[Red00012]

official gold prince sounds reliable from 14 hours ago , I’m sure it would be all over the news if Chris Wheeler had mentioned it.

 

[croadyman]

official gold prince sounds reliable from 14 hours ago , I’m sure it would be all over the news if Chris Wheeler had mentioned it.

Yeah questionable validity

 

[JE-365]

what the feck is wrong with people?! If this is true...

Chris Wheeler has been spot on lately. He probably has source inside the club, so I think this is true.

 

[2 man midfield]

Sad that it’s come to this, he’s a kid with way too much expectation on his shoulders

 

[Tallis]

Hojlund needs to improve his game but the criticism now is way over the top. Worst striker in 40 years ?!- We had Weighorst and Ighalo playing for us recently.

- He actually had a good game against Spurs - had 2 shots on target, ran the channels well and held the ball decently.

- Its not his fault that Man Utd paid 70m for him and made him our primary #9 before he was ready.

- He is a talented striker. Strong, fast and very good finisher. He needs to improve his overall play, holding off the ball and poaching skills but I genuinely believe he can get there.

I hope he stays and proves people wrong. Same for Garnacho and same for Mainoo. We are fortunate to have the 3 of them.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

Hopefully they find the people responsible. At least we can rule out anywhere near the opposition goal when searching for them.

Tasteful comment

 

[C'Thun]

I think Højlund is getting too much hate from our fans. I am not saying he will definitely be good enough, but there is no need to write him off, as most strikers in the PL now weren't even known in the football world at the age of 20-21. He wasn't, and isn't ready to play for us right now. No 20-21 year old striker is. It is a role where experience is required, and a role that comes with an enormous amount of pressure, probably more than any other role on the pitch, especially when it is for United who are one of the biggest clubs in the world, and he is clearly feeling it right now. I think people don't realise that confidence directly translates to your abilities on the pitch, which is probably why things like his first touch looks even worse now than it was when he initially joined, despite being more experienced now.

What he needs is a loan to a league like Bundesliga or Ligue 1. He needs to improve all of his qualities, and to do it without the pressure that comes playing for us. I think he showed in his first season that he has qualities required to be a decent PL striker, he just needs to improve on them, and develop in a weaker and slower league. That is how most strikers develop and get ready for the Premier League. Strikers like Kane are the exception, not the rule. That being said, this doesn't mean he will automatically be a great striker in the future, but with his skill set and the fact that he has shown a pretty good level at the age of 20 already, things could be looking much brighter for him if he develops elsewhere.

I also think he is hurting from playing for us when we are an incoherent team with no real attacking play style. I am sure he'd look much better playing for Aston Villa, Brentford or Bournemouth.

 

[Rozay]

Sad that it’s come to this, he’s a kid with way too much expectation on his shoulders

He’s not a ‘kid’, he’s a 22 year old pro international footballer. He’s old enough to be amongst our best players, if he was amongst our best players. Many, many football teams have good 22 year old footballers. Especially the supposedly good teams, who intend on winning trophies. Can we stop this narrative?!

 

[tomaldinho1]

He’s not a ‘kid’, he’s a 22 year old pro international footballer. He’s old enough to be amongst our best players, if he was amongst our best players. Many, many football teams have good 22 year old footballers. Especially the supposedly good teams, who intend on winning trophies. Can we stop this narrative?!

Name the 22 year old CFs across these many teams that start and are considered the best players?

 

[Freak]

At least we can rule out anywhere near the opposition goal when searching for them.

Ba Dum Tish!

 

[2 man midfield]

He’s not a ‘kid’, he’s a 22 year old pro international footballer. He’s old enough to be amongst our best players, if he was amongst our best players. Many, many football teams have good 22 year old footballers. Especially the supposedly good teams, who intend on winning trophies. Can we stop this narrative?!

The pressure I was talking about didn’t start yesterday, it started when we signed him to be our one and only centre forward when he was just 4 months out of his teens. Everybody knew he was tasked with being the main man.

I see people talking about us signing Sesko to replace him. Sesko was born just after Hojlund - if we’d signed him 2 seasons ago and given him the same treatment, something tells me he wouldn’t have progressed at the rate he has. Young players need to be allowed to fail, to get taken out of the team and come back in, and preferably out of the spotlight. Hojlund hasn’t been allowed any of that.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Name the 22 year old CFs across these many teams that start and are considered the best players?

Does it have to be a CF? There are loads of top 22 year olds starting across big teams. What's so special about the CF position.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Does it have to be a CF? There are loads of top 22 year olds starting across big teams. What's so special about the CF position.

Yes, of course it has to be a CF, we are discussing Hojlund? There are many wide attackers who are very young, but not CFs - so I want to know who all the 22 year olds are that are great players in that role?

