You misunderstood me, mate.
I have no doubt that we will become competitive again, just not on the same level of domination that we experienced during SAF's reign. I can see us winning a league title in the next 2-3 seasons.
Really - why did so many of you think Mourinho was better than LVG?
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You misunderstood me, mate.
I have no doubt that we will become competitive again, just not on the same level of domination that we experienced during SAF's reign. I can see us winning a league title in the next 2-3 seasons.
Pretty sure hes had a run of games, and been poor.
I do agree though we need him firing to stand a chance
He doesn't solve our problems, he brings something to the team but we still lack the control that Scholes or Carrick brings and we are partially paying that deficiency. And you can't have an issue with signings that haven't play yet and without having an idea about how the manager is going to use them.
LVG had to go, we made sure of that by crying about it daily. If Mourinho goes we'll probably do worse. One of the reasons why we should stop this never ending "it's the manager" rhetoric.
Very good post finneh. Good posts from Invictus too.
Zlatan hasn't delivered and that affects the whole team. Just look at Spurs without Kane, similar situation.
I'd say you guys definitely play better football than you did under Van Gaal and Mourinho isn't at fault for your goal draught, attackers simply need to get their act together.
I am, however, surprised how bad you looked against the top teams, 2 of 12 points against the top 4 is simply shocking - for a big game specialist like Mourinho I expected more. He got the tactics wrong against City and Chelsea, made wrong decisions after you took the lead against Arsenal and even against Liverpool you could've not complained if you lost (although the setup was spot on in that match).
So overall, ups and downs, I'd wait a few more months for further evaluations, especially after we've seen how United will do in the cup competitions.
Edit: It also has to be noticed how crazy consistent the top 4 have been this year so far. Has it ever happened that 3 teams had 30+ points after 13 games? Leicester, who were already first last year at this point, would've been 5th this year with the same amount of points+gd. That's also a factor why United look this far off.
I am, however, surprised how bad you looked against the top teams, 2 of 12 points against the top 4 is simply shocking - for a big game specialist like Mourinho I expected more. He got the tactics wrong against City and Chelsea, made wrong decisions after you took the lead against Arsenal and even against Liverpool you could've not complained if you lost (although the setup was spot on in that match).
So overall, ups and downs, I'd wait a few more months for further evaluations, especially after we've seen how United will do in the cup competitions.
Edit: It also has to be noticed how crazy consistent the top 4 have been this year so far. Has it ever happened that 3 teams had 30+ points after 13 games? Leicester, who were already first last year at this point, would've been 5th this year with the same amount of points+gd. That's also a factor why United look this far off.
There's no need to blame anyone yet, IMO. We are becoming exactly what we criticized opposition supporters for: with our predisposition for snap decisions and pointing fingers right off the bat - ready to allocate blame as we deem fit within months, without considering the complexities of a manager who is at the nadir of his career taking over a club that is at its lowest point in about three decades. We have a litany of issues, still: the morale has been thoroughly shattered ever since Fergie left, there's been substantial experience/talent drain, previous managers bought players that fit their schemes, a lot of the the current squad isn't fit to play for United in anything but a minor role (not their fault that we bought them), we have young talents or old greats but not a lot of consistent performers in their peak - delivering on a consistently good basis, Mourinho has committed several unforced errors of his own - spanning from tactical naïveté to persistent selection mistakes and overestimating the strength of this squad in the summer, etc etc. All these issues cannot possibly be resolved in a few months, and there will be more mistakes along the way, since it's not a perfect theoratical process but one entrenched in the real world.
Organic regrowth takes time, even for a supposed quick-fix manager like Mourinho, and until we give either him or some other manager the time and support to right the ship, instead of constantly harping on the mistakes, United cannot progress in the right direction (and stay there - not be a blip, since Leicester City and Leipzig are becoming the new metric to aspire to in terms of title-winning narrative). For reference, there was very little blatantly anti-LVG narrative at this point in the 2014 season - even though we'd suffered defeats like 0-4 to MK Dons and 3-5 to Leicester, had broken the league record for Di María, loaned Falcao, signed Ander, and - we didn't have the distraction of the Europa League. For the sake of balance, LVG didn't have time to recuperate after he World Cup, but let's reflect upon the staunch opposition to Mourinho - which is gathering steam at a brisk pace within the fanbase. A lot of this can be traced back to the unwillingness of a faction of our supportbase to grant him a basic blank slate. He's working from a deficit in the eyes of some, and as soon as there's a hint of a setback, the tongues start wagging maniacally - with all the 'he's destroying our all aconquering youth', 'he's so defensive', 'he's such a moaner' commentary.
