Ralf’s 4-2-2-2

It’s shit. It won’t work and it doesn’t work, it’s like Oles suicidal 4-2-4 which ended his career. We are worse now than before with ole
 
I would've liked Ralf to try a different formation for today given that Newcastle have all the tape in the world to study our last few games and plan accordingly.

A 433 or 442 diamond surely suits our squad better.

Even if it does mean dropping some big name players.

De Gea
Dalot Varane Maguire Telles
McTominay
Bruno VdB
Greenwood Cavani Sancho

Or

De Gea
Dalot Varane Maguire Telles
Matic
McTominay VdB
Bruno
Greenwood Cavani
 
If we want control in midfield he better start playing midfielders that can pass and keep a ball.

VdB and Pogba the only ones that can't improve the lineup in that regard.
 
Dominos said:
Out of interest, why does Ronaldo necessitate a front 2? What is he not doing that Martial was doing for the previous 2 seasons?

I suspect there's an element of correlation over causation honestly. For a start we were shit under Ole the entire time, we were just scraping enough results to squeak out top 4. This season players downed tools and Ole tried different tactics that he didn't need to and years of poor coaching caught up with us, and it's resulted in this disastrous position we're in.
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He doesn't really give you an outball. He's not interested in playing with his back to goal, running channels etc. Basic centre forward stuff. If he has a weakness it's his hold up play.

So I think @Dante makes a good point there. Ralf is sticking another one up top to compensate for that.

He maybe can play up top on his own but in doing so you can forget building up play through or off your striker.
 
Marwood said:
He doesn't really give you an outball. He's not interested in playing with his back to goal, running channels etc. Basic centre forward stuff. If he has a weakness it's his hold up play.

So I think @Dante makes a good point there. Ralf is sticking another one up top to compensate for that.

He maybe can play up top on his own but in doing so you can forget building up play through or off your striker.
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Ralf needs to grow a pair and bench Ronaldo then. We need a couple of formations. One with Ronaldo and one without.

If we're better with the one without then it is what it is.
 
MrSingh2002 said:
Ralf needs to grow a pair and bench Ronaldo then. We need a couple of formations. One with Ronaldo and one without.

If we're better with the one without then it is what it is.
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Cavani up front in a 4-2-3-1 is what Ole had in mind at the start of the season.That's what I'd like to try.
 
We need 3 men in midfield. That is a fact. I don’t know how a new manger cannot see it
 
pocco said:
I think we can play it. We showed against Palace how it could work. I don't think you can have the likes of Rashford out wide though. I think Bruno and Sancho are our best options there, but the problem right now is they're both out of form and can't find consistency over 90 minutes to show it.

Against Palace we played a high line which somewhat alleviated the pressure on Mctominay and Fred, as they had the CBs and Fullbacks in vicinity to find passes or even make forward runs themselves. Their problems lie when the have to pass over bigger distances - we saw this under Ole. They're just not of that level. When we play compact they have shone and their weaknesses reduced and strengths highlighted.

For whatever reason the formation has stayed the same yet tactically we've been nowhere near as aggressive or brave as we were against Palace, where we practically had 10 players in their half at times.
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yeah without the high line it's not gonna work. Players gotta get more comfortable with Rangnick's system and trust that it's gonna work. If they get beat on some perfect low percentage long ball over the ball whatever, it happens. beats leaving that giant gap between where the midfield and defenders are that teams can play out of much easier.
 
——————De Gea
AWB - Bailly - Varane - Shaw
———————Fred
————-VDB - Pogba
Sancho - Ronaldo - Cavani

Could be a 442 diamond with Sancho at CAM if Shaw and AWB are played into form.

That’s the team for me.
•Two proactive center backs. Very important step to take in order to put the team on the front front.
•Shaw is our most important full back and should be played into form as he was responsible for creating many of our chances last season.
•AWB is miles better defensively than Dalot, and I suspect there isn’t much between them going forward.
•Fred in there for the legs, since there’s no one else better in our squad at this moment in time.
•VDB and Pogba should offer enough creativity in midfield.
•VDB looked great in the minutes he shared the pitch with Sancho, who looks to me our best ball carrier and playmaker despite losing the ball often.
•Ronaldo and Cavani are too good not convert some chances and free each other up in the box a few times in every match.

Bruno will need to reshuffle his ideas, and I’m sure he will come back stronger. Greenwood has an attitude problem that needs to be addressed. He’s an excellent, excellent player but there’s something wrong with his approach at the moment. Rashford off the bench is always a good idea. Put Amad in there too.
 
LJJT said:
We need 3 men in midfield. That is a fact. I don’t know how a new manger cannot see it
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As a neutral, this is what stands out to me too.

