By all means continue Herman, far be it from me to suggest that perhaps you come across in a very different way to the one you may perceive. I don't question your faith, your beliefs or your confidence.
Good night.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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Good night.
I'd still like to know what you meant by saying your sister was caught up with my lot but she's out now. Who do you mean by "my lot"? And which lot do you belong to?
@oates @Herman Van Rompuy
I'd like to know what you think makes Christianity the 'correct' religion?, and also if you happened to be born into Christian families.
I'd like to know what you think makes Christianity the 'correct' religion?, and also if you happened to be born into Christian families.
I wasn't born into a Christian family. I was born into a very non-religious family and am the only follower of Christ in my family. I was previously an atheist. I posted this earlier, in response to another asking about a few of my reasons for belief in Christ (they are not exhaustive by any means):
Nah, it's bullshit. The Almighty Boobs on the other hand...
By 'your lot' I mean Newfrontiers. My lot are the CofE.
It depends what you mean by 'correct' SR. I'd like to believe that the God that the Muslims, the Jews and the Christians believe in is the same one. My faith says that you can only come to God through his son Jesus Christ, I'd like to hope that the Muslim faith and Judaism still have a way in somehow but my Church says that it is only through Christ. That troubles me I'm afraid to say but the voting's not all done yet. I was brought up in the CofE, towed the family line but left the church as a teenager and came to believe when I was in my late twenties.
Really liked your post, nothing to add, but you sound like a peaceful man.
People will tell you I can be grumpy sometimes Sherzad.
What voting are you referring to here, oates? And by Jews do you mean contemporary Jews (Talmudic Jews. There are of course messianic Jews who do believe in the same God) or the ancient Hebrews? If it's the former, they certainly don't believe in the same God, if it's the latter, they certainly did. Islam contradicts so many Biblical claims (including some very important ones about the Son of God) that it couldn't be possible to "vote" in favour of them following the same God.
I am sorry to hear that your sister left. Which church did she join when she left?
Well I think there's still time for God to change his mind Herman. There's still time for the muslims and the jews to change theirs. There's still a chance that the terms laid down in the Gospel have enough wriggle room in there for faiths that believe that Jesus is a prophet to their faiths, or any such combination even including that someone missed something out when they translated the scriptures. God surely loves ALL his people.
I'm glad my sister left, which church though I'm afraid isn't your business. Does it matter? Don't all Newfrontiers churches follow Terry Virgo's 'doctrine' from the top down?
Yeah, but your post was spot on.. Or is it because you are a Ex Tunbridge Wells resident that I found your post brilliant
You from Tunbridge Wells too?Yeah, but your post was spot on.. Or is it because you are a Ex Tunbridge Wells resident that I found your post brilliant
Yes I am.You from Tunbridge Wells too?
I don't agree with everything Terry Virgo ever taught and I've had debates with leaders within my church about Israel and a few other things. A few have changed their minds because of it. That's just part of a Spirit-led church life. We all see through a glass darkly. But we all agree on the essentials and even though I have some problems with elements of reformed theology, I am still very much "reformed".
I am afraid the Father is too jealous for the honour and glory of his Son to ever change his mind, oates. Think about what you're contemplating. Here is this God who shed his blood on the cross for you and me when we were enemies of God. People who hated and despised God. And knowing that such unmerited grace, knowing fully what he did and what it cost him, you wouldn't be jealous for him by affirming his atoning death on the cross but would rather say, perhaps there's another way in? It's like slapping him in the face. And for the Father to change his mind and say to the Son, sorry, change of plans. You know that thing about your atoning sacrifice where we agreed it was the only way and that you'd have a people in your own name for your honour and your glory, and that I'd make yours the only name under heaven and earth that could save and the name above all names? Change of plan. We're accepting everybody now because I love them too.
The reason the Father saw fit to crush the Son wasn't even primarily so that you and I could be saved, it was so that the Son would have all honour and glory and Lordship over heaven, earth and his own people.
The Bible says that those who reject the Son reject also the Father (John 2:23). Islam affirms that God has no son.
If you sincerely want all those Muslims and Jews to be saved, oates, the gospel is the only thing you can give them to that end, as it's the power of God unto salvation...
What about certain tribes that remain basically cut off from the world? Like those in the Amazonian rainforest? They have no chance of ever hearing about Jesus or understanding who he is supposed to be. So do they just go to hell because of that? Seems a bit harsh, they never even had a choice.
Hell will have all the fun people anyway by the sounds of things.
Well, there are similar questions about babies who die too young to have any concept of Christ and those who are aborted before they can leave the womb. The Christian position is interesting with regards to this. I don't know how familiar you are with the story of David and Bathsheba but after impregnating her and having Bathsheba's husband killed, David was brought to repentance by the Lord and was ultimately forgiven, but the child Bathsheba had died. And David says something very interesting. He says in 2 Samuel 12:23 "But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”
He appears to be saying that he will be reunited with his son in death. It's the most coherent interpretation of what David's saying in his time of mourning. He can't bring him back, the child won't return, but he will go to him. It's a an expectation of future personal reunion.