It's not an excuse, really, just something to qualify the lack of points of the board with. We are undoubtedly bad at killing games off in terms of goals and points, no one is arguing against that - since points and goals can be quantified, and there's a real risk of falling waaay behind the pace-setters by the half-season mark, but there's a sense of things starting to fall into place, and a discernible pattern of us being only a few pieces and tweaks away from a consistent winning run. That fills a lot of supporters with hope, in a way the 'false dawns' didn't. Whether it comes to fruition is a a separate issue, though.
You can always question the manager, TBH. But the thing is - we have 19 year old Rashford, an out of sorts Rooney, and 35 year old Zlatan to fill in as the starting 9. Contrast that with say Agüero at City or Costa at Chelsea or even Kane at Tottenham (strikers who are close to their peak), and it's easy to identify some of our problems in attack. The manager can build a stricture, but the players have to fulfill their roles. And we just don't have the personnel to do that consistently in the 9 position. Put Aubameyang in place of those 3, and we'd probably have 8 more points from the last 4 league games, and would be 3 points off the league leaders. It's also the manager's fault for overestimating our strength in the position, but we have to consider the circumstances of the market, too - because Ibrahimović was close to the best we could get. And this ties in with the point of us being a few pieces and tweaks away from having a very competitive team, because the tactical structure is sound (for the most part), and we are creating a lot of chances every game (stemming from that coherent structure).
That's an absolutely fair point. eg. What really bothered me was the way we used Pogba at the start of the season, and the reluctance to use the heartbeat of our team for the past 6+ years - Carrick. Some of our setups haven't been good, and you get the sense that we still haven't found balance within the team, but hopefully - he'll learn the strength of current personnel and the way forward from that mess. Or maybe strengthen certain positions where we're lacking.
This kinda circles back to the same argument - while the squad isn't horrendous as a whole, we're fundamentally weak at crucial positions - foremost amongst them, the 9 - which is contributing heavily to the scoring woes. Contrast that with what Pep inherited in Sergio, or Conte in Costa. There's little doubt that those managers have done a better transition job, but they also had a fundamental impact player (or two) from the get go. Meanwhile, we've transitioned from Rooney and Persie and Welbeck and Chicharito and Falcao, etc etc. It's quite similar to what Mourinho inherited at Chelsea with Torres and Ba, and all the struggles with Eto'o, Drogba. But once he got that impact player (like Drogba in Chelsea I, Milito at Internazionale), they won the league almost at a canter.
EDIT: Caf's twitter page:
José is one of the best (or maybe even the best) at overhauling squads within a very short timeframe.
And that's a brilliant quality for current United, because he'll have time to assess his players over the course of the season, and be ruthless in the market to correct those issues and jettison the mediocre talent we've acquired in hordes. He just needs more time to address that.
Nowhere did I say Mourinho should be sacked. I pointed out that some were opposed to him ever being considered Manchester United's Manager for a number of reasons which are discussed elsewhere in past threads, and that he is not doing much to change our minds.
The paranoia about 'agendas' is just that. This is the red caf where United fans can give their opinions whether they are agreed with or not. Nobody on the caf should apologise for not trusting Mourinho to do what he has been employed to do - to take United back to the top irrespective of whether that will be this season or the next or the season after.
Fascinating that you and a few others feel you can make such sweeping generalisations that those who don't believe Mourinho is the right person for this special job "dont (sic) care about the club". That says something (and it's not positive) about you and them.
'Agendas' were obvious when some United supporters though it was fine to try and demean Louis Van Gaal during the successful FA Cup run and trophy winning Final by booing and chanting insults. Those actions display agendas, not a difference of opinion about the current Manager who has been viewed by some United fans since Sir Alex's time as unsuitable for the job of Manchester United Manager.