Just like Ole, Rangnick is trying to cram too many players on the pitch whose primary interest is scoring or assisting goals. Whatever the formation, with very few exceptions a balanced team will only have (at most) three such players on the pitch at a time. Woodward or whoever makes the signing decisions now created headaches for the manager by buying both Ronaldo and Sancho because a properly balanced team is only going to include three out of Ronaldo, Bruno, Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood, and Cavani. Leaving three of them out will create some unhappy faces in the dressing room but the answer isn't to line up in a 4-2-4 type formation where you have nobody to link play and make the team functional. You either need a true third central midfielder (ie, not Bruno, who really wants to be more of a second striker) or one of the wingers needs to be a wide midfielder who helps a lot in the buildup and does a lot of running off the ball.
 
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I think it's more to do with work rate than shape. No shape will work when your attackers put in that kind of effort.
 
Manny said:
I think it's more to do with work rate than shape. No shape will work when your attackers put in that kind of effort.
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Yeah, think this is close to it. Looking to fit in our fittest players into an accommodating formation.

It's kinda shocking how off the pace we seem. Every side we play looks more cohesive and better prepped, and this was before RR took over.
 
The 4222 is clearly something we're not used to playing, but the selection has been problematic for such a formation too. If we have Ronaldo as one of the two up front, Greenwood being the other striker in a style of play that necessitates pressing makes the partnership largely redundant. Im not saying I'm yet for the 4222 but if we are to play it then I'd like to see...

.....Fred...McTom...
..Sancho....Bruno...
..Cavani..Ronaldo..

If Ronaldos being an automatic pick
 
Having a formation dependent on Cavani staying fit doesn't seem to be the smartest thing.
 
Against CP we pushed up the field and cramped up the space. We now don't do that at all. We just stroll up.
This would work if it's played the way it's supposed to.
He needs to drop Maguire and play Varane with Lindelof.
Plus why are our defenders trying to by pass our midfield? I mean the two row of midfield players?
 
That was one of the most direct football I've seen, I'll give him that. Seems like we want to play simple football, just pass it forward instead of focusing on buildup and finding angles.
Anyway, not a fan, we always look better in a more traditional setup, and I seriously doubt our forwards will adjust and benefit in that setup.
 
OmarUnited4ever said:
I have a question for the discussion.

would Ralfs 4222 work with City current players? or Liverpool's? Chelsea's?

or maybe a better question is can Ralf make his 4222 work with the current players of the top 3?
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He can't get this crowd to work against the bottom half of the table. There is something wrong inside the dressing room and he and his coaches has to find the answer before he can hand over to the new manager at end of season. IF anyone wants the job.
 
yet people say the formation isn’t an issue

 
Sunny Jim said:
I don’t understand this formation. I'm not sure why we're overloading the middle of the pitch. I don't think we have defenders able to provide width and stability.
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the worst part of it is lack the basic technique to play these quick 1-2 passes. I genuinely can’t remember the last time we tried it and it came off. We always misplace it, do it too weak or heavy, we just look out of control
 
For the kind of football RR wants us to play, 4-2-2-2 is optimal - maximizes the potential of causing damage on transitions, provides sufficient vertical passing options. However, for the players we have, it's not the best formation. Our two midfielders arent the best at progressive passes, and Rashford is better at carrying the ball and cutting in inside than as a wide #10. And this is what we've been seeing in the past 4 games as well. We're losing the ball too often and the strikers are hardly getting enough chances. And with this formation and style, when things don't work out, there is no plan B - keep the possession, make the pitch wider and then cut open the defence.

There's also the bit around us not getting the most out of Bruno now -we were getting less this season since Ron joined, but in the past few games, he's pretty much lost. There's also the bit around Ronaldo not being in the box in a lot of occasions when you need him there because he's come too deep and there's no way he can make the sprint back in time to create an impact in those attacks.

Like Ole this season, RR's biggest challenge is to find balance - but I don't think 4-2-2-2 is the answer - and even if it is, I doubt it would be with a front 4 of Greenwood, Ronaldo, Bruno and Rashford.
 
Dante said:
Cavani up front in a 4-2-3-1 is what Ole had in mind at the start of the season.That's what I'd like to try.
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That was what everyone wanted and Sancho was signed to be on the right in a 4231 or 433.

We need go get over the Ronaldo hype and treat him like any other player who can be subbed off or rotated.

If anything it will bring the best out of him instead of him just getting through games.
 
