This formation relies on having great attack full backs for width and a ball playing CM’s which we have neither
Ralf’s 4-2-2-2
- Thread starter Desert Eagle
- Start date
Is tonight the end of the formation? We look much better with proper wide players imo, although caveat that with Burnley looking poor.
Rangnick wasn't the manager there.
Drop the 2nd striker and play an additional midfielder, then it has potential to work.
Can't wait for this shite experiment to end. At least we know it won't be anything we play beyond the summer. Let's just hope we don't sacrifice top 4 by playing this way.
The formation’s irrelevant, the players don’t even know when to pass and what they’re building towards. Whatever his instructions on playing more directly are, they clearly haven’t landed with this bunch.
I'm not seeing how this gives us the control he talks about at all. So far it's just a 4-4-2 with the wingers stood in no man's land and huge gaps when defending.
We're not pressing high up. No coordination and intensity when the Opposition is playing it out from the back/has the ball.
Why?
Fitness issues? Age related due to Cavani/Ronaldo?
Why?
Fitness issues? Age related due to Cavani/Ronaldo?
Pressing, ya depressing
There’s no chance we can play this formation against better teams. This was like a traditional 442 with wingers but in modern football this formation is dead because of how exposed it can leave you in midfield and on the counter attack. There’s no way we could play this formation against any of the top 6 teams.
It needs to stop, we absolutely have zero control and are once again relying on individual brilliance. Against the top teams we would get anhilated!
I'd say it is until he is able to bring more players in to play how he wants
Said in the other thread. Looks like we've abandoned the press for now, we just dropped into a classic 442 shape without the ball. Simple, straight forward.
Maybe Ralph just wants to get points on the board for now without overcomplicating it.
But not far off what we were doing with Carrick in his 3 games.
Maybe Ralph just wants to get points on the board for now without overcomplicating it.
But not far off what we were doing with Carrick in his 3 games.
Maybe Ole was on to something with passion
Ragnick slowly turning into Ole ?
I don't think we played the 4222 tonight did we?
Greenwood and Sancho were never near each other.
Greenwood and Sancho were never near each other.
Nah, was a classic 442 with Cavani dropping in a little.
Looked more like a conservative 4-4-2 to me
It wasn't. It was a 442 mid-block. We pressed when they got into our half. I think it actually works, but we just need a bit more energy from our DM to make our control of get like this more constant.
Ole was trying to tell us that these guys were lazy fecks and that all talk of tactics are useless when you are this lazy.
Now Rangnick is telling us the same
Or quickly
Who are the bad players? Half the team tonight was bought by Ole. Rangnick is also yet to lose a game so let's not get it twisted on what the comments are about. We're trying to be a team that can win 3-1 and control the game not win playing on the counter. By Ole standards tonight was a good result and our recent 'unbeaten' run is fine.Ole was trying to tell us that these guys were lazy fecks and that all talk of tactics are useless when you are this lazy.
Now Rangnick is telling us the same
Last edited:
I think he’s trying to sort the defence out before doing anything too radical, but I’m not sure how this is going to go against a half decent team.
It’s almost like he’s worked out he needs a partner for Ronnie, but doesn’t want to do a normal 352 as we wouldn’t be able to get Sancho, Rashford etc in the team.
It’s almost like he’s worked out he needs a partner for Ronnie, but doesn’t want to do a normal 352 as we wouldn’t be able to get Sancho, Rashford etc in the team.
They're not bad, just 'without passion or desire'
As for who this may be, I dunno take your pick. Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Ronaldo, Sancho, Pogba, Matic, AWB, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof and De Gea have all looked like they can't be bothered to fight for any balls at some point in the last 2 years
We’ve played the three worse teams in the league and to be brutally honest have barely looked the better side or had significant control in any game.
I don’t think it can work mainly due to the lack of desire and running power this team have. I feel like this system needs runners. That’s why it suited Leipzig and Southampton.
Our midfield looks wide open and outnumbered a lot of the time. The only positive I’ve seen is that it brings someone closer to Ronaldo and that’s it.
I’m not convinced it’s worked that well defensively. When we start playing good teams we’ll be carved open.
Wolves is the first real test….
I don’t think it can work mainly due to the lack of desire and running power this team have. I feel like this system needs runners. That’s why it suited Leipzig and Southampton.
Our midfield looks wide open and outnumbered a lot of the time. The only positive I’ve seen is that it brings someone closer to Ronaldo and that’s it.
I’m not convinced it’s worked that well defensively. When we start playing good teams we’ll be carved open.
Wolves is the first real test….
The bolded didn't play tonight. De Gea definitely doesn't look like he doesnt care. One of our best this season. Most of the rest were brought in by Ole so he could only have himself to blame for being a part of the problem.
On topic, I'd ditch the 2nd striker for an extra midfielder. The forwards aren't anywhere close to form and the midfielders don't have the holding ability or creativity to compensate.
Last season he was horrid though and that's the whole point. If De Gea was godly last season would we be closer to the title? They are never on song together, there's always somebody who will let you down in terms of passion or desire.
no I wouldn’t go with 442 either, my point was that we look better with wide players than we did withthe narrow formation we initially used.