 

[Rozay]

Yes, of course it has to be a CF, we are discussing Hojlund? There are many wide attackers who are very young, but not CFs - so I want to know who all the 22 year olds are that are great players in that role?

The answer would be the ones that play at top clubs, which is the point. The ‘several’ you are alluding to, who are not good enough, are nowhere near clubs like ours. Nor are the 25 year olds who are not good enough.

I’ve been trying to say here since forever - the standard at Manchester United is the standard. There’s no standard for 22 year olds. There’s just the standard. Most 22 year olds can’t meet it, but some can. And those should be the ones playing for us. Even fewer 18 year olds can’t meet it, but some can, and those should be the only 18 year olds playing for us. The same applies for other top teams, and if you insist upon a list I can give you one - but the point is, 22 years old is not too young for a footballer to be good enough. So Hojlund is either good enough or he isn’t. And I’ll let you watch his games and answer which category he falls into.

The reason all the promising 16 year olds in our academy do not play is because they are not yet at the standard. It’s that simple. We don’t play them every week and then simply excuse them because it’s fine for them to not be of the standard. So there’s no 16/17 year olds in our team. But we’d play Yamal, because he has risen to the standard. Some fans believe the standard isn’t something young players are demanded to rise to, but instead something that should be lowered to whatever young players are capable of giving us. Which is, of course, ridiculous.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The answer would be the ones that play at top clubs, which is the point. The ‘several’ you are alluding to, who are not good enough, are nowhere near clubs like ours. Nor are the 25 year olds who are not good enough.

I’ve been trying to say here since forever - the standard at Manchester United is the standard. There’s no standard for 22 year olds. There’s just the standard. Most 22 year olds can’t meet it, but some can. And those should be the ones playing for us. Even fewer 18 year olds can’t meet it, but some can, and those should be the only 18 year olds playing for us. The same applies for other top teams, and if you insist upon a list I can give you one - but the point is, 22 years old is not too young for a footballer to be good enough. So Hojlund is either good enough or he isn’t. And I’ll let you watch his games and answer which category he falls into.

The reason all the promising 16 year olds in our academy do not play is because they are not yet at the standard. It’s that simple. We don’t play them every week and then simply excuse them because it’s fine for them to not be of the standard. So there’s no 16/17 year olds in our team. But we’d play Yamal, because he has risen to the standard. Some fans believe the standard isn’t something young players are demanded to rise to, but instead something that should be lowered to whatever young players are capable of giving us. Which is, of course, ridiculous.

Lots of text won't help you deflect this. Show me the names and we can assess them?

 

[lex talionis]

The age old question that all sporting clubs face with players who come in a high expectations and a high price tag is how long do they need to be patient? I don't have the answer to that question in the curious case of Rasmus Hojlund but what I can say is that we need to be thinking about a striker this summer.

For those who urge patience, let's be patient, but it would be negligent on our part to persist with Hojlund as our first choice striker through the end of next season if his productivity remains what it is, which is virtually nonexistent.

 

[Isotope]

Would this severely affect his performance?

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Yes, of course it has to be a CF, we are discussing Hojlund? There are many wide attackers who are very young, but not CFs - so I want to know who all the 22 year olds are that are great players in that role?

There have been many in the past, right now? Sesko Greenwood? Can Cole Palmer or Saka play as CF's? Still don't understand why we can't include other positions, though. What's the difference about being young and learning as a CF as opposed to being young and learning as a winger or a DM or AM?

 

[VP89]

I might be being harsh but I sometimes wonder how easy or difficult he'd find U21s the way he's played this season.

He almost never spins a defender or takes anyone on. Though I must say he looked more direct and aggressive on the ball vs Spurs. Is it confidence or ability?

 

[stefan92]

Yes, of course it has to be a CF, we are discussing Hojlund? There are many wide attackers who are very young, but not CFs - so I want to know who all the 22 year olds are that are great players in that role?

Ekitike for Frankfurt. Just became their main man as they sold Marmoush to City and is first choice already for the whole season. And behind Marmoush their most successful scorer this season.

 

[Exiled_Red]

Rasmus has struggled, but if you think a single forward in the world would be successful in this team, you dont understand football. Outside of prime R9, what other forwards can be a consistent goal threat in a team thats unable to build up or provide service? You throw Harry Kane in this team and it would only be a minor improvement because he would barely see the ball and when he did get it by dropping deep he would have nobody running in behind him.

There are things Rasmus should be doing better, which is knock off the CB battle bullshit and start running the channels and stretching the back line. But even then, we only have Bruno thats capable of playing accurate enough balls in behind. If anything, were ruining a promising players development. What do you think naturally starts to happen if you make 100 runs a game and get service 2 times? You stop making runs.

 

[Rozay]

Lots of text won't help you deflect this. Show me the names and we can assess them?

You have literally just deflected the text that you have responded to.

But anyway:

Victor Boniface - led Leverkusen to the treble at 22.