Leanshig said:
You can't play all of Fernandes, Rashford, Greenwood and Ronaldo.
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You can but Bruno needs to play centrally like in the second half yesterday either that or keep him in the two attacking positions and have DVB in there b/c he can actually pass a ball

the problem is that if you play all four it leaves out Sancho who is better ON the ball than any of those 4

Main issue is that only Ronaldo was trying to make runs in behind the back four yesterday while the other three were constantly checking to the ball. This system is predicated around the front two getting behind the back four as often as possible.

Just look at the number of times, especially in the first half, that Ronaldo would make that channel run and he would get the ball played into the space behind. Simply b/c fred, scott, maguire and varane can't or wouldn't make that pass
 
Pogba is a big miss in this formation. He's the only player that can pass from deep consistently.

Fred, McTominay, Rashford and Greenwood are all fairly limited with passing. It's why we lose possession so much. Bruno is very erratic too and I'm not sure if he can play in a deeper role.

While Pogba is out, VDB and Sancho really need to be in the starting 11 as much as possible.
 
Borys said:
That was one of the most direct football I've seen, I'll give him that. Seems like we want to play simple football, just pass it forward instead of focusing on buildup and finding angles.
Anyway, not a fan, we always look better in a more traditional setup, and I seriously doubt our forwards will adjust and benefit in that setup.
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That's not how we want to play, it's a side effect of the fact we've been playing that way for the past few years. We want to be quick in the buildup not skip it altogether. Take a look at some possessions from Bosskeano's post above, all our short passing moves broke down, we didn't see them because they all failed but not from a lack of trying. We won't see this till If we ever click we can expect to see a lot of quick 1-2 exchanges like Rangnick's old teams but we probably won't see it after only a couple training sessions. Being able to play through defences will be huge in breaking deep teams. Even our pressing yesterday was the worst of all of Rangnick's games, It's like they unlearned everything we worked on in the covid hiatus.

I think if Ten Haag takes over he too will have to undo a lot of old habits in our players' passing preferences. A guy like Bruno for example is either assisting or losing possession. Not literally but he needs to adjust somewhat as it's not conducive for controlling games.
 
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bosskeano said:
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Some of those passes would have taken something quite special, but the one at 1.20 is utterly baffling.

Ball drops nicely, no pressure, aces to aim for, two players making the run. To overhit that was horrible.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Bruno Pogba/Sancho
Ronaldo Cavani
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We certainly need to think about this current formation as we don't have the full back attackers to do it well.

But if we do carry on as we are, what you suggest with McFred behind would have to be the way.
 
I also don't believe we're trying to be a team that passes over the top. I think there's some conflating what we've been doing with what we're trying to do. This is what we're trying to look like.



If anything our strikers aren't providing the short option well enough to make any of this possible. I can see us changing our team selection soon and even ditching the formation altogether to enable this. In that tweet video above at 00:20 Ronaldo or at least someone else should be coming towards Rashford to provide a 1-2 option to release him down the right. Ronaldo instead is out of position because he only had his mind set on getting a long ball from Dalot.
 
Greck said:
I also don't believe we're trying to be a team that passes over the top. I think there's some conflating what we've been doing with what we're trying to do. This is what we're trying to look like.

If anything our strikers aren't providing the short option well enough to make any of this possible. I can see us changing our team selection soon and even ditching the formation altogether to enable this. In that tweet video above at 00:20 Ronaldo or at least someone else should be coming towards Rashford to provide a 1-2 option to release him down the right. Ronaldo instead is out of position because he only had his mind set on getting a long ball from Dalot.
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We are just not fit enough to play like this. Look at all the running players trying to get a pass. We need that but our players are so unfit compared to this.
 
Sandikan said:
Some of those passes would have taken something quite special, but the one at 1.20 is utterly baffling.

Ball drops nicely, no pressure, aces to aim for, two players making the run. To overhit that was horrible.
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just looking at those options...

.20 seconds in rashford goes wide to pull out the fullback...dalot has to shape that ball in behind to ronaldo who's exploiting that space
.38 seconds in Fred receives a ball under no pressure...ronaldo 1v1 against the CB and should be putting that ball over the top as they are 40yds from goal. Fred received and turned the wrong way so he couldn't play it.
.59 second in Fred receives and once again receives and turns the wrong way and misses another great run by ronaldo into the channel which could have created a scoring chance
you mentioned the one at 1:20 Rashford playing it straight out right between bruno and ronaldo
last one was around 2:10 with Cavani missing ronaldo in the box after their keeper dropped the ball

those are just minor examples of where we could have exploited space in the channel and space behind when Ronaldo was looking to get in behind considering Mason always went short
 
Greck said:
I also don't believe we're trying to be a team that passes over the top. I think there's some conflating what we've been doing with what we're trying to do. This is what we're trying to look like.