I’d expect Bruno to come in, in place of Cavani and play as a 10, I personally would play Bruno deeper so we’re more compact in CM but that’s what I’d expect to happen, with us maintaining width.
By using 4222 or whatever, the purpose is to overload the middle of pitch, hence we could predict the oppos goin for the flank, press them there (or trapped, if they can't switch).
That's probably the nature of the control he talked/intent to. But in order to do so, our team should control themselves first.
In his post match press conference I believe Rangnick referred to it as 442 out of possession and 424 in possession.
Whatever it is, playing 2 strikers and a 2 man midfield I do worry we'll be horribly exposed when we start to play the better teams. We couldn't have asked for a kinder fixture list so far, and in that run we've managed to get outplayed by Norwich and Newcastle who will be in the championship next season.
Having said that, formation is the least of our problems when our players can't pass or control a football. I'm not sure any change in shape is going to teach our players how not to give the ball away so cheaply.
Rangnick's system at United is still a work in progress, but it showed some promise during the Burnley match. Still too far from what it needs to be to get United to the fourth spot.
To be honest with you, I never understood why people took that take. The 442 worked for us till the very end of Fergie's tenure despite other formations existing. 2012- 2013 was us using a 442 and we won the league by a mile. Us deviating away from it is where we started struggling. The only thing with the 442 is that I don't think it's wise to have such a high defensive line with it in the modern day. The benefit gained for the width and numbers may be better exploited with an average defensive line rather than a high one.
Despite the formation, its the system Rangnick uses that determines how effective the formation will be. We play far more directly and our players are far more proactive on the ball. The width that we generated yesterday allowed for a lot of one on one situations which our wingers were able to exploit to decent success yesterday. I think with Bruno coming back, we will probably switch back to a 4231/4411 variant in the not to distant future, with similar elements to what we saw against Burnley. Bruno already has a very offensive game, so replacing Cavani in the lineup would not be too big of a difference. As long as we can continue to keep the width we had against Burnley, I can see good things for our offensive game plan with more practice. One other major feature of this game was that we hardly played through the middle. We didn't have situations where our attackers were camped in high central zones waiting for a key pass ( that would never come) to find them. Instead the team was spread out, which I liked. We played through different areas of the field which was nice to see, in a very decisive manner.
The area of concern here would be in our defence. I think Matic can cover that position for some games, but I don't think the energy he provides is sufficient to plug gaps in the middle that would be created by our width consistently. It can work in our home games against the Burnley's or Wolves, but until we have a younger, more energetic DM, we may be best served playing the 4222 or other narrow varients like the 4312 away from home or in big games.
Totally agree. We are far too open.
It worked against a heavily depleted Burnley team but any formation probably would have. No other top club uses the system and I can't see why we would other than to suit Ronaldo. Ole was criticised for his use of the system and I think Ralph should be too if he continues to use it
I like Ralf, but think he’s taking a big risk with the 4-2-2-2 as the side doesn’t have the legs to cover and press the flanks, and the full backs don’t give enough going forward, unless Shaw is on form. The squad is poorly built for any formation, with the Ronaldo signing making the issue worse, but 4-3-3 does seem the best formation to me as you have 3 players to cover each flank. It also means Sancho / Greenwood / Rashford are not having to cover masses of space when out of possession.
Last edited by a moderator:
I have to be honest, I have no idea how is this formation supposed to work for us. I just don't see any benefit to it with the players we have.
We would've won against Burnley whatever formation we used, imo we will continue playing the 4222 until the first bad result and I think this is getting closer. No more shite teams on our schedule.
We would've won against Burnley whatever formation we used, imo we will continue playing the 4222 until the first bad result and I think this is getting closer. No more shite teams on our schedule.
We have tried many formations in the last few years and none have worked consistently. We have used it in 3/4 games and they haven't much of a chance to work on it with covid and Carrington being closed as well as a game every few days, maybe we should give it chance.
Just maybe its time for the players to step up and make formations work.
Just maybe its time for the players to step up and make formations work.
With the players we have I just don’t get why we don’t play a 4-3-3 with Fernandes dropping into a three with the licence to come from deep like Lampard used to for Chelsea, we’d still need a pure defensive midfielder because Matic’s legs went a few years ago to play more than one game a week or 15 minutes to close a game out.
Use Greenwood and Sancho from wide to support Ronaldo but playing further forward then they do in a 4-2-3-1 so rather than covering space for the two man midfield they’re main support for the central striker, playing AWB and Shaw would cover space out wide if Fernandes pushed forward.
None of Greenwood, Sancho or Rashford should be playing as a narrow pair behind two strikers as they’re not built for playing central and are at their best coming from wide cutting in or beating their man and there’s zero creativity from a two man midfield playing behind.
Use Greenwood and Sancho from wide to support Ronaldo but playing further forward then they do in a 4-2-3-1 so rather than covering space for the two man midfield they’re main support for the central striker, playing AWB and Shaw would cover space out wide if Fernandes pushed forward.
None of Greenwood, Sancho or Rashford should be playing as a narrow pair behind two strikers as they’re not built for playing central and are at their best coming from wide cutting in or beating their man and there’s zero creativity from a two man midfield playing behind.
Only benefit to it really is getting Ronaldo and Cavani in together. Doesn't suit anyone else though