Victor Osimhen - was a year older at 23 when he led Napoli to their first title in 30 years.

Julian Alvarez - playing regularly for City and Argentina as they won everything at 22.

Nicolas Jackson - playing regularly for Chelsea and scoring goals at 22.

Am I allowed to mention the really good players like Haaland and Mbappé, or do they ‘not count’ because they are really good?

These are current players, and they represent a sizeable percentage of the top clubs in England and Germany. Then, philosophically, a number of the other top clubs do not play with a centre forward at all. Like Arsenal, for example, although the one they are most strongly linked with is Benjamin Sesko (you can google his age), and Real last season, who instead used a then 20 year old Jude Bellingham in the role (and won loads of trophies).

Now if we start going back, then you can look at players like Fowler, Ronaldo, Owen, Anelka, Aguero, Torres, Kluivert and many more who were playing for top clubs at 22 and accepting of the expectations. What we can also say with conviction, is that NONE of the clubs that these players play for have accepted the level of consistent performance produced by Rasmus Hojlund from a regular starting young player. The players above have only played for clubs of that stature because they have been able to perform better than the rubbish Hojlund has been turning out for us.

 

[tomaldinho1]

There have been many in the past, right now? Sesko Greenwood? Can Cole Palmer or Saka play as CF's? Still don't understand why we can't include other positions, though. What's the difference about being young and learning as a CF as opposed to being young and learning as a winger or a DM or AM?

Greenwood was a generational talent but obviously we know that ship has sailed, he mostly played off centre for us (though I agree his best role was CF).
Delap is the only one in the PL just quickly thinking through strikers, feel free to correct if missing someone, he's on track to have a Hojlund like season (last season) with 8 non penalty goals so far. He also plays a bit more like a LW in how he positions himself but he is technically a CF.
Sesko is an interesting one, I am a bit curious as to why no club goes for him as he's been for sale now it seems like a while. He is also in a league that tends to deceive a little, though I rate the Bundesliga, for example with Haller and Jovic in recent times, I guess Fullkrug wasn't exactly pulling up trees before he got injured either.
Palmer and Saka are not CFs, no. Because clearly if you look across world football and there is a position where we're struggling to find many young players (compared to, for example wingers, where you can think of loads immediately) it suggests it is rare for CFs to be close to the finished article. Half the forum wants Gykores, look at him at 22, look at guys like Ruud, like Lewa etc. That doesn't mean there aren't freaks like Haaland or someone like Kane (his breakout year was when he was 22) but they are an anomaly.

Ekitike for Frankfurt. Just became their main man as they sold Marmoush to City and is first choice already for the whole season. And behind Marmoush their most successful scorer this season.

An interesting one, again Bundesliga but seems like a prospect. Interesting how similar physically the profiles seems to be Rasmus, Ekitike, Sesko - tall, physical, fast, powerful strikers of the ball. Is thi s anew generation of big men, Ferguson as well will be interesting to see ho he does at WHUM>

Anyway point being, there are not many 22 year olds (or yonger) leading the line at CF across the top leagues.

 

[tomaldinho1]

You have literally just deflected the text that you have responded to.

But anyway:

Victor Boniface - led Leverkusen to the treble at 22.

Victor Osimhen - was a year older at 23 when he led Napoli to their first title in 30 years.

Julian Alvarez - playing regularly for City and Argentina as they won everything at 22.

Nicolas Jackson - playing regularly for Chelsea and scoring goals at 22.

Am I allowed to mention the really good players like Haaland and Mbappé, or do they ‘not count’ because they are really good?

These are current players, and they represent a sizeable percentage of the top clubs in England and Germany. Then, philosophically, a number of the other top clubs do not play with a centre forward at all. Like Arsenal, for example, although the one they are most strongly linked with is Benjamin Sesko (you can google his age), and Real last season, who instead used a then 20 year old Jude Bellingham in the role (and won loads of trophies).

Now if we start going back, then you can look at players like Fowler, Ronaldo, Owen, Anelka, Aguero, Torres, Kluivert and many more who were playing for top clubs at 22 and accepting of the expectations. What we can also say with conviction, is that NONE of the clubs that these players play for have accepted the level of consistent performance produced by Rasmus Hojlund from a regular starting young player. The players above have only played for clubs of that stature because they have been able to perform better than the rubbish Hojlund has been turning out for us.

So you have come up with 4, one of whom was sub for Haaland (despite being very good I agree) and one is now 26. And only two are from the PL.
Why would you put 'not count' in parenthesis - did they play centrally at 22 or under? Haaland yes, Mbappe no as 4 years ago he was playing more off the left.

You are the one who made the claim, I am simply pointing out that there really aren't many 22 year old CFs in world football right now that are their team's 'best' players - proven by the fact you've had to include a load of players who are now much older then Rasmus, many of whom are literally considered some of the greatest ever strikers of all time. Can you agree CFs tend to develop later and so it's a bit harsh to be expecting Hojlund at 22 to be one of our best players?

