Well said, basically sums up my thoughts.
Really - why did so many of you think Mourinho was better than LVG?
- Thread starter ryansgirl
- Start date
- Status
Well said, basically sums up my thoughts.
Obviously I don't think we should sack Mourinho at this stage but the way some posters have been defending his failure so far is so cringy.
Please - stop making sense.
It's not allowed apparently in this new style redcafe where there seems to be a trend of screaming at people who have different opinions or most laughable, calling for threads to be locked because you, I and others aren't parroting the pro-Mourinho line.The same posters don't get that some of us said Mourinho was not the saviour and wouldn't be so good for United. Before Louis VG was even appointed some of us had that opinion and we don't mind keeping it.
I never expected instant success from Mourinho because I never thought he had the character and footballing philosophy to manage Manchester United. I still don't think he has especially given the childish episodes of being banned from the touchline twice in the short time he has been managing United.
Good post as always
Not sure if cherry picking stats is helping to prove your point. Compared to last season your conversion rate took a huge nose dive, and you're conceding more goals. You've already played the Top4 you are chasing, and got 2 out of 12 pts against them. So it is pretty obvious that so far, you have been performing worse where it matters, despite winning the transfer window and hiring a "proven winner" as the manager.
At this point in time, another season with EL football seems to be the most likely outcome, which certainly doesn't meet the expectations given the investments and ambitions of a club of Utd's caliber.
I agree, JM should be given more time, if for the sheer lack of alternatives only. But anyone suggesting JM has delivered the goods so far suffers from serious delusion, if you ask me.
Mourinho has been underperforming so far, there's hardly a way of denying that.
Let's sack the mad one and appoint Eddie Howe before Christmas. Lol...
Exactly but do be careful - some of the more frail posters are taking this all so personally.
People are allowed not to be fond of other people, or not? In my case, I dislike Mourinho, no amount of winning will change that. I'd like to believe I'm patient because I'm hoping he changes some things, but I'm not willing to pull a blindfold on and not mention what seem to be issues for me with his management.
The other way round, I believed Moyes and LvG would not last simply because of the position/status they gave Rooney, yet I tried to see the positives and hoped for the best, just like now.
For instance, you believe the midfield is rock-solid, I don't: Pogba has been improving notably in defense and positioning, but he still far from the complete item. I love Herrera and am pleased with the importance he has taken, but so far only his work-rate is consistent not the quality of his passing. Finally I don't know who our defensive midfielder is? (assuming we are playing 3 in the middle) Is Carrick now our defensive mid?
Moyes delivered an atrocious brand of football and addressed none of our weaknesses in the transfer window.
That's his fault.
Any fool (well seemingly not with some of you lot) can see we are much more pleasant on the eye under Jose with a more capable squad. He's also introduced a world class midfielder, a superb centre half, a legendary striker and a creative winger. All areas the Caf wanted us to look at.
He's done 90 percent of what you lot wanted him to do. Even dropping Rooney, yet you blame the man for everything.
This place is full of agendas.
It does. The little spoilt brats. I'd much sooner they did one from my club rather than Mourinho.
They're not that bad ! Just concerned as anyone would be in current situation... it's just bringing up LvG not doing them any favours in terms of club's progress.
All I'm saying is let's just wait before sharpening the knives and the pitchforks. LVG belongs to the past now.
Nice straw man.
Literally not one person is claiming he's delivered the goods so far. A lot of people think we're a lot better to watch than under Van Gaal but that's a very low bar. The most optimistic consensus seems to be that he/we have been disappointing so far but there are signs of progress. That's a long fecking way short of "delivering the goods".
Just because it happened before doesn't mean it is an automatic law of nature. Mourinho was a proven winner before, transforming his teams into tough teams to beat. Well things have changed and football has evolved, LVG was completely past it and just because he left some kinda mythical heritage at his previous clubs, doesn't he was gonna do that at Man Utd.