And no, it doesn't make me or others happy in any way to have the opinion that those United supporters insulting Louis VG will likely find that Mourinho won't be delivering any silverware over a two year period.
I never wanted Mou in the first place, but it has to be said that our style is pretty good. We are playing way better than last couple of seasons and certainly not playing the defensive crap that Mou is famous for, although the latter point is being helped by the fact that we are struggling to score and hence hardly ever take the lead to sit back and defend.
But, after spending 150m+ this season, how much have we improved. He said he wanted 4 players, he got them, but we are no closer to finishing in top 4 than we were last season. Our squad has a cost of 400m plus and this after considering that a couple of our players are youth products, Ibra came for free, etc.
I generally prefer style over results as I believe if you play the right way, results will come, but if you're spending such amounts of money, results gain priority and you should be getting those results from the get-go, especially against lower opposition.
And don't say that we've been unlucky or strikers aren't finishing. Well, Ibra is a Mou signing. He knew his strengths and weaknesses when he signed him.
But, after spending 150m+ this season, how much have we improved. He said he wanted 4 players, he got them, but we are no closer to finishing in top 4 than we were last season. Our squad has a cost of 400m plus and this after considering that a couple of our players are youth products, Ibra came for free, etc.
I generally prefer style over results as I believe if you play the right way, results will come, but if you're spending such amounts of money, results gain priority and you should be getting those results from the get-go, especially against lower opposition.
And don't say that we've been unlucky or strikers aren't finishing. Well, Ibra is a Mou signing. He knew his strengths and weaknesses when he signed him.
LvG was adamant that you can't change or substantially impact the course of a game of football once it has kicked of, and thus, decided to sit on his ass for his entire managerial career expect for that one golden moment. That's one pretty fecking big reason.
Threadban OP.
Such a thread is pointless given that he is now our manager. What do you suggest is the solution then?
Discussing why he isn't going to be a good appointment is pointless when he already is our manager. The whole 'I told you so' aspect only becomes valid if Mourinho does actually fail, which he hasn't yet.
Totally agree, that is why it is strange that certain people try to justify Jose by bringing LVG into the equation.
Talk of Jose's future is, of course, absurd but I'm more concerned about the contagion spreading in the next two league games, against Everton and Spurs.
I didn't think we'd beat West Ham so these two matches do have a whiff of sulphur about them going into the Christmas programme.
It's not defeatist to talk like this. We didn't think it could happen to Mourinho last year - but it did. He knows what can happen once the paronia and anxiety set in. It can be all over in the blink of an eye if results spiral out of control.
We desperately need a Premier League win soon - let's just hope we're not in mid-table before we get it.
I didn't think we'd beat West Ham so these two matches do have a whiff of sulphur about them going into the Christmas programme.
It's not defeatist to talk like this. We didn't think it could happen to Mourinho last year - but it did. He knows what can happen once the paronia and anxiety set in. It can be all over in the blink of an eye if results spiral out of control.
We desperately need a Premier League win soon - let's just hope we're not in mid-table before we get it.
I feel like some people are starting to forget how dire watching us last season was at times under LVG. The football was genuinely atrocious and our lack of goals was beyond embarrassing.
Whether Mourinho will prove to be much better or a success remains to be seen, but for our football to be as bad as it was last year would take a further drop.
Whether Mourinho will prove to be much better or a success remains to be seen, but for our football to be as bad as it was last year would take a further drop.
I actually enjoy watching the games this season. We're actually playing football and creating chances rather than just playing it sideways then passing back to the goalkeeper and hoping for a draw.
It's not so much a win we need as opposed to a proper run. We're undoubtedly capable of winning games and have done so (even if very sparsely), but since our good start to the season we've been hopeless at actually achieving a semblance of consistent form: any good results or performances where we've looked more confident or on the up, have been followed by disappointment afterwards. We need to hit a good run.
Cheers.
I really want to be convinced by Jose in all honesty but it's just hope at the moment. Another fear I had was that Jose will have come into the job with some underlying pressure after the disaster at Chelsea. I was worried that rather than coming with a clear head, there'll be be a bit of trying to prove himself while at United which is not healthy. Add that to the fact that his specialty is immediate success, I worry that Jose might just capitulate if things don't go well this season.