 

[Rozay]

Anyway point being, there are not many 22 year olds (or yonger) leading the line at CF across the top leagues.

Again, the irony of whatever point you are trying to make seems completely lost on you. The reason why top clubs don’t all have 22 year old centre forwards leading the line is because they are often not good enough.

The point you should be making in defence of Hojlund should be that several other top clubs have non-scoring non-shooting, poor ball controlling 22 year old centre forwards. Not just us. But they don’t. They only have 22 year olds when they are able to perform better than Hojlund. Why have we adopted a different approach? And where exactly is it getting us?

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Greenwood was a generational talent but obviously we know that ship has sailed, he mostly played off centre for us (though I agree his best role was CF).
Delap is the only one in the PL just quickly thinking through strikers, feel free to correct if missing someone, he's on track to have a Hojlund like season (last season) with 8 non penalty goals so far. He also plays a bit more like a LW in how he positions himself but he is technically a CF.
Sesko is an interesting one, I am a bit curious as to why no club goes for him as he's been for sale now it seems like a while. He is also in a league that tends to deceive a little, though I rate the Bundesliga, for example with Haller and Jovic in recent times, I guess Fullkrug wasn't exactly pulling up trees before he got injured either.
Palmer and Saka are not CFs, no. Because clearly if you look across world football and there is a position where we're struggling to find many young players (compared to, for example wingers, where you can think of loads immediately) it suggests it is rare for CFs to be close to the finished article. Half the forum wants Gykores, look at him at 22, look at guys like Ruud, like Lewa etc. That doesn't mean there aren't freaks like Haaland or someone like Kane (his breakout year was when he was 22) but they are an anomaly.



An interesting one, again Bundesliga but seems like a prospect. Interesting how similar physically the profiles seems to be Rasmus, Ekitike, Sesko - tall, physical, fast, powerful strikers of the ball. Is thi s anew generation of big men, Ferguson as well will be interesting to see ho he does at WHUM>

Anyway point being, there are not many 22 year olds (or yonger) leading the line at CF across the top leagues.

Ok fair enough. Could it be that it's because teams only play with 1 striker nowadays, so across the big teams there arent going to be many strikers playing anyway, and it would therefore be more likely to be an older more experienced player unless there is a generational talent available like you said.
In which case Rasmus isn't a generational talent even though that's the kind of money we paid for him. He might turn into a decent striker though at some point.

 

[Rozay]

So you have come up with 4, one of whom was sub for Haaland (despite being very good I agree) and one is now 26. And only two are from the PL.
Why would you put 'not count' in parenthesis - did they play centrally at 22 or under? Haaland yes, Mbappe no as 4 years ago he was playing more off the left.

You are the one who made the claim, I am simply pointing out that there really aren't many 22 year old CFs in world football right now that are their team's 'best' players - proven by the fact you've had to include a load of players who are now much older then Rasmus, many of whom are literally considered some of the greatest ever strikers of all time. Can you agree CFs tend to develop later and so it's a bit harsh to be expecting Hojlund at 22 to be one of our best players?

I came up with 4. How many ‘top teams’ are there in the game? Do you think I am unable to name other non top sides who play with 22 year old strikers or something?

And the players who are 26 were obviously once 22, in case that needed to be pointed out. And they played as strikers then. Including Mbappé on several occasions. And yes, only two are from the PL. Again, how many top teams are in the PL?

And what claim did I make exactly? If we want to quote my claim literally, I said ‘He’s old enough to be amongst our best players, if he was amongst our best players. Many, many football teams have good 22 year old footballers. Especially the supposedly good teams, who intend on winning trophies’’

Your first step was to request a list of top teams (a small list in and of itself) who play with a 22 year old, or younger (I presume) striker only, which again, is skewed, given that there are no more than about 8 strikers who play regularly for all the top teams in Europe, regardless of age, given that there is a finite number of top teams and then they only play with one, typically.

My point remains, 22 is plenty old enough for a player to be a good player. 22 is old enough for a player to be amongst the best players in their team. Given that it is not mandatory for us, or any other top club, to regularly play a 22 year old - you would expect that when a top club DOES decide to play a 22 year old, it is because he is good enough and not unreasonable to expect performances from them. That’s it. That’s the point. Hojlund is old enough to be a good player, because at the top clubs who play 22 year olds - they are all good players! You contradict whatever point you are making because NONE of these clubs would play or accept what Hojlund is producing. My question has always been, ‘so why should we?’. If the best you can come up with is ‘because he’s 22’, then it’s a stupid point, as proven by all the other top clubs who do not accept this level of performance from their 22 year olds, and would jot accept it from Hojlund.