No one suggested that Mourinho has delivered the goods, mate, and he has admittedly made several bad decisions over the course of the current season. I'm not a bigot, and you'll find that Louis had full support until the 2nd half of last season, for what it's worth. And it wasn't 'cheery picking' of stats to paint a more optimistic picture per se, just a minor illustration of how a fair bit of progress is being made in terms of performance - with performance based stats backing up some of that progress. If you go back and rewatch a standard Van Gaal game at United, and then compare it with an equivalent one under Mourinho - the difference is stark as can be, so the improvement bears proof in terms of actual football, too.
We've been worse in terms of results and putting points on the board (which tallies with your first paragraph), there's no arguing against that; and in a sense - results are all that really matter in commercial sport, especially the '6 pointers' against the big teams. But signs of monthly progress in terms of playing style and cohesion can't be ignored - which is where the real thrust of the post lied. We looked eminently monotonous and labored under Louis, but now the excitement of atleast watching United games without wanting to gouge your eyes out is back - and that's a major relief (for now).
There can be a dissonance between performances and results for the short term (right now), but in terms of the law of averages - soon they will catch up to the type of football we're playing. We'll just have to weather the storm till then. Maybe another season in the EL, like you mentioned, or worst case scenario - no European football at all. But, the problems with the team are easy to identify - in terms of finding the fix. With a lot of them being more personnel related than some layered ideological flaw (which is where Louis stumbled, IMO).
The likelihood of United ever returning to the glory days we experienced under SAF is just about slim to none I'm afraid, regardless of who is manager.
I agree that we are showing clear progress in terms of style and general attractiveness of our game but the bolded part is problematic for me because he brought an expensive midfielders that doesn't fix our midfield problems, he brought a legendary striker that doesn't fix our finishing problems, he brought a creative winger that he doesn't use and finally Bailly is great.
So, our game aesthetically improved from the metaphorical torture that LVG was inflicting to the fans but Mourinho replaced said torture with a less efficient and as frustrating game while spending a lot.
I'm willing to give him time, that's not even a question, but he needs to pull his fingers and take better decisions in terms of transfers and team selection.
Now thats just plain defeatist.
What were Juve's chances after the fixing scandle, or post Pep Barca?
We are simply "too big" to at least not get back to the "top table". Will we ever have such a long run as undisputed as top dogs again (aside 03-06), probably not but to suggest we will never ever compete again "regardless of manager" is frankly, crazy.
We are creating enough chances to win games and the opposition are getting far fewer. The players are letting the manager down by bottling it in front of goal. It's that simple.
Contrast to the boring few chances we created under the last managers and our goal keeper being worked constantly by the opposition.
Contrast to the boring few chances we created under the last managers and our goal keeper being worked constantly by the opposition.
He didn't say we'd never "compete again", but that we wouldn't ever go back to the glory days. 13 titles in 21 years (plus two Champions Leagues and four FA Cups ) is quite insane anyway
Plain as day that we look way more cohesive as a unit under Jose. Ok results have been poor but in terms of performance levels, night and day with what was being served up under LVG.
The manager is letting the fans down by not choosing his best finisher (Martial) and making bizarre decisions like Darmian ahead of Blind. Taking off Mata etc..
If LVG had Pogba, our football would have been a similar quality to Mourinho's but with better results.
It is not that simple. I think most critics of Jose's appointment (including myself) were concerned he will not promote our young talents, which he didn't really until now, and his character, which tends to eventually destroy everything around him.
However, football and performance wise, there is no comparison whatsoever. I have no idea what we were playing under LVG, but it most definitely wasn't football. We used to finish games with 1-2 shots at goal. This year we are playing football, and actually mostly entertaining football. True, the results are not as expected, but there is no doubt we should have won our last 4 home games. 37 shots on goal against Burnley, that is the equivalent of almost all of last season...