The only thing you can take away from that is that God is a just judge who can be trusted with cases like that. There are many stories of people without access to the gospel having dreams about Jesus and being born again by these direct encounters with Christ. You certainly can't make a case for all the most remote tribes of man going to hell, anyway.
But there's an underlying assumption to your question which is equally interesting. The disciples of Christ were commissioned to take the gospel to every nation and tongue but we need to remember that gospel is a mercy to man. It's not God's obligation to rescue every sinner on the planet. That would make grace compulsory and then grace couldn't be grace. Grace and mercy are unmerited. Once you start assuming God has an obligation to man you take on a kind of humanism.
That's just silly then, he places an obligation on every man/woman/child that can't possibly be met in some circumstances. Which seems rather unjust.
I bet every single person who has dreamt about Jesus, would have had some idea of who he was though.
If God doesn't exist to rescue sinners then what fecking use is he?
No. I gave the example of David's son to demonstrate that's not the case. The point is that a Christian cannot tell you who is in hell and who isn't. For all I know there are countless people who seemed to be unbelievers until their deathbed but who repented on their dying breath. Similarly, I can't tell you about which remote tribes people would go to heaven or hell. Perhaps some are so wicked God doesn't give them the gospel in judgement? How would anybody know that? And if that was the case, what issue could you take with God, who knows the heart of every individual on the planet?
Okay I just read that story about David. It's beyond stupid. So God killed the child? Wut.
It doesn't even say the baby went to heaven, David just presumed that.
It doesn't even say the baby went to heaven, David just presumed that.
No, David knew that because he understood something about God's grace that you don't. David knew that God is a just judge. A bit like Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego who said in Daniel 3:17 "If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
God did indeed deliver them from the giant furnace (he was even in there with them causing Nebuchadnezzar to comment on the fourth person in there with them protecting them from the fire). But their point was that either way they were going to follow the just and holy God they knew. That's faith.
But, if David was wrong about the destination of his son, then why would it be included in the Biblical text without something to correct his wrong asusmption? It doesn't seem to me that David was wrong.
So David, who murdered a man just because he wanted to shag his wife, was closer to God than I am. I think I'm okay with that.
Another humanist assumption. God exists to rescue the creation? That's a screwed up order. The creation exists for the glory of God. You exist for God's glory. Whether that's in his salvation of your soul or in rightful judgement of your wickedness. Either way he gets all the glory.
Jesus said in Luke 7:43-47 "And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.” “A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
But you are self righteous and think you should somehow be more worthy in God's sight than David. David isn't in heaven because he was a good man but because he was a man broken by his sin and received the forgiveness of God, which you reject.
"You exist for God's glory"
Is there anything I can do to reduce God's glory? Or is this game rigged?
"You exist for God's glory"
Is there anything I can do to reduce God's glory? Or is this game rigged?
The game's as rigged as a game can be because God is sovereign. There's certainly nothing you can try that's worse than what was done to the Son of God but look at the outcome of that.
So if the Game is rigged because god is all powerful, then why are you so worried about Satan?
Satan's wicked intentions are his own, but God uses them to bring about his own purpose. God works all things together for good. Must be frustrating for Satan to be a rebel but only knock each nail into his own coffin, so to speak.
And all it took was the death of his innocent child, who may or may not be in heaven. God is a bit of a spiteful idiot, I suspect. A woman has her husband murdered, is then taken against her will and has the child of the man who made her a widower, then her child is murdered by God all so that David can receive forgiveness? She got a rough deal!
Anyway, I can't reject something I don't believe in. To me it doesn't exist so there is no question of acceptance or rejection.
Bizarre how you just make up the details of the story. Bathsheba didn't have a rough deal at all. It was her son, Solomon, who became King after David and Bathsheba was guilty of adultery too. She is also certainly in heaven. I'd hardly call any of these rough deals.
But Satan has been being a rebel for millennia. Doesn't the fact that he is (apparently) still around suggest that god struggles to finish the job?
herman if the devil is evil how come he punishes bad people
I skimmed through it because it is rather boring. I read on to the bit were some guy had a weird fetish to eat bread out of a girl's hand and then he raped her instead.
What if God is Satan and the true test is rejecting the reward of an everlasting blissful afterlife by ignoring the promises Satan makes in the Bible? And instead you just live life as a kind human being because you do not need nor expect such a reward.
It got really weird, I think they were brother and sister and some random guy was encouraging him to seduce her. Even David was involved, although this isn't surprising as David seems to be all over the place morally speaking. Very strange.
Actually wait, David got mad in the end so he did care. Sorry David.
No, just that the fullness of his Church hasn't come in yet. I wasn't around 25.6 years ago, for example.