel.
I don't know... maybe I dreamt it.
Well, could you ask your pastor and report back here?
How is your church 'governed' for want of a better word?
I've seen it Malcolm, the painting, not the contract.
This thread could beat the Vidal one at this rate.
My own? The accounts and things of that nature are laid out in plain terms at various prayer meetings with all income (from each source - it all comes from within the church whether that's from general offerings or from gift days, etc) and expenditure listed and the church has regular meetings for all of the trustees and whatnot where the church discusses the various initiatives we're involved in. I don't really trouble myself with that side of things, in honesty. I've always been more interested in personal interaction, which is why I serve in the church's furniture bank, which provides for those who are/were homeless and those who have fallen on difficult times.
There's nothing underhanded that I can see, lol.
I don't believe that I insinuated that anything underhand was going on Herman, just demonstrating an interest, a curiosity if you like. But no, it doesn't answer my question.
My question to be clear is who assists Terry Virgo in leading the Church? Are there a group of people and by what term are they known?
Oh and of course, you will come back with an answer on what function the Clarendon Trust fulfils won't you?
You can read the newfrontiers statement of faith and send an email of inquiry yourself. I know Guy Miller usually finds the time to respond. I am not really sure why you're asking me to dig around for all the information for you. It seems a bit weird.
Are you interested in newfrontiers' idea of apostles?
I honestly don't know why I'd need to ask someone I don't know when we've got you here Herman. To be perfectly honest I just assumed you would know a bit about your church, I mean I've not asked any state secrets have I? I sincerely apologise if I have and I've caused some sensitivity.
I mean, surely you'd know, after all, you do come across as very informed about your church. I'm just trying to understand how all the churches and their leadership are structured. How long have you been a member of the church? Can you answer that or is it personal?
Here's an article by Terry Virgo on apostolic leadership (you can find the continuation of it in the links below it: http://www.terryvirgo.org/Articles/...es/Series/The_future_of_Newfrontiers_Who.aspx
It seems to talk a bit about Apostle's Herman, but then one of the links says that they mustn't call themselves apostles. I'm not really sure if I could find anything that would tell me how the organisation is structured, can you?
Did you mind me asking how long you've been a member Herman? I wondered because you'd not replied.
If you read the whole article, it talks about the apostolic sphere known as "newfrontiers" in the second half. That is the vision newfrontiers has as a family of churches. The article itself points out:
‘Denomination’ was an unknown concept. The word simply means ‘a name’. A coin denomination may be 50 pence or 1 cent, but when we think of church denominations, we tend to think of the structures associated with them, which tend to be impersonal, maybe associated with headquarters, rules and regulations, more of an institution than something vibrant and exciting. Very different from how Paul, for instance, related to his ‘sphere’ of churches.
When I moved to the part of the world I am currently in, I visited the church I am now a part of (just over a year ago) and found a vibrant, gospel-centred community there. That is primarily why I have continued on there, along with the many friends and the family in Christ I have there.
I see you are a literalist in all aspects of life. Perhaps he was actually saying that religious people are just as capable of finding god/religion implausible except when their particular god/religion that is considered?
Perhaps he should just say what he means instead of using terms incorrectly and speaking in tautologies?
Well that's interesting Herman, just to be sure, what I think you are saying is that there is no formal structure, no leaders etc. But I have to assume that Terry Virgo is THE Leader is he?
So who appoints pastors Herman? Terry? What about doctrine? If there is ever some small confusion who do your pastors go to? Who are they responsible to? The congregation or Terry?
I'm genuinely interested. What's the difference between your church and any other? What does it believe that no other church believes?
He did. It was pretty bloody obvious what he meant.
Who appoints pastors? My church has its own team of elders under the senior pastor. The current senior pastor was on the eldership team when the previous pastor moved on a few years ago. It's up to the individuals in each congregation to make decisions like that.
The reason we have a team of elders is so that issues concerning doctrine (if the senior pastor has an issue) can be discussed between them. If there was some irreconcilable difference then I am sure the pastor would seek the counsel of an apostle. for that region. I don't know how apostles are chosen within the newfrontiers family of churches because I just haven't been a member of the church for long enough to see it or to really have any interaction with an apostle.
The newfrontiers family of churches is also not claiming to be the only valid Church in the world. I don't know why you assume it is. Newfrontiers just believes in an apostolic sphere that grows over time. That's why there are outreaches in India, for example. it's a worldwide Church.
Your posts have about as much substance as your username suggests.
Well now you are starting to be confusing Herman, as it says on your own website they mustn't call themselves 'apostles' and yet you are talking about potential to interact with one!
Weren't the apostles the 12 disciples of Jesus? And is it not true that Terry Virgo used to have a group of men around him, 12 in fact, known as the Apostles but that now they have been disbanded and any group of men that acts as his deputies are appointed solely by him and not annointed by the church congregation? Maybe you've not been with the church long enough to know?
Do you have any female pastors in Newfrontiers Herman?
You're a funny guy, oates. Doesn't even read the material I dig up for him and then just moves on to another issue. The point about the original 12 is answered in the article, which makes the distinction.Newfrontiers does not believe in female leadership within the Church. if you read the introduction to newfrontiers on the website, it says that we are "complementarian" in our view of male and female. Different for a reason. We have not gone the way of the backslidden Church of England in implementing female pastors.
Nice line in debate. In the absence of evidence based critical thinking perhaps you should quote some more scripture?
Females aren't suited to leadership anyway, what with their rashness and mental frailty. Amiright?
God hated poofs and women. It is in the bible somewhere. Straight after the bit about unicorns.