However, football and performance wise, there is no comparison whatsoever. I have no idea what we were playing under LVG, but it most definitely wasn't football. We used to finish games with 1-2 shots at goal. This year we are playing football, and actually mostly entertaining football. True, the results are not as expected, but there is no doubt we should have won our last 4 home games. 37 shots on goal against Burnley, that is the equivalent of almost all of last season...
Maybe it's just me, but I'm actually very happy with our progress so far. And that's the key word, progress.
Under Van Gaal I never knew what we were working towards, when we went on that run to clinch top4 in his first season, I thought that was the football we would be expected to play and that we had clicked. The second season was just false dawn after false dawn, and we never seemed to improve our play as the season went along.
This season under Jose I can see a world of difference from the start of the season to now. Ironically we were gaining points when playing poorly but right now we are playing some really really nice football. That's me happy. I wanted attacking football and I'm happy that we are getting it. We can improve of course, and do have plenty of room for improvement, but I can see that we are indeed getting better at dominating games.
The results are shite and for me the real problem is somewhat Ibra but mostly the goals from our wing positions. Rashford, Martial and Lingard are 3 very young players and are going to dip in and out of form. We don't have a reliable and consistent source of goals from the wing. Mkhi has just not played enough. In terms of our strikers Ibra scores goals but wastes many chances also, he should have had at least 4/5 braces by now and at least 1 hat trick.
If Rashford scored that 1v1 chance yesterday which came not long after Ibra scored, it would've been bang bang 2-1 and we're on top. Goals change games and the lack of them is what is keeping our opponents in the games against us. There's no real deep underlying issue, it literally is we don't have enough quality on attack. We desperately need Martial to fire, and Mkhi to settle and start firing also. I think central midfield contribution to goals is adequate so far.
I'd expect Jose to sign a CB and one attacking player in Jan.
Under Van Gaal I never knew what we were working towards, when we went on that run to clinch top4 in his first season, I thought that was the football we would be expected to play and that we had clicked. The second season was just false dawn after false dawn, and we never seemed to improve our play as the season went along.
This season under Jose I can see a world of difference from the start of the season to now. Ironically we were gaining points when playing poorly but right now we are playing some really really nice football. That's me happy. I wanted attacking football and I'm happy that we are getting it. We can improve of course, and do have plenty of room for improvement, but I can see that we are indeed getting better at dominating games.
The results are shite and for me the real problem is somewhat Ibra but mostly the goals from our wing positions. Rashford, Martial and Lingard are 3 very young players and are going to dip in and out of form. We don't have a reliable and consistent source of goals from the wing. Mkhi has just not played enough. In terms of our strikers Ibra scores goals but wastes many chances also, he should have had at least 4/5 braces by now and at least 1 hat trick.
If Rashford scored that 1v1 chance yesterday which came not long after Ibra scored, it would've been bang bang 2-1 and we're on top. Goals change games and the lack of them is what is keeping our opponents in the games against us. There's no real deep underlying issue, it literally is we don't have enough quality on attack. We desperately need Martial to fire, and Mkhi to settle and start firing also. I think central midfield contribution to goals is adequate so far.
I'd expect Jose to sign a CB and one attacking player in Jan.
Thank you for this post @Invictus . An insightful post from the other side.
I don't think anyone is sharpening the knives for Jose and I suppose the over reaction is due to frustration really. I am not a fan of Jose at all, but he is the manager of Manchester United and thus get's my support. But, the truth as things stands is that he has been disappointing IMO. The general feeling is that Jose should be absolved of every blame and all the blame should fall on the players. This is what really gets to me. The players should share some stick, rightfully but at what point do we point fingers at the manager?
The main excuse is that we are playing better than under the previous manager. But should that really be an excuse given that he has a "world class" pedigree, had 6 months to asses the situation, had a ton of money to spend and he was fully satisfied with his business, and has a vast knowledge of the league.