If anything our strikers aren't providing the short option well enough to make any of this possible. I can see us changing our team selection soon and even ditching the formation altogether to enable this. In that tweet video above at 00:20 Ronaldo or at least someone else should be coming towards Rashford to provide a 1-2 option to release him down the right. Ronaldo instead is out of position because he only had his mind set on getting a long ball from Dalot.
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what is the major difference between what we play and what you see in that video???
 
Give it time!

You shouldn’t just bin an idea because it hasn’t turned United into a prime Barca or City.

You could easily just call it a narrow 442, formations are only a small part of the puzzle.
 
bosskeano said:
what is the major difference between what we play and what you see in that video???
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There's a lot, way too much to discuss in detail, in movement, execution, short passing chemistry etc. In a month or two we'll look dramatically different in all of these things. We won't be Liverpool but we'll be better than yesterday. The first couple games of new managers always has teams playing some weird amalgam of the old manager's style and the new one. We'll be different when we get more training time under our belt.
 
Greck said:
There's a lot, way too much to discuss in detail, in movement, execution, short passing chemistry etc. In a month or two we'll look dramatically different in all of these things. We won't be Liverpool but we'll be better than yesterday.
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simple answer actually...as you said execution of the passes. Red Bulls had guys that could make those passes and we don't currently.
 
Greck said:
That's not how we want to play, it's a side effect of the fact we've been playing that way for the past few years. We want to be quick in the buildup not skip it altogether. Take a look at some possessions from Bosskeano's post above, all our short passing moves broke down, we didn't see them because they all failed but not from a lack of trying. We won't see this till If we ever click we can expect to see a lot of quick 1-2 exchanges like Rangnick's old teams but we probably won't see it after only a couple training sessions. Being able to play through defences will be huge in breaking deep teams. Even our pressing yesterday was the worst of all of Rangnick's games, It's like they unlearned everything we worked on in the covid hiatus.

I think if Ten Haag takes over he too will have to undo a lot of old habits in our players' passing preferences. A guy like Bruno for example is either assisting or losing possession. Not literally but he needs to adjust somewhat as it's not conducive for controlling games.
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The way I see they failed because those were difficult, forced passes, as there were no better options. The movement is poor, players don't make themselves available for the pass, Rashford and Bruno (the two between midfield and strikers) are focused on the final pass rather than the build up play (you said pretty much the same in your post). I don't think we'll see a lot of one-twos if we continue playing Rashford, Bruno and Ronaldo. It's not their strength.
I hope you're right, but I've not seen any improvement yet, in fact we've been truly awful in the games under Ralf in new system. And we've had rather weak opponents so it's worrying.
To me the Ralf's 4222 is just another attempt of trying to fit players into a system which doesn't fit them.
 
Ralf saying they went 4132 at the start of the second half yesterday after making those subs
 
This 4222 thing dont add up for me:
• It gives us no proper central line,
• it messes up Brunos role (which is hughly important to us)
• it gives no natural witdh the oppnoents have to contend with
• for a front pair to work, they need to move like a dynamic duo, but now we also have another two guys between the lines — in spaces the front duo also need to be able to move to make room for each other
• since we dont have wingers, we only get crosses in from the full backs
• when we get a break against us and the full backs are pushed high, in reality we are only left with two central defenders
• if the opponent double or triple on one of the sides, like Arsenal are doing with Odegaard, our whole system is forced off balance
• this system offer no safety net when we are off balance, or when we in balance loose the ball or get dribbled past

Maybe, I just dont understand this 4222-system. Can someone please tell me the benfits of:
1) 4-2-2-2 in general and the school of thought behind it (is it somehow just 4-4-2 with high and narrow wingers? — if so why dont we just go for a narrow 4-4-2 to get the simple stuff good, before we go for the complex stuff?)
2) why this system suits us, gives an edge on our opponents and how this will bring out the best in our players?
3) like any system, there is kryptonite against it. Which system exploits the weakness in 4222 the most?

Note: some are saying formations dont matter. Well, then you never played football. Yes, it effects running, becouse you’ll be runing of a postion - not the other way around. If you feel your running is ineffective - it will do something negative too you.

But, for you guys that have never played - it is the same as if your company should tell you to stop what your doing and then find another way, with allmost the same people, in different order, to complete the same task. Of course it is possible, and it might even be better. But, dont comme on and tell me it dosent matter.
 
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RuudTom83 said:
Give it time!

You shouldn’t just bin an idea because it hasn’t turned United into a prime Barca or City.

You could easily just call it a narrow 442, formations are only a small part of the puzzle.
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The question here is that how much time and how many matches we need to sacrifice until his system works. He is only interim manager so his time is limited and his aim is supposed to be both getting us top 4 and doing well in champions league at the end of the season.
 
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