Again, the standard in question here, is not the best that Hojlund can do. The standard is Manchester United. Either Hojlund’s level is there, or he shouldn’t be playing for us.

How many top clubs/countries play 16/17 year old wingers? Do you think that, because that number is small, that it would be acceptable for Lamine Yamal to start every game for Barcelona and Spain and make zero contribution? And it would simply be okay for Hansi Flick to come out and ask ‘how many 17 year olds can contribute though?’. Again, the standard is the standard. Yamal has had to rise to meet the standard, not the other way around. It hasn’t been lowered to whatever is considered reasonable to expect from a 16 year old.

 

[Marcus]

He needs to score to start the virtuous cycle of confidence. Surely, he can't be that bad.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Ok fair enough. Could it be that it's because teams only play with 1 striker nowadays, so across the big teams there arent going to be many strikers playing anyway, and it would therefore be more likely to be an older more experienced player unless there is a generational talent available like you said.
In which case Rasmus isn't a generational talent even though that's the kind of money we paid for him. He might turn into a decent striker though at some point.

I do think there's been a lack of central CFs since Ronaldo/Messi + agree ideally you'd have someone in their pomp now (28ish) with Hojlund playing cup games, sub and Europa a bit. I am of the opinion we need to get to a place as a team where we are creating a bit and then we will see more clearly where the weak links are in attack - as he has proven with us he can score goals and is a clinical finisher, last season, it makes no sense he would suddenly just lose that ability.

 

[Ali Dia]

I came up with 4. How many ‘top teams’ are there in the game? Do you think I am unable to name other non top sides who play with 22 year old strikers or something?

And the players who are 26 were obviously once 22, in case that needed to be pointed out. And they played as strikers then. Including Mbappé on several occasions. And yes, only two are from the PL. Again, how many top teams are in the PL?

And what claim did I make exactly? If we want to quote my claim literally, I said ‘He’s old enough to be amongst our best players, if he was amongst our best players. Many, many football teams have good 22 year old footballers. Especially the supposedly good teams, who intend on winning trophies’’

Your first step was to request a list of top teams (a small list in and of itself) who play with a 22 year old, or younger (I presume) striker only, which again, is skewed, given that there are no more than about 8 strikers who play regularly for all the top teams in Europe, regardless of age, given that there is a finite number of top teams and then they only play with one, typically.

My point remains, 22 is plenty old enough for a player to be a good player. 22 is old enough for a player to be amongst the best players in their team. Given that it is not mandatory for us, or any other top club, to regularly play a 22 year old - you would expect that when a top club DOES decide to play a 22 year old, it is because he is good enough and not unreasonable to expect performances from them. That’s it. That’s the point. Hojlund is old enough to be a good player, because at the top clubs who play 22 year olds - they are all good players! You contradict whatever point you are making because NONE of these clubs would play or accept what Hojlund is producing. My question has always been, ‘so why should we?’. If the best you can come up with is ‘because he’s 22’, then it’s a stupid point, as proven by all the other top clubs who do not accept this level of performance from their 22 year olds, and would jot accept it from Hojlund.

Again, the standard in question here, is not the best that Hojlund can do. The standard is Manchester United. Either Hojlund’s level is there, or he shouldn’t be playing for us.

How many top clubs/countries play 16/17 year old wingers? Do you think that, because that number is small, that it would be acceptable for Lamine Yamal to start every game for Barcelona and Spain and make zero contribution? And it would simply be okay for Hansi Flick to come out and ask ‘how many 17 year olds can contribute though?’. Again, the standard is the standard. Yamal has had to rise to meet the standard, not the other way around. It hasn’t been lowered to whatever is considered reasonable to expect from a 16 year old.

He's failing badly this season no doubt about it but we clearly didn't sign him to come in and be the best forward in the PL. it was a multi year plan based on his attributes and potential and the available data which looked promising (I assume data was used as it was a slightly left field transfer) He was one of the best gettable U21 forwards we could get that summer affer years of going for old players on their last legs.

If he'd improved on his first season this year he'd already be one of the best forwards in the league at 22 and we'd all be delighted with him. Most of our players have gone backwards this year, especially the young lads. Progress isn't always linear. This form is far from good enough for United I agree but it really feels like there's a lot of toxic stuff going on in background at the club where nobody is happy and everybody is playing within themselves unsure of what to do and waiting to see what happens next. It seems a bit ott to be expecting a young fella to rise above all of that and carry the team when his much more experienced team mates are also failing badly. For what it's worth I think Chido would probably have offered more or at least played with some freedom but I can't write Rasmus off on the back of one bad season where everybody else has struggled to do the basics of their jobs.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I came up with 4. How many ‘top teams’ are there in the game? Do you think I am unable to name other non top sides who play with 22 year old strikers or something?

And the players who are 26 were obviously once 22, in case that needed to be pointed out. And they played as strikers then. Including Mbappé on several occasions. And yes, only two are from the PL. Again, how many top teams are in the PL?