Another is that we simply are not just scoring and it's not Jose's that is on the pitch. My question is how long this go on for before we question the manager in this regard? All football managers make this excuse but at some point it needs to become their responsibility to sort it out. If a team is scoring freely, credit goes to the manger for setting them up well. The same should also be in this case when the team isn't.
Many of his team selections have been bizarre, the same goes for the tactics and substitution. Honestly, if I never knew that Jose had a reputation I would have said that the guy is clueless most times.
His constant attention he is getting is making things more difficult. We don't need our manager to be in the headlines for getting sent off to the stands more times than Fellaini has been sent off, or ranting about players' bravery after a win.
My point in whole is that while the squad needs beefing up, it is not as bad many people are suggesting and it is the manager's job to get the best out of the players at his disposal. While I agree a bit more patience is needed but I must confess that all the fears that I had before we appointed him have all been realized so far.
Other than that we are playing better, which is the minimum requirement given the time and money he had, if the season ended today he has been a failure IMO. But it's a long season, let's hope!
Martial has been shit so far, and Mata often disappears.
If LVG had Pogba he might have sold him, as he did with Nani and Di Maria. You never know.
I was totally on board with Van Gaal leaving. It really seemed like the dressing room wasn't responding to him.
However there's no doubt to me that despite the change in play, the results under Mourinho are worse. Not just worse but unlike Van Gaal, we don't even beat the big teams to keep our reputation somewhat.
However there's no doubt to me that despite the change in play, the results under Mourinho are worse. Not just worse but unlike Van Gaal, we don't even beat the big teams to keep our reputation somewhat.
Precisely this. Might as well just say Moyes would have won the CL if he had been given more time. Absolute garbage post.
Agreed, some folks in here dont care about the club, just the agenda they wish to advance.
In all honesty mate we are playing better football now than we ever did under LVG despite the results and I hate to admit that because I am no fan of Mourinho. I have to give him credit that we are more entertaining now and that atleast I can see the light in the tunnel. Next year or later this season when it clicks I am absolutely convinced we will be a force to be reckoned with. I never saw that with LVG.
Hands up, I wasn't a fan of Van Gaal. I thought he would be a good stopgap (after what he managed to do with an average Holland team in WC14) but football was average-dull-awful. I also got the feeling that we'd never push for the title with Van Gaal .... pic shows how we just levelled off and never made a push.
Hands up too, I thought Mourinho would get to grips with the squad quicker than he has done (especially given the new buys - all of whom I was happy with) and we'd have had more points by now.
The thing for me is I still think that unlike Van Gaal, Mourinho can steadily improve things (unexpected issues like the number of injuries and Martial's "personal issues" haven't helped) once he sorts out who plays where and in what formation but he needs to do that quick and possibly make some hard decisions. For example, I think to get the best out of Zlatan, you need 3 speedy players around him (2 wingers and a 10) but to get the best out of Pogba and allow him to drive forward, you need two MFers sitting behind him .... so to play both/get the best out of both of them, that'd be Pogba as the 10 (maybe... not convinced though) or have 4 upfront and 3 in midfield which can't happen as he'll always play a back 4.
When he sorts out the first XI, formation, who to keep, who to bin/sell, a new CH to team up with Bailly, I see us challenging top.4 again ..... I'd rather give Mourinho time (this season and next) and we go 6th, 4th, 2nd, etc (i.e. progress) than become a top 6 side who never really challenges (like Everton used to be).
Hands up too, I thought Mourinho would get to grips with the squad quicker than he has done (especially given the new buys - all of whom I was happy with) and we'd have had more points by now.
The thing for me is I still think that unlike Van Gaal, Mourinho can steadily improve things (unexpected issues like the number of injuries and Martial's "personal issues" haven't helped) once he sorts out who plays where and in what formation but he needs to do that quick and possibly make some hard decisions. For example, I think to get the best out of Zlatan, you need 3 speedy players around him (2 wingers and a 10) but to get the best out of Pogba and allow him to drive forward, you need two MFers sitting behind him .... so to play both/get the best out of both of them, that'd be Pogba as the 10 (maybe... not convinced though) or have 4 upfront and 3 in midfield which can't happen as he'll always play a back 4.
