Ralf’s 4-2-2-2

[Hammondo]

It doesn't work. Why do we have to play to a system that doesn't suit our strengths?

System comes first, not the players. The problem is he's hiding from making the difficult player questions.

 

[Cassidy]

Far too narrow, fullbacks not providing width enough.

 

[DWelbz19]

If he wants to play this system, he actually needs to play players that suit it.

• Fernandes is absolutely not a wide attacking midfielder. He just cannot carry the football. He’s down there with our CBs as the worst dribbler in the side.
• Rashford cannot play any other position than on the left. And even there he’s not been particularly great in over a year.
• Ronaldo will average about 35 touches a match most days so his partner needs to be one who’s going to massively compensate for that.
• Fullbacks just need to be a lot better, but there’s not much he can do there. Other than actually play Shaw

 

[bond19821982]

What facts you‘re talking absolute rubbish mate

Howe isnt getting results no matter how much they’re trying, the commentator just said there’s only one team in history at this stage of the season with less points than Newcastle yet they just played us off the park and you’re somehow defending this system?

Crap against both palace and Norwich as well and it will probably be crap against Burnley

Care to read my post again please ? Since Howe took over, they have only lost against City and has 2 draws, one win in 4 matches at home. St James Park is an awful place to go and is always our banana skin.

We have been bad ? Ofcourse yes, but should we be flooring them down - not really !

So let's stick to facts.

 

[Hammondo]

Guardiola can

He would never play those 4, opposite of how he does things.

 

[::sonny::]

Too complicated tactics for this players

If you're in trouble go 442, the first football rule

 

[criticalanalysis]

Either formation needs to change or Ralf makes some drastic changes in the playing personnel.

Any half decent side with defensive shape essentially makes the 4-2-2-2 a 4-2-4 as your Rashfords and Bruno are just not interested in build up play or rather have been instructed to stay too far up.

Ralf needs to learn quick that we whilst we are lacking intensity in pressing and ball transition, there's need to be more nuance to it. We're rushing our play and trying to implement things that are far too easy to counter.

Let's keep the ball more and play quicker passing than going vertical so much. For that to happen we need to be able to stretch teams and you'd need a 4-3-3 and to drop fecking Telles, who is just bad.

Dalot I can understand because at least he has some quality in his passing and crossing even if he's not the strongest defensively.

 

[united for life]

System comes first, not the players. The problem is he's hiding from making the difficult player questions.

so let’s play a system that doesn’t suit us, finish out of the top four (i don’t think anyone around here talks about winning the league anyway), miss out on signing top players (who would want to play in the europa league if we get there) and on top of all of that, have a complete squad rebuild.

not to mention, ralf is an interim manager

 

[Hammondo]

so let’s play a system that doesn’t suit us, finish out of the top four (i don’t think anyone around here talks about winning the league anyway), miss out on signing top players (who would want to play in the europa league if we get there) and on top of all of that, have a complete squad rebuild.

not to mention, ralf is an interim manager

It just doesn't suit the lineups he's picked, we have lineups it can work with.

 

[Foxbatt]

when you play Greenwood in that position he is not going to do much. When you play Rashford in any position he is not going to do much either. I feel his mistake was playing both Rashford at all and the Greenwood in a different position.

 

[Hammondo]

why? Look at our squad. Lots of talent, lots of good players. We need a DM and possibly reinforcements at the back. This shouldn't take another 8 years

Bullshit, our squad is poor, massively overrated, unbalanced, with players who suit our of date football.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Hopefully he doesn’t pick the same starting XI again. Second half was a little better but momentum died suddenly again.

Ronaldo fits nowhere in this either.

 

[Greck]

System comes first, not the players. The problem is he's hiding from making the difficult player questions.

Gotta agree. We might even have gotten a better result if the first couple subs didn't go towards fixing that horrible start, which was a repetition of all the poor performers from the last game in the same positions they failed.

 

[Skills]

If he wants to play this system, he actually needs to play players that suit it.

• Fernandes is absolutely not a wide attacking midfielder. He just cannot carry the football. He’s down there with our CBs as the worst dribbler in the side.
• Rashford cannot play any other position than on the left. And even there he’s not been particularly great in over a year.
• Ronaldo will average about 35 touches a match most days so his partner needs to be one who’s going to massively compensate for that.
• Fullbacks just need to be a lot better, but there’s not much he can do there. Other than actually play Shaw

Some of its just common sense stuff though.

The midfield two can't/shouldn't be breaking forward in this set up. You're just leaving yourself too porous down the middle.