And what claim did I make exactly? If we want to quote my claim literally, I said ‘He’s old enough to be amongst our best players, if he was amongst our best players. Many, many football teams have good 22 year old footballers. Especially the supposedly good teams, who intend on winning trophies’’

Your first step was to request a list of top teams (a small list in and of itself) who play with a 22 year old, or younger (I presume) striker only, which again, is skewed, given that there are no more than about 8 strikers who play regularly for all the top teams in Europe, regardless of age, given that there is a finite number of top teams and then they only play with one, typically.

My point remains, 22 is plenty old enough for a player to be a good player. 22 is old enough for a player to be amongst the best players in their team. Given that it is not mandatory for us, or any other top club, to regularly play a 22 year old - you would expect that when a top club DOES decide to play a 22 year old, it is because he is good enough and not unreasonable to expect performances from them. That’s it. That’s the point. Hojlund is old enough to be a good player, because at the top clubs who play 22 year olds - they are all good players! You contradict whatever point you are making because NONE of these clubs would play or accept what Hojlund is producing. My question has always been, ‘so why should we?’. If the best you can come up with is ‘because he’s 22’, then it’s a stupid point, as proven by all the other top clubs who do not accept this level of performance from their 22 year olds, and would jot accept it from Hojlund.

Again, the standard in question here, is not the best that Hojlund can do. The standard is Manchester United. Either Hojlund’s level is there, or he shouldn’t be playing for us.

How many top clubs/countries play 16/17 year old wingers? Do you think that, because that number is small, that it would be acceptable for Lamine Yamal to start every game for Barcelona and Spain and make zero contribution? And it would simply be okay for Hansi Flick to come out and ask ‘how many 17 year olds can contribute though?’. Again, the standard is the standard. Yamal has had to rise to meet the standard, not the other way around. It hasn’t been lowered to whatever is considered reasonable to expect from a 16 year old.

I think you responded twice, so both my replies are here.
I'm not sure irony is the correct word, though the difference between buying young players vs older players is seemingly lost to you. In the past, we sign Cavani, we sign Ronaldo etc. Sure you can hammer them when they are poor because there is no upside, they come in on huge wages, huge sign on fees to be that guy. We've got a lot of younger players who we hope will develop here and my point re Hojlund (and Zirkzee) specifically is that CFs tend to develop later. Context is important in life. But I don't look at a young player and just write him off after a bad period, especially if I already have a data set from last season where they played much better. That seems a bit short sighted top me.

Again, feel free to produce a comprehensive list if you want to go away and google, we can then look through them - the other poster gave some names and it was interesting to talk about them. You seem hell bent on the idea a CF at 22 should be playing at a super high level, I have pointed out that it is incredibly rare to see this in the best teams, your counter argument is essentially to act as though United are where we were 10 years ago and can't ever develop/risk younger players and their erratic form.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

I do think there's been a lack of central CFs since Ronaldo/Messi + agree ideally you'd have someone in their pomp now (28ish) with Hojlund playing cup games, sub and Europa a bit. I am of the opinion we need to get to a place as a team where we are creating a bit and then we will see more clearly where the weak links are in attack - as he has proven with us he can score goals and is a clinical finisher, last season, it makes no sense he would suddenly just lose that ability.

Ok, yes, I can't disagree with the above. Time will tell. One thing we do both agree with though I think, is that he is not a generational talent.

 

[Rozay]

I think you responded twice, so both my replies are here.
I'm not sure irony is the correct word, though the difference between buying young players vs older players is seemingly lost to you. In the past, we sign Cavani, we sign Ronaldo etc. Sure you can hammer them when they are poor because there is no upside, they come in on huge wages, huge sign on fees to be that guy. We've got a lot of younger players who we hope will develop here and my point re Hojlund (and Zirkzee) specifically is that CFs tend to develop later. Context is important in life. But I don't look at a young player and just write him off after a bad period, especially if I already have a data set from last season where they played much better. That seems a bit short sighted top me.

Again, feel free to produce a comprehensive list if you want to go away and google, we can then look through them - the other poster gave some names and it was interesting to talk about them. You seem hell bent on the idea a CF at 22 should be playing at a super high level, I have pointed out that it is incredibly rare to see this in the best teams, your counter argument is essentially to act as though United are where we were 10 years ago and can't ever develop/risk younger players and their erratic form.

Actually, I am simply hell bent that a footballer playing regularly for Manchester United needs to perform at a level befitting of Manchester United. That’s it. The end. If a player plays for us at 14 or a player plays for us at 44 - there is no age requirement. Only a standard. 22 years old isn’t too young to be a good footballer. And in any case, if only 10 footballers in the world are good enough to play for United, then the 22 years olds here should come from the 10.