When he sorts out the first XI, formation, who to keep, who to bin/sell, a new CH to team up with Bailly, I see us challenging top.4 again ..... I'd rather give Mourinho time (this season and next) and we go 6th, 4th, 2nd, etc (i.e. progress) than become a top 6 side who never really challenges (like Everton used to be).
I disagree Pogba does solve issues. We have been missing a creative CM since Scholes left. He's not only that but strong, skillful, athletic and unique. Not sure what's not to like.
My point is no one had an issue with his signings. They were all proven (bar Bailly to an extent) quality. It's also too early too write any of them off.
Not sure how the finger can be pointed.
An in form Martial could fire us to the title. Give him a run of games, he will soon rediscover his form. He is 1000x better than the alternatives.
I really wish some of the people on here would actually watch the matches, rather than clearly just seeing the final result pop up on their phones and then furiously typing away about how bad we are. We're improved immeasurably in terms of our play and are playing (much) better than we have seen since Fergie retired. In fact I'd argue that you put the Robin Van Persie of 12/13 into this side and we're alongside Chelsea, City & Liverpool at the top.
Our season is pretty much summed up by the following stats in the PL that completely illustrate what I've been seeing every week:
Ibrahimovic - 46 shots - 23 on target (50%) vs 7 goals (15%)
Benteke - 32 shots - 13 on target (41%) vs 5 goals (16%)
Coutinho - 32 shots - 17 on target (53%) vs 5 goals (16%)
Firmino - 27 shots - 18 on target (67%) vs 5 goals (19%)
Walcott - 30 shots - 18 on target (60%) vs 6 goals (20%)
Austin - 30 shots - 17 on target (57%) vs 6 goals (20%)
Antonio - 29 shots - 12 on target (41%) vs 6 goals (21%)
Aguero - 41 shots - 24 on target (59%) vs 10 goals (24%)
Hazard - 28 shots - 18 on target (64%) vs 7 goals (25%)
Lukaku - 27 shots - 19 on target (70%) vs 7 goals (26%)
Fer - 22 shots - 9 on target (41%) vs 6 goals (27%)
Sanchez - 27 shots - 16 on target (59%) vs 8 goals (30%)
Capoue - 16 shots - 10 on target (63%) vs 5 goals (31%)
Kane - 16 shots - 9 on target (56%) vs 5 goals (31%)
Mane - 19 shots - 12 on target (63%) vs 6 goals (32%)
Costa - 30 shots - 20 on target (67%) vs 10 goals (33%)
Defoe - 19 shots - 11 on target (58%) vs 7 goals (37%)
Zlatan has the worst conversion rate of any player on 5+ goals this season. What's worse is that the vast majority of chances he's missed have been match winning chances (unlike Aguero for instance who's missed many chances when the game has been sewn up). He's had numerous clear chances against Burnley and Stoke, as well as a key chance against Liverpool and West Ham that should have been put away. He also had a really good chance on the stroke of half time against City.
If this carries on all season and we finish 6th because Zlatan should have scored 32 goals but only scores 16, then I can see why people would blame Mourinho. Persisting with Zlatan up front for an entire season after he misses chance after chance would be the responsibility of the manager. However as it stands we have no other striker in form to replace him (Rashford and Rooney are likewise missing easy chances) and it's still only 1/3 through the season.