I should have guessed. Part of a charismatic, evangelical nut job church. Makes Catholicism seem sane.
Shush Wibble, there's a godfight going on.
Lol. You are aware that unicorn, Biblically, just meant a creature with a single horn? the Prominent horn of the creature is used as a symbol for strength, just as it is in the prophetic writings. Look up the "horns" of revelation, for example.
Barrel of laughs me Herman but why would you attempt to ridicule someone who is genuinely interested in your church Herman? Do you get brownie points for that by your pastor? Ask him for me will you?
Newfrontiers does not believe in female leadership within the Church. if you read the introduction to newfrontiers on the website, it says that we are "complementarian" in our view of male and female. Different for a reason. We have not gone the way of the backslidden Church of England in implementing female pastors.
But in fact it is contradictory Herman, your own website says that you shouldn't call yourselves apostles and there's you insisting that you do. Talk about dichotomy - is it any wonder you confuse people and then you insult them?
Anyway, what is wrong with women and since you've just said one post ago that your church doesn't see itself as any better than any other why are you now insulting the Church of England with terms such as backsliding? On top of your insults towards the Roman Catholic Church!
Perhaps you need a while to sort yourself out. Do you think that maybe 1 year (or just over) with a church gives you enough experience to denigrate other peoples churches or indeed appear so arrogant towards nearly every other poster in the thread?
I'm beginning to wonder if you are possibly just a little silly Herman.
I remember seeing an interview with Glenn Danzig (should have been Wolverine) many years ago talking about 'The lost books of the Bible'. He said something about Jesus making idols and bringing them to life. His friend told him it was wrong so Jesus struck him down.
These books were translated from latin transcripts but I suppose the subject matter was not suitable for the final book.
These books were translated from latin transcripts but I suppose the subject matter was not suitable for the final book.
You conveniently moved this conversation to newfrontiers and away from scripture. My basis for criticising churches is not my own relation to newfrontiers but the word of God. If I found something heretical within the newfrontiers statement of faith or the practise of it, I'd bring it up, there'd be a debate about it and then, failing change, I'd leave the church.
Just from our conversation it is apparent who has the knowledge of scripture and who doesn't. My commitment is to Christ first, not newfrontiers. You'd do well to adopt the same approach. If not, carry on in your foolishness.
Newfrontiers does not believe in female leadership within the Church. if you read the introduction to newfrontiers on the website, it says that we are "complementarian" in our view of male and female. Different for a reason. We have not gone the way of the backslidden Church of England in implementing female pastors.
Is your church's complementarian position a strategic matter of style/governance, or do you believe such discrimination against women to be theologically necessary?
The Church is interested in what scripture has to tell us about the way church should be done, nev. Christian orthodoxy holds that women are not to lead congregations.
Oh I think you mentioned one of possibly two texts from the old testament talking about God being Jealous in the context of him being the only God with me countering with several texts including later ones from the New Testament that stated that God was infinitely merciful and then you seemed to be all out of argument so I kindly enquired about your church Herman. Get ready to leave your church Herman because anyone who doesn't agree with Terry becomes shunned, ignored, even asked to leave. You'll probably thank me for it. Newfrontiers is run from the top down, not bottom up, if you don't agree of course you'll leave!
So finally, can you admit that you have contradicted yourself with this Apostles matter and have thrown your toys out or shall we talk about God being merciful some more? Do you think you know any better about his mercy?
I think you forgot all about why you insulted me, two churches and several posters on here with your arrogance. I forgive you though. Go with God Herman.
You haven't done anything of the sort, oates. You brought up scriptures concerning God's goodness that I completely agree with. The simple fact is, God's mercy is realised at the place of the cross and that is how his infinite mercy is made known. Since you're arguing asuch a very strange line, unsubstantiated by any of the texts you bring up, are you a universalist, oates?
If you're going to claim a contradiction, you need to provide me with a link to the contradictory material.
I understand why the Catholic Church (which I think you rightly categorise as a cult) is opposed to the ordination of women, but I've never understood why some protestants still oppose it. What about the most important principle of protestantism, the doctrine of the universality of the priesthood? Does the word universal only apply to men?
You're being very silly Herman, perhaps you need to grow up. Then come back on here and be man enough to apologise for coming on here and being a know it all. The evidence of your contradiction is in your posts and on your website.
Obviously I know more about your church and its teachings then you do.
It also has, you know, slavery.
The priesthood is a different concept. You see, in the OT you had one high priest who would be allowed to go before the presence of God, behind the veil in the temple, once a year. With the curucifixion of Christ, the veil was torn and that separation between God and His people was ended. We are all priests in Christ because we all have access to then throne of God, by Christ's atoning sacrifice, which we did not have before. Christ is described in Hebrews as our forerunner.
Hebrews 6:13-20 "For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."
The priesthood of Rome is an unbiblical concept, which is why priest doesn't refer to people in positions of leadership within Christian orthodoxy.
Provide the link please, oates, and I'll discuss any contradictions with you.
Honestly Herman, you gave it to me yourself telling me that I should follow the links. I feel obliged to give you the same advice, follow the links on your own website, you know, the one you told me to look at rather than demonstrate your ignorance. Which I felt was a little rude btw but I forgive you.
I said that you could find the continuation of the article I provided for you in the links below. The part where it says (continued). You wanted to know about the newfrontiers "structure of governance" and so I gave you the newfrontiers' vision of an apostolic sphere straight from the horse's mouth. Apparently that's rude and now you refuse to quote or provide a link to the contradiction you think you've found between what I've said and the article I've provided. (I am aware there was more than one link at the bottom of that article. You're not asking me to search through every link to find a possible contradiction, are you?)