It’s perfectly okay if Hojlund is not good enough to play for us at 22. It’s perfectly okay for James Overy at 16 to not be good enough to play for us. It’s perfectly okay for Weghorst to not be good enough at 30. They don’t actually have to be playing for us though. It’s not about blaming Hojlund at all. It’s just about accountability and admitting that this level isn’t good enough for us, and his performances have frankly been unacceptable. Rashford’s became unacceptable, and we pusher him out. And that is a player who has a far more comprehensive body of work to show thst he is at least capable of the level. I don’t believe Hojlund has, despite 6 weeks of encouraging form last season. The vast majority of his time as a Manchester United player, and I mean at least 75% of the games he’s ever played for us, have been below standard. I don’t see how anyone who wants the best for us can defend that. Like, he doesn’t HAVE to be our striker. It doesn’t have to be him. It is very very easy to improve upon what he has given us, and it’s not about winning arguments on the internet - it should be an easy case for me to argue that his level is a long way from being acceptable.

 

[Rozay]

He's failing badly this season no doubt about it but we clearly didn't sign him to come in and be the best forward in the PL. it was a multi year plan based on his attributes and potential and the available data which looked promising (I assume data was used as it was a slightly left field transfer) He was one of the best gettable U21 forwards we could get that summer affer years of going for old players on their last legs.

If he'd improved on his first season this year he'd already be one of the best forwards in the league at 22 and we'd all be delighted with him. Most of our players have gone backwards this year, especially the young lads. Progress isn't always linear. This form is far from good enough for United I agree but it really feels like there's a lot of toxic stuff going on in background at the club where nobody is happy and everybody is playing within themselves unsure of what to do and waiting to see what happens next. It seems a bit ott to be expecting a young fella to rise above all of that and carry the team when his much more experienced team mates are also failing badly. For what it's worth I think Chido would probably have offered more or at least played with some freedom but I can't write Rasmus off on the back of one bad season where everybody else has struggled to do the basics of their jobs.

You mentioned Chido Obi. He’s 17 now. Would you be disappointed or satisfied with his progress if he is at Hojlund’s level in 5 years time?

 

[Fobal]

Rasmus has struggled, but if you think a single forward in the world would be successful in this team, you dont understand football. Outside of prime R9, what other forwards can be a consistent goal threat in a team thats unable to build up or provide service? You throw Harry Kane in this team and it would only be a minor improvement because he would barely see the ball and when he did get it by dropping deep he would have nobody running in behind him.

There are things Rasmus should be doing better, which is knock off the CB battle bullshit and start running the channels and stretching the back line. But even then, we only have Bruno thats capable of playing accurate enough balls in behind. If anything, were ruining a promising players development. What do you think naturally starts to happen if you make 100 runs a game and get service 2 times? You stop making runs.

Do not take it as a pun man, yet I've said it before, the constant lists/or mentions of former great players plays against defending him, because it puts him on a direct comparison with players we already know how great they ended and also creates a direct comparison with other type of goalscorers that had also more in their bag than Rasmus as an overall player. And yes young 22 years old Harry more than probably would do more (it's not just about goals the critics he is having) than current Rasmus. The lad ain't the first CF, ST, merely forward, goalscorer that would need to drop deep in order to grab the ball in a disfunctional team and mentioning that ONLY R9 would do better under current state of the team, it's a way over the top hyperbole that just adds fuel to the fire.

 

[Ali Dia]

You mentioned Chido Obi. He’s 17 now. Would you be disappointed or satisfied with his progress if he is at Hojlund’s level in 5 years time?

If he was at Rasmus level of last season at 20/21 I'd be happy with that. Rasmus was very promising and showed a lot and was probably genuinely worth a lot of money. Maybe Chido is going to be a miles better player, maybe he'll be a bench player for a few years and be moved on? All I know is Rasmus is like a lad playing with the weight of the world on his shoulders right now and for some supporters he seems to be the whipping boy for the whole mess of this season.

 

[Rozay]

If he was at Rasmus level of last season at 20/21 I'd be happy with that. Rasmus was very promising and showed a lot and was probably genuinely worth a lot of money. Maybe Chido is going to be a miles better player, maybe he'll be a bench player for a few years and be moved on? All I know is Rasmus is like a lad playing with the weight of the world on his shoulders right now and for some supporters he seems to be the whipping boy for the whole mess of this season.

He’s not a whipping boy. There is no objective world where analysis of his performances this season are supposed to make for pretty reading. He has not received any worse than Rashford. For me, my football commentary is based upon what I see on the football pitch. If everyone approached it this way, I would imagine the unanimous view would be to be highly critical of Hojlund.