Our season is pretty much summed up by the following stats in the PL that completely illustrate what I've been seeing every week:
Ibrahimovic - 46 shots - 23 on target (50%) vs 7 goals (15%)
Benteke - 32 shots - 13 on target (41%) vs 5 goals (16%)
Coutinho - 32 shots - 17 on target (53%) vs 5 goals (16%)
Firmino - 27 shots - 18 on target (67%) vs 5 goals (19%)
Walcott - 30 shots - 18 on target (60%) vs 6 goals (20%)
Austin - 30 shots - 17 on target (57%) vs 6 goals (20%)
Antonio - 29 shots - 12 on target (41%) vs 6 goals (21%)
Aguero - 41 shots - 24 on target (59%) vs 10 goals (24%)
Hazard - 28 shots - 18 on target (64%) vs 7 goals (25%)
Lukaku - 27 shots - 19 on target (70%) vs 7 goals (26%)
Fer - 22 shots - 9 on target (41%) vs 6 goals (27%)
Sanchez - 27 shots - 16 on target (59%) vs 8 goals (30%)
Capoue - 16 shots - 10 on target (63%) vs 5 goals (31%)
Kane - 16 shots - 9 on target (56%) vs 5 goals (31%)
Mane - 19 shots - 12 on target (63%) vs 6 goals (32%)
Costa - 30 shots - 20 on target (67%) vs 10 goals (33%)
Defoe - 19 shots - 11 on target (58%) vs 7 goals (37%)
Zlatan has the worst conversion rate of any player on 5+ goals this season. What's worse is that the vast majority of chances he's missed have been match winning chances (unlike Aguero for instance who's missed many chances when the game has been sewn up). He's had numerous clear chances against Burnley and Stoke, as well as a key chance against Liverpool and West Ham that should have been put away. He also had a really good chance on the stroke of half time against City.
If this carries on all season and we finish 6th because Zlatan should have scored 32 goals but only scores 16, then I can see why people would blame Mourinho. Persisting with Zlatan up front for an entire season after he misses chance after chance would be the responsibility of the manager. However as it stands we have no other striker in form to replace him (Rashford and Rooney are likewise missing easy chances) and it's still only 1/3 through the season.
I can only speak for myself, but my feeling was that we got progressively worse as time went by with LVG in charge. I felt, even with all the ball posession in the world, like we were turning in to a midtable team, where the only high points were when playing top teams, as that was the only times we played well, kind of like Everton used to be under Moyes. The football was dreadful to watch, and I felt more and more apathetic as the season progressed. Mourinho has got me caring again, in some way.
I find myself amazed that we actually plays really well in large parts of most games. I'm not a moral beacon like many here, and actually enjoy our manager showing some grit and emotion in the face of defeat and bad results. LVGs emotionless face made me insane at the end. I much prefer the fight we've shown as a team these laset few months. Obviously our manager has to take some of the blame, and should take a page out of some of our former players and managers books, and fecking work on finishing and repeat ad nauseam. I still believe in the project, even though it's hard at times.
How anyone can trick themselves into believing LVG should've been given more time is beyond me. Saying Mourinho has failed before we've even reached Boxing day in the same argument is the definition of double standards, and frankly, reeks of an agenda.
I find myself amazed that we actually plays really well in large parts of most games. I'm not a moral beacon like many here, and actually enjoy our manager showing some grit and emotion in the face of defeat and bad results. LVGs emotionless face made me insane at the end. I much prefer the fight we've shown as a team these laset few months. Obviously our manager has to take some of the blame, and should take a page out of some of our former players and managers books, and fecking work on finishing and repeat ad nauseam. I still believe in the project, even though it's hard at times.
How anyone can trick themselves into believing LVG should've been given more time is beyond me. Saying Mourinho has failed before we've even reached Boxing day in the same argument is the definition of double standards, and frankly, reeks of an agenda.
Patience is sorely lacking in this place. Has been since Moyes got sacked
At least Mourinho does not instruct United to play safety first, crab style football in which the players pass sideways or backwards to retain possession. Definitely very much better than LVG. Only problem is that the younger strikers are loosing confidence, even with 1 to 1 chances, they could not score.
- Status