The perils of being a United fan, eh?
LVG killed every ounce of excitement for me. I at least enjoy watching us play this season, even if it has been incredibly frustrating at times. I actually see progress being made.
Rooney says he has nothing to prove - bad
Mourinho trying to prove himself - also bad.
I'm sure it's a totally different situation blah blah blah.
Don't really know what you're on about. Much prefer watching united under mourinho, and he isn't an annoying cnut either.
The football is marginally better, yes but Mourinho isn't an annoying Cnut? Seriously?
Kind of agree, but we can't go on a run without winning a PL game, which at present looks hazardous with the matches we have coming up. The end of the EL group stage will help massively, but three points couldn't come too soon for us. I just can't see it at Everton but, maybe, Spurs will be the turning point for us.
I've never been a fan of Mourinho, and some aspects of his management are annoying. Such as his insistence on playing a useless striker game after game whilst dropping anyone else who plays badly for 5 minutes.
But does anyone seriously watch our games this season and NOT think they're an improvement on the last two years? I don't think it's possible to come to this conclusion without some form of bias...or unless you just ignore the games themselves and look only at results.
We fail to win games this season because we miss easy chances. Last two years we failed to win games because we wouldn't create a single chance, or because we'd spend 90% of the game hoofing the ball to Fellaini, or because we'd get outplayed in every area of the pitch, by West Brom. In fact even when we did win it was tedious.
But does anyone seriously watch our games this season and NOT think they're an improvement on the last two years? I don't think it's possible to come to this conclusion without some form of bias...or unless you just ignore the games themselves and look only at results.
We fail to win games this season because we miss easy chances. Last two years we failed to win games because we wouldn't create a single chance, or because we'd spend 90% of the game hoofing the ball to Fellaini, or because we'd get outplayed in every area of the pitch, by West Brom. In fact even when we did win it was tedious.
Yeah we are much better, and yet not, somehow.
Jose will get it right .In my opinion he inherited the worst united squad for decades .LVG bought a bunch of run of the mill squad players ( plus a punt on Martial ) and tried to turn us into a hard to beat team with the emphasis on not losing rather than winning .
The dross he bought was just unbelievable , Darmian , Schneiderlin, Rojo,Schweinsteiger , Blind , Depay .Rooney was going to be his " centre forward " and he ended up playing in midfield . Martial was " not for him but for the future " then played virtually every game and we are now seeing the results of too many games too soon ( very very real danger that the same will happen to Rashford )
jose brought in 4 players .Zlatan , not delivering as many goals as we expected but still our top scorer and the only one of our players who looks likely to score . Pogba showing his class in patches but nobody doubts he will be one of the top players in the world given time . Bailly looks like a fantastic prospect and we've really missed him since his injury .Mikhi a mystery to us all but every chance he will come good
We acquired 4 we needed 8 at least ,the team are paying far better football and at least creating chances , the goals will come I honestly believe that soon someone will get a right battering from us and then we will be on a roll .
The knives are out for him in one paper today it mentioned his "psychotic behaviour " on the touch line ( he kicked a water bottle !!!! ) .The press are a disgrace and can't wait to demonise him what they don't seem to realise is that once he has finally gone the game will be all the poorer .
Remember Ronny he was a one trick pony , a show off , a big head , a diver a poser a show pony He only got the credit he deserved when he left the prem and England .Cantona when he kicked the foul mouthed yob ....Hang him ! Lock him up and throw away the key ! Ban him for life ! The press stuck every knife possible into him and my god wasn't football duller without him .
For one I was happy to see mourinho react on the touch line , kick the water bottle show his anger and passion rather that than sit motionless in the stands game after game like flat face .
Wow I'm glad that's off my chest !!!
The dross he bought was just unbelievable , Darmian , Schneiderlin, Rojo,Schweinsteiger , Blind , Depay .Rooney was going to be his " centre forward " and he ended up playing in midfield . Martial was " not for him but for the future " then played virtually every game and we are now seeing the results of too many games too soon ( very very real danger that the same will happen to Rashford )
jose brought in 4 players .Zlatan , not delivering as many goals as we expected but still our top scorer and the only one of our players who looks likely to score . Pogba showing his class in patches but nobody doubts he will be one of the top players in the world given time . Bailly looks like a fantastic prospect and we've really missed him since his injury .Mikhi a mystery to us all but every chance he will come good
We acquired 4 we needed 8 at least ,the team are paying far better football and at least creating chances , the goals will come I honestly believe that soon someone will get a right battering from us and then we will be on a roll .