As for last season - yes, maybe Chido will be a far better player. The question was more of what the hope is, and I think that we all hope that Chido is a fair bit better than Hojlund was last season. I’d also like to point out that it is very possible to be a fair bit better and post the same numbers. I think Hojlund had a good spell last season, however, he was below par for most of it. I think we all know that, it’s just that we all, not unreasonably, mitigated his poor performances last season. But they were very much there, and I don’t think it was a great season by any stretch.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Actually, I am simply hell bent that a footballer playing regularly for Manchester United needs to perform at a level befitting of Manchester United. That’s it. The end. If a player plays for us at 14 or a player plays for us at 44 - there is no age requirement. Only a standard. 22 years old isn’t too young to be a good footballer. And in any case, if only 10 footballers in the world are good enough to play for United, then the 22 years olds here should come from the 10.

It’s perfectly okay if Hojlund is not good enough to play for us at 22. It’s perfectly okay for James Overy at 16 to not be good enough to play for us. It’s perfectly okay for Weghorst to not be good enough at 30. They don’t actually have to be playing for us though. It’s not about blaming Hojlund at all. It’s just about accountability and admitting that this level isn’t good enough for us, and his performances have frankly been unacceptable. Rashford’s became unacceptable, and we pusher him out. And that is a player who has a far more comprehensive body of work to show thst he is at least capable of the level. I don’t believe Hojlund has, despite 6 weeks of encouraging form last season. The vast majority of his time as a Manchester United player, and I mean at least 75% of the games he’s ever played for us, have been below standard. I don’t see how anyone who wants the best for us can defend that. Like, he doesn’t HAVE to be our striker. It doesn’t have to be him. It is very very easy to improve upon what he has given us, and it’s not about winning arguments on the internet - it should be an easy case for me to argue that his level is a long way from being acceptable.

As said, hell bent on it - just look at what you are saying. You are saying United has a minimum level a striker needs to perform at, whilst also simultaneously discounting his season last year where he was a 1 in 3 striker in the PL and did very well in the CL at the age of 21(he was also injured, as he was at the start of this year but that seems to drift from your thoughts conveniently). So unless you are paying £100m for someone proven to come in and be so good they can create from noting and finish everything i.e. Kane, you will not be signing anyone for United. You're living in the past man, we are barely an EL team and the management, quite rightly, in my opinion are taking the longer term view finally with transfers.

I know you are aware that the level of a 22 year old can be vastly different to that of a 25 year old, even to a 30+ year old when discussing CFs. Why you can't use that when making these statement, I do not know.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Ok, yes, I can't disagree with the above. Time will tell. One thing we do both agree with though I think, is that he is not a generational talent.

Seems highly unlikely but that shouldn't be the yardstick - the reality is I would be more than happy at his age if he just had a similar season to last, even if that was his eventual level and he ended his career getting around 15 goals a season that is probably an excellent return given we play with more goal scoring wide attackers. I feel like many people can't wrap their head around the reality of what United are right now, there's still this idea of 'we are Man United' and we should have the best attackers etc. Hojlund might completely bomb, he might end up at PAOK, or he might do well, likely somewhere in the middle but I will always defend younger players who are grafting and have shown us something that we can look at as tangible evidence + it is clear to anyone who watches us we aren't exactly making our attackers life easier (and they also aren't making each others life easier) which is what you'd expect when the front free are all early twenties and rash/erratic/inconsistent.

 

[Rozay]

As said, hell bent on it - just look at what you are saying. You are saying United has a minimum level a striker needs to perform at, whilst also simultaneously discounting his season last year where he was a 1 in 3 striker in the PL and did very well in the CL at the age of 21(he was also injured, as he was at the start of this year but that seems to drift from your thoughts conveniently). So unless you are paying £100m for someone proven to come in and be so good they can create from noting and finish everything i.e. Kane, you will not be signing anyone for United. You're living in the past man, we are barely an EL team and the management, quite rightly, in my opinion are taking the longer term view finally with transfers.

I know you are aware that the level of a 22 year old can be vastly different to that of a 25 year old, even to a 30+ year old when discussing CFs. Why you can't use that when making these statement, I do not know.

He wasn’t a 1 in 3 striker last season. He scored in about 7 league games, and posed no goal threat in the vast majority of games he’s played for us.

And aside from that, I’ve said on here many times that I don’t use a calculator to assess footballers. He scored 10 league goals last season. Another player could have scored 10 league goals and impressed me a lot more. Hojlund is not a particularly impressive striker, and has never looked to be a player who belongs at United. Whether he bundles 1 or 3 goals over the line at Molineux is not what determines my assessment. I’ve said before - Hojlund scored 16/17 goals in his first season, and Martial scored 17 goals in his first season. One season was FAR more impressive than the other. And that was supposedly Hojlund playing well. This season he’s been a complete disaster. Instead of just watching him and calling his performances, people have decided to make a plethora of excuses instead. Fine, let’s keep the excuses. It serves nobody except perhaps Hojlund’s feelings. It certainly doesn’t serve Manchester United.