 

[Renegade]

What’s wrong with 433?

 

[united for life]

Bullshit, our squad is poor, massively overrated, unbalanced, with players who suit our of date football.

have some manners and respect other opinions. My opinion is not bullshit. You can state your views in a better way. What a healthy discussion that was

 

[Dante]

The last couple of seasons have been built on having a compact back 6, with Bruno given the freedom to pull the strings in the hole, and a pacey front 3 getting onto lots of throughballs from Bruno's passes.

As difficult as it is to admit this, the wheels started to come off after Ronaldo joined. He necessitates a front 2. This means the manager either take bodies out of midfield or bodies out of the wide areas.

Under Ole, we pushed Bruno forward and took a body out of midfield. Under Rangnick, we've taken 2 bodies out of the flanks and put them into unnatural positions in the half space. In both situations, we've needed creativity from the back 6 to compensate for the lack of creators in other vital areas. But that doesn't suit the natural game of any of our back 6 players.

Since the back 6 has started getting tasked with doing more with the ball, they're getting increasingly pulled out of position (McFred got pulled out of position under Ole and Dalot/Telles are getting pulled out of position under Rangnick). That's at the heart of our defensive issues.

So what we have is a team needs to play to the strengths to our GOAT player, but a GOAT players who plays to the weaknesses of our squad.

The problem isn't insurmountable. But if we're sticking with Ronaldo, that'll mean spending big on CMs and WBs in the next couple of windows. Or else, dropping Ronaldo and going back to the counter-attacking 4231 that got us consecutive 3rd and 2nd place finishes in the last two seasons.

 

[Hammondo]

Gotta agree. We might even have gotten a better result if the first couple subs didn't go towards fixing that horrible start, which was a repetition of all the poor performers from the last game in the same positions they failed.

I think our manager has not shown the balls to pick the best players for his system.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Not sure whats the point in discussing the system when players cant make simple passes?

 

[DWelbz19]

Some of its just common sense stuff though.

The midfield two can't/shouldn't be breaking forward in this set up. You're just leaving yourself too porous down the middle.

Is that a Rangnick set up special? I feel like that’s something he probably did with Bundesliga/Austrian league tax with his Red Bull warriors

 

[Fanta Stick]

You need world class full backs to make this system work.

 

[Hammondo]

The last couple of seasons have been built on having a compact back 6, with Bruno given the freedom to pull the strings in the hole, and a pacey front 3 getting onto lots of throughballs from Bruno's passes.

As difficult as it is to admit this, the wheels started to come off after Ronaldo joined. He necessitates a front 2. This means the manager either take bodies out of midfield or bodies out of the wide areas.

Under Ole, we pushed Bruno forward and took a body out of midfield. Under Rangnick, we've taken 2 bodies out of the flanks and put them into unnatural positions in the half space. In both situations, you need creativity from the back 6 to compensate for the lack of creators in vital areas. But that doesn't suit the natural game of any of our back 6 players.

Because the back 6 is getting tasked with doing more with the ball, they're getting increasingly pulled out of position (McFred got pulled out of position under Ole and Dalot/Telles are getting pulled out of position under Rangnick).

So what we have is a team needs to play to the strengths to our GOAT player, but a GOAT players who plays to the weaknesses of our squad.

The problem isn't insurmountable. But if we're sticking with Ronaldo, that'll mean spending big on CMs and WBs in the next couple of windows. Or else, dropping Ronaldo and going back to the counter-attacking 4231 that got us consecutive 3rd and 2nd place finishes in the last two seasons.

That way of playing was very limited, and I am not supporting the current football but we did need a change.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

So far, I don't like this formation. I would rather see us play a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3. Mind you, this is new to the players as well so it's not going to happen over night. I'd like to see a change in the players though. Ralf is using basically the same players as Ole, and particularly he is using McFred. Can VdB please get a run of games in midfield? And the subs today were brutal. We had absolutely no balance. It's great to have goal scorers out there but you need to get them the ball. Today was fantasy football and Ralf looked like an amateur with that second half team selection. 1 midfielder? Give your head a shake Ralf

 

[Dante]

That way of playing was very limited, and I am not supporting the current football but we did need a change.

We tried to when we bought Sancho. And if either Camavinga or Trippier had signed, United would have looked a totally different proposition.

 

[Greck]

I think our manager has not shown the balls to pick the best players for his system.