The knives are out for him in one paper today it mentioned his "psychotic behaviour " on the touch line ( he kicked a water bottle !!!! ) .The press are a disgrace and can't wait to demonise him what they don't seem to realise is that once he has finally gone the game will be all the poorer .
Remember Ronny he was a one trick pony , a show off , a big head , a diver a poser a show pony He only got the credit he deserved when he left the prem and England .Cantona when he kicked the foul mouthed yob ....Hang him ! Lock him up and throw away the key ! Ban him for life ! The press stuck every knife possible into him and my god wasn't football duller without him .
For one I was happy to see mourinho react on the touch line , kick the water bottle show his anger and passion rather that than sit motionless in the stands game after game like flat face .
Wow I'm glad that's off my chest !!!
feck off. It's abundantly clear that Jose is better than LvG. The team doesn't spend 88 minutes of every match passing it sideways...sorry, "probing", actually looks creative and like they might score goals. Players are not constrained by some ridiculous abstract philosophy and the manager doesn't spend the ninety sitting with his feet up pretending to take notes. It's not even a contest, despite results being a bit frustrating.
I think this bit is key.
Each part of the team is important and (maybe with the exception of goalkeeper), every element of our team could be improved, but a midfielder who dictates tempo and links things up is critical to a team.
We've been fortunate (spoiled) with midfielders over the last 20+ years ...... I wish we'd broken the bank for Kroos, he'd have made a huge difference.
Very good post.
Despite the fact i don't mind Van Gaal, and really dislike Moyes it has to be said this is true to an extent.
Awful, awful squad building. He was given too much leeway. Too many players shouldn't were allowed to leave too quickly and too many brought in. The success rate of our signings under LVG leads me to believe not much homework was done on them and we just employed a scatter gun approach of signing anyone who happened to be available.
I'm enjoying football after a long time again. I will give the manager time he needs if this prolongs. Don't care about how we're doing in the table for the first season.
It is one of the reasons his fans like him but also one of the reasons he has so many critics. His fans will argue that this makes him flexible and capable of adapting his game without being rigid. This is definitely a valid argument which in my view played a big part in his success. My point all along about him however has been that this is not enough for big clubs. The approach of adapting to your opponent and making sure you react to them is something laudable when you are an underdog financially or status wise which is why I very much liked and admired his Porto, Inter the same I do with Simeone's Atlético. Big clubs who are the richest and biggest cannot justify playing like that however. They can't just win, they need to win and do it with the ego of imposing their game whatever that is. This in my view is why he found it difficult at Real. It worked in the beginning because they indeed were underdogs to Barcelona but once that was overcome, he couldn't keep doing his "let's stick it up to them" mindset. It simply felt weird that he was casting and setting up players like Ronaldo, Özil, Ramos and co as underdogs and it did not work ultimately. Now people can argue that we are in the same position as Real were back then when they hired him, if not worse. This is also a good point but whereas I can understand this view and accept that we need to set our ego aside, it still doesn't sit right that we are the biggest spenders in the league with the biggest brand name whilst still having to play any half decent team the way mid table teams play us.
I dont believe theres yet another VG thread. Hes gone it doesnt matter how much you go on hes not coming back. Whether Mourinhos better or worse it makes not a jot of difference hes the manager now. Close this down FFS
I just think that judging a manager after 13 matches is fundamentally daft.
Not when it comes to press conferences, particularly post match. LVG did my head in. The players seemed fed up under him. I just feel it's a matter of time before we start playing really, really well.
Absolutely right but the vultures were circling before we kicked a ball. Sadly it's a reflection of society where we no longer have the patience to fix things, they simply just throw them away and start again....
Under this manager the football is beginning to be very watchable - he must be given at least three years to get Utd back on track - performances are improving and results will follow.
Any body that thinks that we haven't progressed from last season needs to get their eyes checked
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