I hoped he'd skip that dysfunctional strike partnership if he was going to persist with the 4222. Ronaldo and Rashford didn't combine and somehow do so much running without getting on the end of chances. Cavani came on and even though the performance was ass managed to get on the end of every opportunity just fine. Bruno is still Mr Hollywood. No one actually played well but some play their roles better than others.

 

[Hammondo]

We tried to when we bought Sancho. And if either Camavinga or Trippier had signed, United would have looked a totally different proposition.

It's not just about players, our style of play was ancient, just get it up front as quickly as possible, mindless play.

 

[Turnip]

System comes first, not the players. The problem is he's hiding from making the difficult player questions.

I disagree, you've got to find a compromise to get them best out of both. If he can't modify his system to suit the players he actually has that's a very worrying characteristic for a manager unless they have unlimited funds to sign exactly who they need, which we all know isn't going to happen. You can't go through a whole season playing to a system that isn't working with your players, you have to change your system to suit else tonight is the best we can hope for until there's a lot of transfers. That's literally his job, get the best of the players on the pitch.

 

[Bwuk]

Formation doesn’t suit our squad at all.

 

[Hammondo]

I disagree, you've got to find a compromise to get them best out of both. If he can't modify his system to suit the players he actually has that's a very worrying characteristic for a manager unless they have unlimited funds to sign exactly who they need, which we all know isn't going to happen. You can't go through a whole season playing to a system that isn't working with your players, you have to change your system to suit else tonight is the best we can hope for until there's a lot of transfers. That's literally his job, get the best of the players on the pitch.

Changing the players comes before changing the system, just look at the top managers, system comes first and none are scared of dropping big named players.

 

[stevoc]

System comes first, not the players. The problem is he's hiding from making the difficult player questions.

Like feck it does.

Especially if you're an interim manager brought into to turn a team around quickly and get points on the board. Play a system that suits the best players you have not a niche system that suits players you don't have.

 

[Hammondo]

Like feck it does.

Especially if you're an interim manager brought into to turn a team around quickly and get points on the board. Play a system that suits the best players you have not a niche system that suits players you don't have.

Managers are not experts in different systems, they are experts in their systems.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Like feck it does.

Especially if you're an interim manager brought into to turn a team around quickly and get points on the board. Play a system that suits the best players you have not a niche system that suits players you don't have.

Which system will suit them? Do you think any system in football can hide your performance if you cant pass or control the ball?

 

[Turnip]

Changing the players comes before changing the system, just look at the top managers, system comes first and none are scared of dropping big named players.

I can't remember another top manager's system looking so hopeless. I'm not panicking because we're only a few games into his career here, but it's hard to defend the system at all so far.

I'm not arguing he shouldn't be dropping some players either, but saying he has to stick to his system regardless of having personnel to suit it is absolute nonesense. Performance on the pitch comes first, you adjust both the players and system to achieve that.

 

[Real Name]

He has an idea how to play, he'll try it with these players and if it doesnt work he'll change it. I dont think he should change the formation asap, we must learn the basics beforehand, pressing and how to pass the fekin ball. Also we dont have a player who can control the tempo and slow down the game when needed.
No need to panic so early in his tenure and already call this formation bad.

 

[stevoc]

Managers are not experts in different systems, they are experts in their systems.

Are you telling me Rangnick with decades of experience as a coach can only field a team in one formation? Really?

I doubt that, from what I've read and seen of his teams over the years he's made a lot of use of 433 also.

 

[Greck]

If Pep or Haag joined no one would expect them to play kick and run football because of the one track horses on the team. I'm all for changing the actual formation though but whatever system the manager prefers is the one the players have to adjust to or they should be sold. The system and formation aren't necessarily same.

 

[stevoc]

Which system will suit them? Do you think any system in football can hide your performance if you cant pass or control the ball?

A variation of 4231 or 433 obviously. That's what we've been playing the last few years and it's highly likely the next permanent manager will also employ one or the other.

Do you see many or any top teams using 4222 on a regular basis?

 

[Real Name]

A variation of 4231 or 433 obviously. That's what we've been playing the last few years and it's highly likely the next permanent manager will also employ one or the other.

That did us a ton of good.

 

[pratyush_utd]

A variation of 4231 or 433 obviously. That's what we've been playing the last few years and it's highly likely the next permanent manager will also employ one or the other.

Do you see many or any top teams using 4222 on a regular basis?

Any system is as good as the players who are playing.

I find this discussion bit pointless at this moment as this performance wasnt on formation. No formation will work if we dont do basic things like passing and holding the ball

 

[stevoc]

That did us a ton of good.

So was the formation the main reason we struggled then?